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The Gathering Storm 2 Discussion Thread
Topic Started: May 23 2011, 06:57 PM (2,638 Views)
The Professor

House of Lords
Nitrousoxide,May 28 2011
03:20 PM
ssj18vegeta,May 28 2011
05:18 PM
Anyone care to explain why Greece gets free byzantine empire without even occupying it's 'real' capital, Constantinople?

Wait? I was turned into the Byzantine empire? Why? I didn't fulfill the requirements for the decision. I didn't even get Thrace yet.

The most you should do is put cores on Thrace for me (though probably not that even because there's a decision for that already in the game.) I shouldn't be able to completely bypass the whole process of becoming the Eastern Roman Empire.

I had just felt that the question of requiring Greece to get GP status to be egregious requirement in a game with a human greece and ai OE; and to save us a whole lot of hassle and editing simply easier to make you Byzantium now and give you the cores.

I'll concede on the question of changing the rules and consult with Nitros first if Nitros agrees to stop agitating for a restart.
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ssj18vegeta
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House of Commons
Can someone please sticky some threads on this forum to make it more readable?

Good session yesterday. Too bad "some people" keep OOS'ing ;)
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LotosSlayer

House of Lords
Off-topic, but anyone interested in being a perm player for Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain in the Age of Titans game? Would be really appreciated, and it's been a pretty good game so far. Game starts on Saturday 3 PM Eastern Canada/US time.
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Kristjan2
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Head Administrator
Head Administrator
Its almost certain that i'll be absent for the first half of the session. I will join TS when I arrive home this evening.
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Leighroy

House of Commons
So, Russia, what the hell happened with the Prussian peace at the start of the session?

I said I only wanted to give Flensburg (and only if I could just give Flensburg) and you just give him all of Schleswig because he said he 'WANTS IT NAO'? I don't give a shit if he's giving anything back, it's not his land. You could have at least consulted me BEFORE you peaced out, as I didn't have to give him shit and didn't even want to after he DOWed me but you just peace out straight away and let the province be edited back whenever?

Woo, hell of a German unification there with a province I specifically didn't want him to have. Did it ever occur to you that maybe that little province had some bargaining value for me, it's not like I'm the most powerful nation in the world and don't have great hopes for colonization and expansion but certainly wouldn't have traded Aabenraa for absolutely nothing, maybe a colony or something, but I'll never know now as anything that will happen now will just be an afterthought and pretty inconsequential to Germany as he's already Germany...

And if you think I'm being a bitch, why don't you just give me one of your cores (that just so happens to connect your territory and has potential bargaining value for a unification) so I can trade it away for a loss to you in a deal you never agreed to and give it back whenever in the next 10 years. Sound like fun?
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ssj18vegeta
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House of Commons
Leighroy,Jun 5 2011
09:45 PM
So, Russia, what the hell happened with the Prussian peace at the start of the session?

I said I only wanted to give Flensburg (and only if I could just give Flensburg) and you just give him all of Schleswig because he said he 'WANTS IT NAO'? I don't give a shit if he's giving anything back, it's not his land. You could have at least consulted me BEFORE you peaced out, as I didn't have to give him shit and didn't even want to after he DOWed me but you just peace out straight away and let the province be edited back whenever?

Woo, hell of a German unification there with a province I specifically didn't want him to have. Did it ever occur to you that maybe that little province had some bargaining value for me, it's not like I'm the most powerful nation in the world and don't have great hopes for colonization and expansion but certainly wouldn't have traded Aabenraa for absolutely nothing, maybe a colony or something, but I'll never know now as anything that will happen now will just be an afterthought and pretty inconsequential to Germany as he's already Germany...

And if you think I'm being a bitch, why don't you just give me one of your cores (that just so happens to connect your territory and has potential bargaining value for a unification) so I can trade it away for a loss to you in a deal you never agreed to and give it back whenever in the next 10 years. Sound like fun?

Hmm I was under the impression that there was some sort of deal between you and prussia in which he would get the province, form NGF and then give it back to you.

Anyway, you have no one to blame for the game continuing under the current circumstances but yourself for not complaining the instant the edited save was used.
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Beg_Birdal
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House of Lords
Sweden,
That province will be edited back to you for the next season. I wanted it to be edited at the first rehost, but apparently it took too much time for that, thus, we agreed to give it back to you at the beginning of the season. Also, Germany formed regardless of that one province.

You cannot bring your concerns up now, after the whole season went by, and a few key years of game play. As to whose provinces those really are, I need to remind you that I was at war with Denmark long before you were at war, and that only thx to Russian and British intervention you were able to acquire those states from me and form Scandinavia. If I was you, I would be much much more grateful to Russia, than you are now.

;)
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Leighroy

House of Commons
How would you have formed the German Empire without Aabenraa? It has a German Empire core, which you need to hold to form the German Empire, you can form the NGF without Aabenraa (as the NGF goes off of North German pops, not cores), which is all I ever supported.

I don't want anything done about it as that wouldn't work out well for anyone (nor was I in any state to argue yesterday, as I said I was very unwell).

It would also be fine if it was Russia forcing me to do it or something if there was some diplo, but the next thing I knew Russia had given you my core province without a flinch (which I never approved of at any point, only Flensburg) and all I could have done was bitch and whine and waste everyone's time with it if I'd brought it up in the session.

I don't know why you bother mentioning the Denmark thing at the start of the game, your complete failure at diplomacy put you in that situation and I took advantage of it by making a deal with Russia, who hasn't even confirmed my message that asked if we had a defensive alliance, so what allegiance should I hold to them? They can't even get me in their sphere!

In short, what Germany did was not part of the deal and Russia only exacerbated the problem by not giving half a shit what happened with my territory that I explicitly did not include in the deal.
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The Professor

House of Lords
Leighroy,Jun 5 2011
12:45 PM
So, Russia, what the hell happened with the Prussian peace at the start of the session?

I said I only wanted to give Flensburg (and only if I could just give Flensburg) and you just give him all of Schleswig because he said he 'WANTS IT NAO'? I don't give a shit if he's giving anything back, it's not his land. You could have at least consulted me BEFORE you peaced out, as I didn't have to give him shit and didn't even want to after he DOWed me but you just peace out straight away and let the province be edited back whenever?

Woo, hell of a German unification there with a province I specifically didn't want him to have. Did it ever occur to you that maybe that little province had some bargaining value for me, it's not like I'm the most powerful nation in the world and don't have great hopes for colonization and expansion but certainly wouldn't have traded Aabenraa for absolutely nothing, maybe a colony or something, but I'll never know now as anything that will happen now will just be an afterthought and pretty inconsequential to Germany as he's already Germany...

And if you think I'm being a bitch, why don't you just give me one of your cores (that just so happens to connect your territory and has potential bargaining value for a unification) so I can trade it away for a loss to you in a deal you never agreed to and give it back whenever in the next 10 years. Sound like fun?

Woah woah calm down. I'm a little hazy do to the massive amounts of vodka I've consumed since but I ONLY approved of giving Prussia (via edit) as you guys requested that 1 province; I think then it didn't happen and then things got a little confused on Teamspeak and then I thought it was agreed to give Prussia the state, and then give you back the provinces you wanted to keep via edit?

I thought we *did* consult, via teamspeak?

If he has provinces that are yours that Germany has, simply request they be edited back to you? A deal is a deal.

edit: In hindsight though this does ironically have overtunes of Concert of Europe diplomacy; its a little funny.

But in fairness Scandinavia was never going to really make it to "First Among Equals" status with other Great Powers; your population is too low, my Russia was a massive military-industrial giant within the first ten years (completely destroying the only potential lead Scandinavia had via high literacy) and thus had the "Russian Steamroller"TM readied much sooner than usual so Scandaninavia attacking Russia was impossibie; attacking Prussia was semi plausible but you never raised the issue after getting Denmark.

So now its up to somehow getting colonies.
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
Leighroy,Jun 5 2011
05:50 PM
How would you have formed the German Empire without Aabenraa? It has a German Empire core, which you need to hold to form the German Empire, you can form the NGF without Aabenraa (as the NGF goes off of North German pops, not cores), which is all I ever supported.

I don't want anything done about it as that wouldn't work out well for anyone (nor was I in any state to argue yesterday, as I said I was very unwell).

It would also be fine if it was Russia forcing me to do it or something if there was some diplo, but the next thing I knew Russia had given you my core province without a flinch (which I never approved of at any point, only Flensburg) and all I could have done was bitch and whine and waste everyone's time with it if I'd brought it up in the session.

I don't know why you bother mentioning the Denmark thing at the start of the game, your complete failure at diplomacy put you in that situation and I took advantage of it by making a deal with Russia, who hasn't even confirmed my message that asked if we had a defensive alliance, so what allegiance should I hold to them? They can't even get me in their sphere!

In short, what Germany did was not part of the deal and Russia only exacerbated the problem by not giving half a shit what happened with my territory that I explicitly did not include in the deal.

I've been in your shoes before, where the warleader totally screws me over with a peace deal without asking me first.

What do you think could be done to remedy the situation given the fact that it's done and over with now?
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Leighroy

House of Commons
That depends if you call consulting being asked to wait to get the province back at the end of the session because it wouldn't be happening until then anyway (and I agree that an edit there wouldn't have been appropriate, but I NEVER said to give him the province in a fake war that way and was only asked if I'd be happy with it that way AFTER you peaced, which I also didn't want, as I NEVER wanted to let go of Aabenraa, which I also said the whole time that I only wanted to give it to him if it was ONLY Flensburg). I made an edit request too, and for some reason they were all added in at the last minute except for mine, which I'd changed to a province transfer and posted at least 12 hours before the session (and looking in the request thread Nitrous had commented on my earlier request that was shot down after I posted the revised request in a new post, but nothing was said of the new one).

Before this goes any further I'd just like to say I'm not going to ragequit or anything lame like that because if there is any fault to lay it would be on me for not bringing it up at the time and it is a game after all so you don't need to worry about that as I'll be the first to admit that I shouldn't have played yesterday as I wasn't really in the condition to. I do apologize for that but it's not like it would have gone any better had I not shown up and I'd still be just as pissed at what happened (not part of the deal, Germany getting impatient and DOWing me, not Russia's land to give up, no roleplaying related to it, and directly contradicted what I'd said repeatedly about not giving up the province that wasn't Flensburg, and the province was requested to be transferred beforehand as well).

So I think in the spirit of the game I'll take this as a major diplomatic incident on behalf of Russia and Prussia and work out exactly what I'm going to do about it before the next session.
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Beg_Birdal
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House of Lords
Look,
I don't think that me getting the province of Flensburg was a big deal anyways, as you didn't loose anything by giving it to me (no factory, and the population is low). My goal and intention was to edit it back to you in the first rehost, and I asked for it, but was told that it would take too much time.

So, now that Germany is formed, you are pissed off, because you think that if i didn't had that one province i wouldn't be able to form (look, in order to form Germany you need to have all the core states, not all of the core provinces - UK is still having a German core province). Besides, let's take this as a diplomatic misunderstanding and move on. If you insist, I will transfer Flensburg back to you, with an 50% increased population.

:)
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The Professor

House of Lords
Leighroy,Jun 5 2011
06:28 PM
That depends if you call consulting being asked to wait to get the province back at the end of the session because it wouldn't be happening until then anyway (and I agree that an edit there wouldn't have been appropriate, but I NEVER said to give him the province in a fake war that way and was only asked if I'd be happy with it that way AFTER you peaced, which I also didn't want, as I NEVER wanted to let go of Aabenraa, which I also said the whole time that I only wanted to give it to him if it was ONLY Flensburg). I made an edit request too, and for some reason they were all added in at the last minute except for mine, which I'd changed to a province transfer and posted at least 12 hours before the session (and looking in the request thread Nitrous had commented on my earlier request that was shot down after I posted the revised request in a new post, but nothing was said of the new one).

Before this goes any further I'd just like to say I'm not going to ragequit or anything lame like that because if there is any fault to lay it would be on me for not bringing it up at the time and it is a game after all so you don't need to worry about that as I'll be the first to admit that I shouldn't have played yesterday as I wasn't really in the condition to. I do apologize for that but it's not like it would have gone any better had I not shown up and I'd still be just as pissed at what happened (not part of the deal, Germany getting impatient and DOWing me, not Russia's land to give up, no roleplaying related to it, and directly contradicted what I'd said repeatedly about not giving up the province that wasn't Flensburg, and the province was requested to be transferred beforehand as well).

So I think in the spirit of the game I'll take this as a major diplomatic incident on behalf of Russia and Prussia and work out exactly what I'm going to do about it before the next session.

Sounds to me it was a major misunderstanding, what would you suggest be constructive for us to do leighroy?
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Leighroy

House of Commons
The Professor,Jun 5 2011
08:42 PM
Sounds to me it was a major misunderstanding, what would you suggest be constructive for us to do leighroy?

I'll just post for an edit for Aabenraa and the prestige I lost from the fake war and get on with the game. That will do, I guess.

You can do what you like with Flensburg (I'm certainly not going to 'insist' on anything), I'm not bothered as I had intended to give it to Germany permanently as long as I could hold on to Aabenraa.
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Nitrousoxide

Viceroys
I think I'm gonna have to miss this weekend.
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Beg_Birdal
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House of Lords
no one is active in diplo?? <_<
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The Professor

House of Lords
Dunno, war is on I imagine, not much diplo to do. Also not entirely sure how much UK is playing the game he he :D I mean really, invading the US without any diplo?
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theebum
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House of Commons
I've done my "the evil UK is attacking me please help!" diplo so...I dont really have much else to say. Other than that, help! haha
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Kristjan2
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Head Administrator
Head Administrator
Beg_Birdal,Jun 9 2011
06:35 PM
no one is active in diplo?? <_<

Belgium did post to talk to its current allies about furthering our goals in Mexico, and we had some private talks with USA that so far haven't been fruitful. :P
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Dragonknight2

Viceroys
Well I've tried to do some diplo, but apparently Austria and Germany want to be your bitches in another EEA bloc :(.

Im not sure what France is thinking though.
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Ryeassassin

House of Lords
splendid Isolationism isn't really diplomacy and the fact that you control most of colonizeable land doesn't help. Also diplomacy involves giving and taking. Considering you and france threatened the rest of the world for most of the game. This may engender some anit-british/french feelings
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Beg_Birdal
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House of Lords
Ryeassassin,Jun 10 2011
07:58 AM
splendid Isolationism isn't  really diplomacy and the fact that you control most of colonizeable land doesn't help.  Also diplomacy involves giving and taking.  Considering you and france threatened the rest  of the world for most of the game may engender some anit-british/french feelings

I have to agree with Austria, and to a degree I share his sentiments. Germany in particular was extremely hurt by the stupid early attack by the Brits, and to a large degree we are still recovering from it. Thus, in my opinion the Brits made it clear that they are having an unstable government

:BIGER2:
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theebum
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House of Commons
Tell you the truth I think dragon was just seeing how far he could go before people had enough. Or maybe he just wanted to play aggressive and make the UK more fun than the micro fest it usually is.

Anyway, gotta work tomorrow so I might be half an hour late. But I imagine I'll just speed and end up being on time. Just a heads up in case I dont make it.
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Marauder709

House of Commons
Hey folks, I might be a bit late for the game tonight, I'm attending my cousin's graduation party. However, luke has agreed to sub for me until I get back so we should be ok w/o me.

Also, I will not be able to make the edits so someone else will have to do them this week.
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The Professor

House of Lords
Can anyone volunteer to do the editing? GM?
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The Professor

House of Lords
Okay guys allegedly there was two mid session rule patch updates discussed and considered.

1- Force Peace Rules.

2- Banning social reforms during war?

(2) I wasn't here for afaik, whats the justification here? Giving reforms to bribe your people has IRL historical precedent and only so many (expensive) reforms you can do.

(1) The debate I heard was this "If I occupy his whole country and he has 100% War exhaustion" then he should accept a force peace of up to 100% War score.

To my mind the "If I occupy..." was implicitly a part of this, it makes no sense, to be technically "lose" a war and then only "win" because of war exhaustion.

As such for clarification I would consider the rule in full to be this:

1) You must have at least 40% War score.
2) He has to be at 100% WE for one full consequentive year.
3) You can demand only up to the amount of war score you have assuming the minimum requirement of 40% has been met. (Thus, only 100% ws has to be accepted, if you literally have 100% war score.

Anything other than this, makes no sense, and breaks immersion and is open to abuse.

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Dragonknight2

Viceroys
The Professor,Jun 11 2011
09:16 PM
Okay guys allegedly there was two mid session rule patch updates discussed and considered.

1- Force Peace Rules.

2- Banning social reforms during war?

(2) I wasn't here for afaik, whats the justification here? Giving reforms to bribe your people has IRL historical precedent and only so many (expensive) reforms you can do.

(1) The debate I heard was this "If I occupy his whole country and he has 100% War exhaustion" then he should accept a force peace of up to 100% War score.

To my mind the "If I occupy..." was implicitly a part of this, it makes no sense, to be technically "lose" a war and then only "win" because of war exhaustion.

As such for clarification I would consider the rule in full to be this:

1) You must have at least 40% War score.
2) He has to be at 100% WE for one full consequentive year.
3) You can demand only up to the amount of war score you have assuming the minimum requirement of 40% has been met. (Thus, only 100% ws has to be accepted, if you literally have 100% war score.

Anything other than this, makes no sense, and breaks immersion and is open to abuse.

2). Is because it is incredibly gamey, and breaks the whole concept of winning a war, to get far better (healthcare) in the future.

1). It was agreed in game. The reason is to stop the crazy absolute refusal to surrender ala last game's UK, despite huge homeland occupation. This applies to the US regardless of the overall war war-score (distorted by battles in france etc), I mean, ive occupied the whole east coast, and im pushing west, the USA should be surrendering.

Your system is open to abuse because, if I fight an unrelated land war with Russia/Austria who ever in europe, whilst the USA is half occupied, w/s might still be low.
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The Professor

House of Lords
Dragonknight2,Jun 11 2011
09:48 PM
The Professor,Jun 11 2011
09:16 PM
Okay guys allegedly there was two mid session rule patch updates discussed and considered.

1- Force Peace Rules.

2- Banning social reforms during war?

(2) I wasn't here for afaik, whats the justification here? Giving reforms to bribe your people has IRL historical precedent and only so many (expensive) reforms you can do.

(1) The debate I heard was this "If I occupy his whole country and he has 100% War exhaustion" then he should accept a force peace of up to 100% War score.

To my mind the "If I occupy..." was implicitly a part of this, it makes no sense, to be technically "lose" a war and then only "win" because of war exhaustion.

As such for clarification I would consider the rule in full to be this:

1) You must have at least 40% War score.
2) He has to be at 100% WE for one full consequentive year.
3) You can demand only up to the amount of war score you have assuming the minimum requirement of 40% has been met. (Thus, only 100% ws has to be accepted, if you literally have 100% war score.

Anything other than this, makes no sense, and breaks immersion and is open to abuse.

2). Is because it is incredibly gamey, and breaks the whole concept of winning a war, to get far better (healthcare) in the future.

1). It was agreed in game. The reason is to stop the crazy absolute refusal to surrender ala last game's UK, despite huge homeland occupation. This applies to the US regardless of the overall war war-score (distorted by battles in france etc), I mean, ive occupied the whole east coast, and im pushing west, the USA should be surrendering.

Your system is open to abuse because, if I fight an unrelated land war with Russia/Austria who ever in europe, whilst the USA is half occupied, w/s might still be low.

Not correct, only if you negotiate with alliance leader, there should be a separate war score.

Otherwise your system means first one to 100 WE loses, which is crap.
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Dragonknight2

Viceroys
The US is the current war-leader, and the system needs to cover for that.

It isn't simply first to 100 we (not exactly a trivial amount, pretty much the only way its going to happen is with big losing battles and huge swathes of homeland occupied), its also the occupation of home territory, ie the US east coast.
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Ryeassassin

House of Lords
Well we will have to see what the war score is after the french leave the war, The UK was a participant in the European war and there for the European war score should have some affect on the situation in the US. Also i have to say war exhaustion shouldn't be the only factor. it has to be some how tied into war score. The situation in the US is a perfect example of that. they have 100 war exhaustion but it took a long time to get reinforcements to the US and now the UK is being pushed out of the US. I personally believe that any nation should be winning by a substantial amount before say 25-30 war score before any forced surrender is required and if the attacking nation doesn't have the war score to achieve its objectives the defending nation shouldnt have to give up the territory demanded
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