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The Gathering Storm 2 Discussion Thread
Topic Started: May 23 2011, 06:57 PM (2,639 Views)
Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
The Professor,May 26 2011
10:23 PM
No restarts.

We are co-GMing. We're going to need to come to some sort of agreement here.
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The Professor

House of Lords
GrenadierSchube,May 26 2011
08:24 PM
Comrade_L1berty,May 26 2011
08:14 PM
I know im new to this particular game, but i would support a restart if we switch over to kristjan's mod (which is working great in the sunday game)

NO1 ASKED YOU CHILE

(teehee)

but in all seriousness krisjtans mod is very VERY stable considering we have had maybe 1 OOS per session the entire time with 11 people...including those silly aussies and that one cheeky english fellow whose computer takes 10 mins to load vic 2 cough cough LUKE cough cough

if people are seeming interested in a restart i would also support it, not for what has happened but more for the stability and mod type. plus theres a nifty feature called "conquer for another" in it which is pretty nice

Victoria OOSes to me seem more of an exersize in quantum probabalistics then actually knowing whether is something is stable one particular session.

Quote:
 

We are co-GMing. We're going to need to come to some sort of agreement here.


There's no such thing as compromise between "restart" and "no restart"; there's no middle ground so whats to agree on!?

I think giving back UK some craftsmen is fair, but we can't go crazy with the edits and we can't tell for sure how much of it is user error vs bug vs WAD.
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
The Professor,May 27 2011
10:05 AM
There's no such thing as compromise between "restart" and "no restart"; there's no middle ground so whats to agree on!?

I think giving back UK some craftsmen is fair, but we can't go crazy with the edits and we can't tell for sure how much of it is user error vs bug vs WAD.

I believe a vote by the players on the matter is a good compromise.
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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
well either way make up your mind you two cause the game is tomorro!
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The Professor

House of Lords
GrenadierSchube,May 27 2011
11:32 AM
well either way make up your mind you two cause the game is tomorro!

Exactly game is tomorrow, restarting now is no different then when we restarted last time and only a "hairs breath prior notice" if people want to play with GMs mod they have a) singleplayer B) wait for this campaign to end and by which time a better patch might be out or GMs mod is compatible with it or c) start a new game on a different timeslot.

We need to play with 1.4 vanilla at least once before checking other stuff.
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
WEll at this point it is kinda late to do a reboot.

I also think that we either need to pick another co-gm or one of us needs to give up the post because a 2 person GM is just going to end up with deadlocks.
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Dragonknight2

Viceroys
It would be a bit different restarting now than back then (We've talked about it a lot more, its only one session in), and we have experience running the mod (2 running MP games), which seem to have a lot better game balance than our vanilla has had (both 1.3, and 1.4beta), but eh.

But anyway, I do think this Co-GM thing isn't really working, tbh I think Nitrous should get it, nothing personal, but the way Blayne has been treating the position (arbitrarily adding rules {like +5 prestige for on time, what?}, dictating ooc stuff, like whether we restart, use mods and what not) is not what I think a GM should be doing, or dictating to everyone.



Am I going to get my craftsmen back?
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The Professor

House of Lords
Dragonknight2,May 27 2011
10:13 PM
It would be a bit different restarting now than back then (We've talked about it a lot more, its only one session in), and we have experience running the mod (2 running MP games), which seem to have a lot better game balance than our vanilla has had (both 1.3, and 1.4beta), but eh.

But anyway, I do think this Co-GM thing isn't really working, tbh I think Nitrous should get it, nothing personal, but the way Blayne has been treating the position (arbitrarily adding rules {like +5 prestige for on time, what?}, dictating ooc stuff, like whether we restart, use mods and what not) is not what I think a GM should be doing, or dictating to everyone.



Am I going to get my craftsmen back?

It is a style of GM'ing you may not be accustomed to but not everything is a democracy, and frankly the first duty of a GM is to manage a campaign not 'vote' on whether or not to end it and start again.

The talk of restarting again is frankly ridiculous.

Some GMs like to have votes all the time, others are a little more stern, I'm the latter.

5 prestige is trivial amount, if it gets people to arrive ontime then why the hell not?

And yeah, of course I'm going to dictate OOC stuff; its the fucking job of being the GM to get things done.

This is a no mods campaign, I have nothing against GMs mod, but 1.4 just came out last week and it should be played with first.

And yes you'll get your craftsmen, though spread out a little, not all in one state obviously.
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
The Professor,May 28 2011
02:03 AM
Dragonknight2,May 27 2011
10:13 PM
It would be a bit different restarting now than back then (We've talked about it a lot more, its only one session in), and we have experience running the mod (2 running MP games), which seem to have a lot better game balance than our vanilla has had (both 1.3, and 1.4beta), but eh.

But anyway, I do think this Co-GM thing isn't really working, tbh I think Nitrous should get it, nothing personal, but the way Blayne has been treating the position (arbitrarily adding rules {like +5 prestige for on time, what?}, dictating ooc stuff, like whether we restart, use mods and what not) is not what I think a GM should be doing, or dictating to everyone.



Am I going to get my craftsmen back?

It is a style of GM'ing you may not be accustomed to but not everything is a democracy, and frankly the first duty of a GM is to manage a campaign not 'vote' on whether or not to end it and start again.

The talk of restarting again is frankly ridiculous.

Some GMs like to have votes all the time, others are a little more stern, I'm the latter.

5 prestige is trivial amount, if it gets people to arrive ontime then why the hell not?

And yeah, of course I'm going to dictate OOC stuff; its the fucking job of being the GM to get things done.

This is a no mods campaign, I have nothing against GMs mod, but 1.4 just came out last week and it should be played with first.

And yes you'll get your craftsmen, though spread out a little, not all in one state obviously.

You didn't consult me AT ALL when you went and added new rules. If you're supporting the status quo you can win by default by just sticking to your guns, but you CAN'T just up and change the rules (or make any change to the status quo) of the game without an agreement from the co-GM bub.

Change them back.
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The Professor

House of Lords
I changed the rules to be more enforcible and to better reflect common sense, there's no need to change the rules back because there's nothing objectionable in them. Putting aside whether or not you like them being changed or not are they actually objectionable? Nows the time to discuss them.
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
The Professor,May 28 2011
08:23 AM
I changed the rules to be more enforcible and to better reflect common sense, there's no need to change the rules back because there's nothing objectionable in them. Putting aside whether or not you like them being changed or not are they actually objectionable? Nows the time to discuss them.

Honestly, I really don't care if the rules are good or not. You cannot change them unilaterally. You're showing a great deal of disdain for the co-gm relationship here.

Revert those rule changes, then we can talk about whether it's a good idea. You don't rationalize rule changes post-hoc with me.


Edit: I have to go for a while. I'm gonna revert the rules back to the way they were and retain a copy of your suggested changes so we can discuss when we are both around.

Edit 2: Here's a copy of your suggested rule change.

Quote:
 
14) Ontime rewards: If you are ontime and on teamspeak or in the lobby of the host by the start time (8pm

EST) you shall recieve one of the following rewards:

-50 units of any resource added to your stockpile.
-2000 POPs of your choice added to a province of your choice so long as it is a core.
-5 Prestige
-10,000$
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Beg_Birdal
Member Avatar

House of Lords
Nitrousoxide,May 26 2011
07:44 PM
The Professor,May 26 2011
06:10 PM
Nitrousoxide,May 26 2011
08:52 AM
The Professor,May 26 2011
09:25 AM
This is vanilla so its not particularly unbalanced, you had 1 bug that affected everyone equally (since the total world supply of machine parts was minimal).

No, it affected everyone below Russia's prestige equally (in that there were 0 machine parts available thanks to the massive building campaign a Russian player always engages in) Anyone Russia and above in prestige (UK, France, Russia) was largely unaffected by the disappearance of 90% of the world's supply of machine parts.

You forget that as Russia you create a demand of THOUSANDS of machine parts when you're engaging in your building spree. With less than ONE available every day you completely lock down the world supply.

It's like as if the UK player set their stockpile to max for machine parts on day one to prevent the rest of the world from industrializing for 10-15 years. I'm sure you didn't intend it, but because of the unique bug we got, Russia COMPLETELY shut down the world's industrialization for more than a decade.

Also, wasn't it decided that you and me would co-GM because I am the host and you had seniority?

To a degree maybe but it also certainly affected me due to UK's, France's prestige and machine parts demand would've slowed down my own industrialization as well. A question of degree not of kind, I may have been affected less, but I was certainly affected, a resources shortage that I would still be there certainly in a normal game. The problem here is that its fairly difficult to test to see WHEN *most* of the world can finally industrialize in a prebug world vs our current world.

Regardless most of us *are* industrializing just fine; this is partly hidden because of how Paradox rebalanced how the Industrial score is calculated but people are for sure managing to finally industrialize even if there was a delay.

I don't mind editing a portion of pops to be craftsmen (in a way that doesnt give free extra people of course) but England falling slightly behind relative to others isn't a situation worth restarting over.

People were not industrializing just fine. If anyone was below Russia in prestige they were completely unable to get any factories to build until you were done with your 100 factory build fest at the start of the game.

France and GB would certainly have affected your ability to get machine parts, but you were the absolute bottom. No one who was below you in prestige could get a single machine part until near the end of the session.


That's why Russia is number one in industry. Germany, and Austria were completely unable to do anything to modernize. It's part of the reason why Beg dropped to secondary power for a while too as Prussia (although most of that was due to Beg bungling the country).


I'm not suggesting we restart for my sake. I've got about the best possible game going as you can have as Greece and the stunted industry growth has allowed me to nearly get great power status with prestige. However that was a very significant bug early on and not everyone was happy given the short notice that the game was restarted on. I would say we put up a vote for restarting this one, and if we vote to restart we should also find out whether people want to play with Kristjan's mod (over the 1.4 patch since you really can't switch midgame from 1.3 to 1.4 given the huge difference it makes in country score).

I totally agree. Thus, I support a restart.
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Beg_Birdal
Member Avatar

House of Lords
I just read through all the posts (got back from vacation from St. Augustine - beautiful place).

First, the GM's job is not to exercise some hidden powers here!!!!!!!!!! No rules should be added, just because one person (GM) thinks it should be added - in middle of the game especially, since GM is actively involved in the game. Democracy or not, I certainly will not play along a one-handed BS.

Second. We need one GM! Two GM's is a little too much, thus, I frankly don't care who is the GM; as long as he is good natured and has common and unbiased sense - this is very important.

The new "prestige rule" is ok with me.

Are we re-hosting or not?
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The Professor

House of Lords
Beg_Birdal,May 28 2011
09:22 AM
I just read through all the posts (got back from vacation from St. Augustine - beautiful place).

First, the GM's job is not to exercise some hidden powers here!!!!!!!!!! No rules should be added, just because one person (GM) thinks it should be added - in middle of the game especially, since GM is actively involved in the game. Democracy or not, I certainly will not play along a one-handed BS.

Second. We need one GM! Two GM's is a little too much, thus, I frankly don't care who is the GM; as long as he is good natured and has common and unbiased sense - this is very important.

The new "prestige rule" is ok with me.

Are we re-hosting or not?

No restarts, my time is valuable and time in which I could been working or studying, same with GM who could work overtime, a restart is a blatant slap to the face; some nations did well, some did poorly it happens.

If you want a new game then start a new thread somewhere else, just have the consideration not to use this time slot.
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Beg_Birdal
Member Avatar

House of Lords
The Professor,May 28 2011
10:03 AM
Beg_Birdal,May 28 2011
09:22 AM
I just read through all the posts (got back from vacation from St. Augustine - beautiful place).

First, the GM's job is not to exercise some hidden powers here!!!!!!!!!! No rules should be added, just because one person (GM) thinks it should be added - in middle of the game especially, since GM is actively involved in the game. Democracy or not, I certainly will not play along a one-handed BS.

Second. We need one GM! Two GM's is a little too much, thus, I frankly don't care who is the GM; as long as he is good natured and has common and unbiased sense - this is very important.

The new "prestige rule" is ok with me.

Are we re-hosting or not?

No restarts, my time is valuable and time in which I could been working or studying, same with GM who could work overtime, a restart is a blatant slap to the face; some nations did well, some did poorly it happens.

If you want a new game then start a new thread somewhere else, just have the consideration not to use this time slot.

I just want to make sure that this next point is very clear, as I am not prepared to waste any time. GM should stop this buddy/buddy thing going on in the game, as it will definitely ruin the game. For example, UK and France allaying to keep the whole world at bay, has no other motivation, than the "buddy/buddy effect". UK having some totally BULL SHITT POLICIES, where he attack Prussia and Persia for no fucking reason, but than doesn't attack Spain and Greece, another "buddy/buddy effect" I really dislike this, and I don't want to waste time. Thus, we should have rules that manage this, not rules that only help 1 or 2 countries. We are 12-14 people in the game, right??
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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
um beg i got contained by France =/ so dont drag me into this

and he did have reason he did apparently warn us of crossing the Bad boy limit, both he and France did. and he did warn u of attacking Belgium did he not?
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Beg_Birdal
Member Avatar

House of Lords
GrenadierSchube,May 28 2011
10:48 AM
um beg i got contained by France =/ so dont drag me into this

and he did have reason he did apparently warn us of crossing the Bad boy limit, both he and France did.  and he did warn u of attacking Belgium did he not?

Yeah u r right. But, i didnt attack Belgium, I was attacked by Belgium. Which, I have to say, was a tottaly BS what UK did. He blocked Prussia for defending its self from Belgium WTF! :unsure: But still, the buddy/buddy thing is BS in my opp. That belgium thing was another buddy/buddy thing, that didnt make any diplomatic sence. You see, this kind of things make the game unpredictable, out of balance, stressful and totally unplayable.

To me is seams that some people play this game as they would Total War or Heart of Iron, if that is the case, than the whole concept of the Victorian Era is lost, and it will ruin the game for the rest of us, or at the least make this game very stressful.
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The Professor

House of Lords
I disagree, France and UK are playing according to fairly understandable roleplaying principles and France DID dow Greece but well be having the BB moved to me (im under the limit) thus Greece will be wp'ed.

Its not buddy buddy, its roleplaying.
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wazzul

House of Commons
As I see it England and France are allied and France will support England in attacking Persia so how is the 2 most powerful nations in the world taking on an uncivilized country not what he just explained?
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Beg_Birdal
Member Avatar

House of Lords
The Professor,May 28 2011
11:02 AM
I disagree, France and UK are playing according to fairly understandable roleplaying principles and France DID dow Greece but well be having the BB moved to me (im under the limit) thus Greece will be wp'ed.

Its not buddy buddy, its roleplaying.


Well, it certainly is roll playing, but with a "huge" buddy/buddy thing. I can see UK and France being best buddies in 1941, but not in 1841. Also, buy giving Greek BB to Russia, Greece is free to continue the conquest of the Ottoman Empire, while at the same time, Russia who is not interested in going to war, is able to lower the BB much faster than Greece (because of the GP) statues.. you are saying, this is not buddy buddy.. this kind a role playing, I am not interested in.

ps. If Greece is getting to give all of its bb to Russia, than I as Prussia under the same reasoning want to get edited back all of my former satellites back under Prussia.
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
The Professor,May 28 2011
12:03 PM
Beg_Birdal,May 28 2011
09:22 AM
I just read through all the posts (got back from vacation from St. Augustine - beautiful place).

First, the GM's job is not to exercise some hidden powers here!!!!!!!!!! No rules should be added, just because one person (GM) thinks it should be added - in middle of the game especially, since GM is actively involved in the game. Democracy or not, I certainly will not play along a one-handed BS.

Second. We need one GM! Two GM's is a little too much, thus, I frankly don't care who is the GM; as long as he is good natured and has common and unbiased sense - this is very important.

The new "prestige rule" is ok with me.

Are we re-hosting or not?

No restarts, my time is valuable and time in which I could been working or studying, same with GM who could work overtime, a restart is a blatant slap to the face; some nations did well, some did poorly it happens.

If you want a new game then start a new thread somewhere else, just have the consideration not to use this time slot.

I really do disagree. There was a gamebreaking bug at the start of the game that ruined industrialization for everyone BUT Russia, the UK, and France.

As far as I can tell, everyone below you wants a restart, and I believe at least someone above you wants a restart as well.

You are the ONLY one actively campaigning against a restart to the game.

I would suggest that we reduce the number of GMs to one here, one of us needs to be demoted, you or me.
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Marauder709

House of Commons
There seems to be some need for clarification so here it goes:
1. The UK and France's alliance is a containment alliance, we are NOT buddy buddy. If you go over the BB limit (which is 25 btw) the UK and I will contain you PERIOD. The reasons behind this are as follows:
- To prevent the over expansion of nations like the USCA or OE in the last game.
- To maintain the balance of power in the world.
- Because we can.

2. The UK and France's alliance is PURELY for containment. If say, Austria were to attack France, the UK would NOT interfere unless Austria demanded half my country as a war goal

3. The formation of Germany is NOT a forgone conclusion (as beg would like to believe). Beg, you basically wound up with the short end of the stick. However, that's life. I agree that Belgium attacked you and that you were put in an shitty situation by them retreating into Belgium. However, (regardless of if it is right or wrong) Britain warned you not to cross Belgium's boarder. You did, and the UK attacked you.

As to a restart, I don't know about the gamebreaking bug that Nitrus is talking about. I know there was a HUGE machine parts shortage at the beginning but I had it just the same as everyone else (I didnt build one factory until 1842). I really don't see a problem with soldiering on. I also put in a lot of work editing the savegame

However, I'm biased so...
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Beg_Birdal
Member Avatar

House of Lords
Nitrousoxide,May 28 2011
12:12 PM
The Professor,May 28 2011
12:03 PM
Beg_Birdal,May 28 2011
09:22 AM
I just read through all the posts (got back from vacation from St. Augustine - beautiful place).

First, the GM's job is not to exercise some hidden powers here!!!!!!!!!! No rules should be added, just because one person (GM) thinks it should be added - in middle of the game especially, since GM is actively involved in the game. Democracy or not, I certainly will not play along a one-handed BS.

Second. We need one GM! Two GM's is a little too much, thus, I frankly don't care who is the GM; as long as he is good natured and has common and unbiased sense - this is very important.

The new "prestige rule" is ok with me.

Are we re-hosting or not?

No restarts, my time is valuable and time in which I could been working or studying, same with GM who could work overtime, a restart is a blatant slap to the face; some nations did well, some did poorly it happens.

If you want a new game then start a new thread somewhere else, just have the consideration not to use this time slot.

I really do disagree. There was a gamebreaking bug at the start of the game that ruined industrialization for everyone BUT Russia, the UK, and France.

As far as I can tell, everyone below you wants a restart, and I believe at least someone above you wants a restart as well.

You are the ONLY one actively campaigning against a restart to the game.

I would suggest that we reduce the number of GMs to one here, one of us needs to be demoted, you or me.

Why dont we put it to vote. Both the GM and restart. In my opp. this should be the only fair thing to all.
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
I don't have the authority to make those decisions since as co-GM's we need unanimity to make any changes from the status quo.

You guys as regular players are free to do whatever you choose when it comes to votes.
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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
Marauder709,May 28 2011
12:21 PM
The formation of Germany is NOT a forgone conclusion (as beg would like to believe). Beg, you basically wound up with the short end of the stick. However, that's life. I agree that Belgium attacked you and that you were put in an shitty situation by them retreating into Belgium. However, (regardless of if it is right or wrong) Britain warned you not to cross Belgium's boarder. You did, and the UK attacked you.

lol this is how the UK got involved with WW1 am i right? Belgium's borders were violated, lol history >.>
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wazzul

House of Commons
deleted
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The Professor

House of Lords
I consider a restart because a couple of nations "may" have been disadvantaged insufficient reason for a restart, otherwise we'ld need to restart *every* time there may be a restart irregardless of the reasons. We gave back the UKs craftsmen and that is sufficient.

Games are about commitment, not restarting willy nilly whenever it strikes our fancy, if there would be a restart then it would have to be done without me (possibly for good) as I would be entirely disgusted with the community and its utter disrespect for an individuals time and reliability to make commitments. I plan my day around playing at that time; the time to "restart" was last week before we loaded the game.

I feel that whether or not to go back to 1 GM and who it is is Kristjans call.

No restarts.
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ssj18vegeta
Member Avatar

House of Commons
Anyone care to explain why Greece gets free byzantine empire without even occupying it's 'real' capital, Constantinople?
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
ssj18vegeta,May 28 2011
05:18 PM
Anyone care to explain why Greece gets free byzantine empire without even occupying it's 'real' capital, Constantinople?

Wait? I was turned into the Byzantine empire? Why? I didn't fulfill the requirements for the decision. I didn't even get Thrace yet.

The most you should do is put cores on Thrace for me (though probably not that even because there's a decision for that already in the game.) I shouldn't be able to completely bypass the whole process of becoming the Eastern Roman Empire.
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Kristjan2
Member Avatar
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
"Things will get out of control Mr. Heth, that is why we have orders"
- Gen. Robert E. Lee

We have two co-GMs because Sid volunteered, and because Nitrous is obvious for the position, given his control over the speed and course of each session as the host. Now, I think its reasonable that no GMing decisions should be made by one GM alone, if they are going to be co-GMs. I think it is also reasonable, that in the event of a deadlock in opinion, we go to the next most qualified source for a decision: the player group itself. These guys know whats what, they'll know whats best for the game if the GMs can't work it out.

So, i'm ordering Sid and Nitrous to come to an agreement over the current issues of restart, GMing, edits, etc., and to submit to the majority of the group if they cannot make the choices themselves.
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