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Topic Started: Oct 12 2013, 01:55 PM (3,431 Views)
Magister Equitum

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LotosSlayer,Nov 1 2013
10:08 PM
I gotta thank ya again for signing up.

Who is "ya"?
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Lord Snoopy

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Magister Equitum,Nov 1 2013
10:18 PM
LotosSlayer,Nov 1 2013
10:08 PM
I gotta thank ya again for signing up.

Who is "ya"?

'Ya' and in 'you all' I think
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al3xytp

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Lightning cut the power down. I'm sorry, next time I'll punch the cloud who did this in the face.
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Erthel
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Brazil was doing fairly well despite AI, getting loads of immigrants.
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al3xytp

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Erthel,Nov 2 2013
03:22 AM
Brazil was doing fairly well despite AI, getting loads of immigrants.

I set two "Attract immigrants", maybe the AI didn't dared to changed that.
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Seleukos
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Sorry for missing Friday guys, some dumb bad shit happened that I needed to take care of an hour before the session started, my apologies.
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SchFerreira
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@Seleukos: hope everything ended up alright with your family. Will you be playing next session? Because Spain really stagnates under the AI. Also, so much had happened: Italy unified but not under Bourbon rule, and Spain actually got into war along with Russia and Mexico against the US.

Same with Japan, really. Will Japan be playing?
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Seleukos
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Yea, everything is ok now, I haven't been home since Friday night so I'm just now trying to sort out the mess I've created with my absence.

So, can anyone give me a vague explanation of what I missed? Would help with properly updating my embassy for next session.

Also, can someone or Lotos post a end-session save for me? Id like to see the damage the AI has done to Spain so I can make the proper adjustments.
(Tried using Magister's link, came up with an error screen.)

Thanks.
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SchFerreira
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Important things that happened (in rough chronological order):

- Mexico loses the Texan War of Independence.
- Magister played with Spain for a short time, enough to make the Carlists win.
- Spain pretty much sat there for the rest of the session.
- Austria invades The Papal States, gets into a war with France. Invasion fails, ends in white peace. Austria seems to have suffered a significant decline in military status during the session.
- NGF is formed by Prussia.
- Kingdom of Italy is unified, but not by Bourbon rule; instead, by the House of Savoy with Austrian support. (loses control of Tunis to nationalists while the country is in civil war)
- Mexico tries to annex Hawaii. USA says no, they go to war, Russia and AI Spain join Mexico, USCA joins USA. War goes good for the M-R-S side for a while, then the US makes a comeback and pretty much whipes the mexican and spanish armies from the continent. USA proceeds to occupy northern Mexico. Russia still has troops on North America, claims more are incoming. USA offers peace, Russia says no. Mexico silent. It is speculated that the american army is on its last movilized reserves.
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Seleukos
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So basically my military is trashed and AI being AI has no proper economy... so much fun.

But thank you Magister for making the Carlists win, or else I would quickly lose interest in trying to reorganize my embassy and play style I would like to use this game.

But please, anyone have a save they can upload? I would like to see what I need to do for session start so I'm not shooting in the dark and see it is worse then I can imagine.
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SchFerreira
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I'll upload the save, give me a sec. BTW you have a ton of money, and a big army in Spain. Enough if you want to get involved right away in America - and you should B)
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Seleukos
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Alright, but what you think is a ton of money probably isn't enough for me. :P

And the big army is one of many reasons I went with the Carlist faction, bigger stick to whack people with. :ph43r:
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SchFerreira
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You have ~80k pounds, but pretty much no industry I think.

http://www.2shared.com/file/wGNMKPvy/mp_No...ration1848.html
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Seleukos
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You have another site? I don't trust sites that demand emails or other info.


(Sorry, learned these things the hard way.)
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Seleukos
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Scratch that, got around the email issue.
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rorlegion
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SchFerreira,Nov 3 2013
05:26 PM
I'll upload the save, give me a sec. BTW you have a ton of money, and a big army in Spain. Enough if you want to get involved right away in America - and you should  B)

LotusSlayer has the final decision in this of course, but I believe he said player alliances must be declared on the forums. I don't believe this happened with Spain+Russia, and Russia brought the Spanish AI into the war where at the beginning of the game we were told not to bring players under AI control (Japan and Spain) into wars. That's why I didn't sphere Japan and ally with them to hinder Russia from sending troops into the war. Thus, Spain is incorrectly in the Mexican-American war right now.

I believe Lotus is of the same opinion of this, as he told me that if the Spanish have gained too much ground to make a difference in the war to let him know and he'll do something about this - not because he's taking sides in the war, but because of Russia incorrectly calling in the Spanish AI into the war.

Of course I could be wrong, but I believe that's where we left things off on Friday.

@Selekus: I posted scores and a few maps from the end of the last session: Link -- I believe after Russia called Spain into the war, Spain went bankrupt, causing a hit to your prestige. If Lotus agrees you were improperly brought into the war, you probably deserve a prestige edit.
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SchFerreira
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Yeah I was wondering about that too, but if a preexisting war exists, isn't it ok to play until the end? Because say the AI is winning a war and in a very good position vs a human player, and now another human comes and takes over the AI. Is he supposed to end the war right away, and not take it to its conclusion?

EDIT: oh but what happened is that Russia got into the war because of the mutual defense treaty with Mexico, and it was allied to Spain right? Yet Spain could still forum-declare war on the US if it so wished, as it is not a Class A power.

EDIT 2: Also rorlegion, the warmongering against you is obv nothing personal and an in-game thing ;)
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rorlegion
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SchFerreira,Nov 3 2013
06:25 PM
Yeah I was wondering about that too, but if a preexisting war exists, isn't it ok to play until the end? Because say the AI is winning a war and in a very good position vs a human player, and now another human comes and takes over the AI. Is he supposed to end the war right away, and not take it to its conclusion?

EDIT: oh but what happened is that Russia got into the war because of the mutual defense treaty with Mexico, and it was allied to Spain right? Yet Spain could still forum-declare war on the US if it so wished, as it is not a Class A power.

EDIT 2: Also rorlegion, the warmongering against you is obv nothing personal and an in-game thing  ;)

The problem with that is that I could have sphered and got AI Japan into the war, but I followed Lotus's rule not to bring AI players into war when they weren't there. I don't think the Russian-Mexican alliance should profit from breaking this rule.

Spain could declare war, but it would have to make peace in the current war and declare a different war, so as not to interfere with the Mexican-American war it was improperly brought into. Although Spain could add its own wargoals, it would interfere with the warscore of the current war. This might be a better option if Spain desires war, because the UK has expressed support of the Monroe Doctrine (and may wish to intervene if Spain wants to take former colonies), but does not want to get involved in the Mexican-American war.

And I know, it's all in good fun. But don't be surprised if there aren't consequences for your hatred of the U.S. later on ;)
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SchFerreira
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Oh man I'm definitely getting nuked.

EDIT: also, would you be forced to accept peace from Spain (as refusing to do so would prevent Spain from declaring a separate war)? If so, on what terms?
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rorlegion
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SchFerreira,Nov 3 2013
06:39 PM
Oh man I'm definitely getting nuked.

I'm starting the manhattan project as soon as session 2 starts xD

Nukes for everyone!!!

Response to your edit: Not sure how Lotus will handle it. Anything I say is mere speculation, so I'll just wait on his input.
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Seleukos
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In all honesty if I knew somehow that a protracted war between the Mexican and US player were to happen after 1840, I would have joined the Mexican side against the US.

If it is deemed that I cannot, due to AI having control of Spain continue the role I have in this situation, then I will leave the war if forced to by GM.

BUT if I can continue, well.... :ph43r: here comes the cavalry to the rescue!
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Otto of England
The Free State of Kiev
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Did AI Japan do anything? Or am I effectivly starting the game in 1846? I just need to know so I can plan accordingly. Also I need a save game.
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Erthel
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Just a few things:

It was russian army that got wiped in Mexico, not the spanish army - spanish army has so far not intervened much, except for dropping a lone brigade in Oregon.

It was my mistake to call Spain into war - I shouldn't have done it, and I'm ready to endure any penalties from this decision. I did it unconsciously.

Would have been interesting if Spain was ruled by a player, as legally Spain is not a GP and could have joined the war on Mexico sidee.

Japan was left untouched. It raised a large army, and that's all.

On the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, I'm trying to contact Mexico first for discussion :P. The war looks bad for Russia, specially due to naval dificulties (had a transport fleet sitting on a naval base at 5% for 3-4 years without repairs, that made the last Russian garrison arrive into Mexico too late :().
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SchFerreira
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So what will be the new time? Because I have class until 18.30 my time on fridays, which would be fine since last week we started at 20.00 but I don't know what the time change will do (since DLS changes soon where I live).
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Seleukos
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I would like to get a ruling from Lotos on this American-Mexican War debate. If not then this is a rule exploit... And needs to be addressed immediately.

Also to answer SchFerreira, the time change has put the US back an hour, I don't know if you live in the US or elsewhere, but Lotos should also clear this up by putting proper time starts until we can resume normally on the information thread.
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rorlegion
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Seleukos,Nov 4 2013
07:50 PM
I would like to get a ruling from Lotos on this American-Mexican War debate. If not then this is a rule exploit... And needs to be addressed immediately.


I saw Lotus on the forums, but he might have missed this thread, so I sent him the following PM:

Quote:
 
A conflict has arisen over the Spanish involvement of the Mexican-American war - the topic has been debated in the General Discussion area of the forum. I'll give you the facts, followed by my interpretation of the rules, followed by my opinion on the matter.

Facts:
Prior to our session last Friday, Russia and Mexico formed a defense pact. During our session, Russia allied with Spain, a player nation who was controlled by the AI.

During the session, Mexico attacked Hawaii, who was warned that the US would declare war on Mexico if they attacked. The US Declared war. Mexico called in Russia as part of the defense pact.

Russia then called in Spain to the war against the US, a player nation who was controlled by the AI. During the war, Spain went bankrupt, causing a hit to its prestige.

Spain entered the forum after the session and expressed his desire to keep fighting the US in the Mexican-American war.

Rules:
1. Player alliances must be declared on the forums.
2. Players can ally with player nations controlled by the AI for observation purposes only. This means they cannot pull player-AI nations into wars.

My Opinion:
1. Spain should be forced to white peace with the United States.
--Seeing as Russia broke the rule, Spain should not have entered the war under any circumstances. Spain expressed in the forum that "in all honesty, he would have gotten involved in the Mex-American war had he been playing" (I'm paraphrasing). However, this would have been impossible due to the aforementioned Rule#1 - Spain did not enter into an alliance with either Russia or Mexico in the forums, making this impossible.

Further, if Russia and Mexico wish to truce with the US and Spain does not, this causes further problems due to the US needing to keep the war at least 1% in its favor to add wargoals -- but a truce is only a possibility here, not certain.

2. Russia should not be penalized for breaking the aforementioned Rule#2.
--It was an honest mistake, and no harm came from it except for Spain's in-game bankruptcy.

3. Spain deserves a prestige edit.
--Spain's in-game bankruptcy was directly caused by Russia calling in the Spanish player-AI into the Mexican-American war, which should have never happened in the first place. The player Spain should not be penalized for this.



We all have agreed to abide by your ruling in this matter. Thanks, and have a great day/night!


I have no idea about the time for the game. All I know is that it starts at 7PM EST, but I don't know how that figures for other time zones, especially after EST had daylight savings.
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Seleukos
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I would expect that I should be asked to make white peace, which I can accept since it was under the AI's decision to honor the Russian call to the war.

The main reason I say this is due to the "alliance only by forums" rule, which I personally do not like since it kills immersion in-game when unknown factors may rise (like this situation, and I can bet at least 2 more times before game end where a bad war will happen and someone fumes at that rule.)
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Erthel
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:BIRUS2:

As peace negotiations are already ongoing, a white peace for Spain sounds reasonable, along with prestige reparation.

about the 1% problem, just keep conquering Mexico until you can add the wargoals, and peace through ingame mechanics (when we get to an agreement, still waiting for Mexico player).

I understand alliances can change ingame between players, but I think it was unfair on my part to call an AI player claimed country (It was unconsciously :P).

EDIT: I'm not sure if USA would have started the war if he knew a player Spain could get involved.
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LotosSlayer

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Since Spain didn't do much damage in the war, as long as Spain forms an alliance with Russia/Mexico on the forums now, I don't see why they should have to leave the war. Russia made a mistake, but it was a pretty innocent one, as Spain didn't do any damage(unless the US would like to argue otherwise).

Seems a peace has been agreed on anyway, so it doesn't matter.

As for Spain getting prestige for getting bankrupt(I didn't see it anyway, so I'd need some proof), I can't reward people for missing sessions, no prestige edit.

As for the time, for people in the Americas, it's gunna be 1 hour earlier, at 6 PM EST instead of 7 PM EST. So show up an hour earlier.
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Erthel
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So legally Spain can be into the war if it declares official alliance with either Russia or Mexico.

Interesting. Should we rethink peace treaty? :D
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