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Off topic discussion; All talk here
Topic Started: Feb 25 2014, 01:46 PM (3,606 Views)
Lukesea

Viceroys
I could get on board with that....


No homo
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TornadoWatch
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House of Commons
Will not engage in any group hug involving Comrade.

Prussians smell.
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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
The thought of hugging sweden disgusts the British King, but he would be more than willing to hug those muslims
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ileonu
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Im in for a group hug...

The knife in my hand?

I just ate an apple... that's why i have a knife in my hand... how do you eat apples without a knife?
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eric292

House of Commons
Uhh with teeth?

And wait a second. See now THIS IS WHY SHAMPOO LEFT US

This is the off topic discussion (ugh i did roleplay as portugal once....so here goes my hypocrite) and we're not supposed to be holding the game against anyone!!!

I'll start by throwing myself at ileonu, with that knife in hand...Will he move it? Who knows, but Im getting my group hug damnit!!!

No homo

~~~~

PUMPED FOR TOMORROW!!!!
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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
shampoo had other reasons for leaving…not for joking around about group hugs -.-.


ALSO

may 11th is mothers day, we should consider moving the play date/time becuase i guarentee you most of us will not be there, including myself.
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eric292

House of Commons
GrenadierSchube,May 2 2014
09:20 AM
shampoo had other reasons for leaving…not for joking around about group hugs -.-.

Uhh...I'm talking about the fact that a lot of us can't set aside their differences in game for an out of game group hug.....................................

~~~~~

NO!!! May 10th is the actual Saturday I can play in Mexico! Damnit!

Errr wait. No I fly into Mexico on the 10th. Which could be dangerous.

But since I have no idea when I'll be landing in Puerto Vallerta...

~~~~~

Send mom a $65 flower bouquet to be delivered on Sunday. That's what I did...... Ugh......

~~~~~

In seriousness, I am okay with whatever everyone else wants to do, but I vote to play whenever we can :)
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eric292

House of Commons
nvm, lol
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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
lol nvm i will be there the 10th I thought the 11th was a sunday!
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goro

House of Commons
I'd like to ask for a resolve in the prussian vassalage matter.I stated like 3-4 times it's an exploit in the chat.It's a rule in 99% of mp games out there.And there are many reasons for that.As others stated it can be counted as nation destroying.
Most main problem with it is that austria could gain a shit ton of land for free which it doesn't deserve.If he manages to PU prussia through game means (claim war,heir dies by chance) im fine with it.But this is gamey.
Also if comrade quits he actually has a very powerful ai with probably better generals helping him in every war of his.Not to mention preventing other players from attacking prussia without having to confront austria as well

Nothing of these happened in our session although austria almost annexed prussia and i'm glad someone found out because i'm pretty sure it would end up in save editing or people leaving.
What did happen in our session was that Austria was taking an extra 23 income from prussia with prussia losing 20 of its income making about 10 every month(again nation destroying).Now all you rich people will say who cares about 23 gold per month?Well i do.I make about 45 per month.If it's that trivial i suppose people should be handing me money every month.I heard some people complain that they cant build stuff anymore.Well i guess i could relieve you of your burden since there are so much money lying around.
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TornadoWatch
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http://z7.invisionfree.com/Blut_und_Eisen/...?showtopic=2583

You guys remember when Portugal felt threatened by Castille and wanted to quit the game?

The idea that Castille could just peacefully vassalize Portugal to guarantee a "permanent alliance" was brought up. It was then rejected by Marquis, and everyone seemed to agree, because a player annexing another for FREE LAND was not cool.

Now, when Austria and Prussia do the same, it's absolutely fine? This should really count as nation destruction - I don't think Comrade should be punished for it, but it's still nation destruction to attempt to allow yourself to be forcefully annexed completely.

This is completely aside from the fact that gaining free money (Literally free money) monthly is a bit obnoxious, even if you apparently have an overabundance of it...

Not going to get too deep into whether the war was fair or not, but here's what I have to say: Sweden felt threatened by Prussia/Austria together, France felt threatened by Sweden/Austria together (Mostly because Prussia said he wanted to go kill France, according to Luke...), Dutch felt the same way, and the Spanish volunteered to join - Morocco, if we're being honest, was hardly a tipping point.

Prussia is hardly even dead, though. Subsidies of half of Austria's income would boost him to being a world power and with his NI's probably still at least equal with me. Ottomans have guaranteed his independence, and will not be helping me any more...

I've got a feeling that I won't be agreed with, but I think a big problem is the permanent austrian-prussian hugbox that has existed. The fact that Austria defends Prussia 100% of the time means I have to seek more allies to even it out. Me and Brandenburg cannot beat those two, or were not able to before - now, I'm unsure.

If not for that, I probably would've kept ottomans as my only ally and kept attacking Brandenburg, and maybe would've even gotten into conflicts with France...

Anyway, I've gotten off topic: The key thing I want to say here is player vassalization is absolute nonsense unless it's done via PU or something.

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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
You two can stop this, we already agreed it was against the rules to allow it to happen, and was ruled he would have to cancel the vassalization, which he will do next session.

and tornado you missed the point, comrade is tired of getting 6 or more people attacking him over land that isn't even valuable, just because he was Prussia.

you took half his country in one war, of course he is going to quit. Luke hasn't held one of his agreements outside of protecting you, why should he trust the ottomans now? other people have quit for far less, I almost did as well.

if he wants to quit he can, you all wanted to beat down the Aussies so congrads you did. Now they both decided to quit while you 3 get to continue your co-op game. Its funny because last game a great deal of people were annoyed that Russia and ottomans, who were dragon and comrade, did not fight one another being next door to each other. But this game Mughals and ottomans, two of the largest nations in the game, haven't fought one war against each other either. Its funny to watch people be hypocritical.

I am not trying to stir up trouble or accuse of anything, just pointing out the facts and how both of them probably feel. Please feel free and rebuttal.

we can try to find people to replace them, as we already need someone to replace France as well.

Found a France replacement so we are set for next week. Unless you really think we need a qing/Prussia who are effectively screwed because of the alliances lol...
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goro

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Qing and Prussia are screwed forever because of uncontested cores which there are tons.Their prestige will always be minus.So they are doomed to lose every war
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TornadoWatch
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I didn't know that you ruled that Austria had to break the vassalization, merely that he needed to stop annexing Prussia.

I apologize for my misunderstanding.

I cannot speak for the Ottomans and Mughals, and sometimes it makes me quirk an eyebrow as well - But the fact that Austria allied Prussia makes me do the same thing. When one weird alliance bloc forms, there is always another that forms.

I guess you may have a point regarding the constant attacks on Prussia - but I am not responsible for what others do. The players in that coalition all had their own reasons, and one way or another they felt threatened.

The numbers do not necessarily matter; what matters is relative alliance strength. For example, ten HRE states ganging up against Austria or France can be perfectly justified. In a similar way, a coalition joining up against Austria-Prussia (Who, respectively, had one of the largest and highest quality armies in the world), can be justified. Everyone had a reason for participating, and sometimes it's not always fair.

Sweden - Prussia held a lot of cores, and is the only country who bordered me at the time who had not been friendly to me in the past.

Kingdom of France - According to Luke, Prussia wanted to attack France with Austria, thusly leading to his participation to defend himself and his interests.

Ottoman Empire - Traditionally allied with Sweden, and also threatened by the size of the Prussian state.

Netherlands - Felt threatened by Prussia, and was obligated to help because of his strong French ties.

Spain - I have no idea why he offered his assistance, just gonna be honest.

If we look here, there's a consistent theme - Being threatened... In my opinion (And Comrade is welcome to say something to the contrary), Comrade wanted him and Austria to be dominant on the map, and was planning to knock out those who would compete. If this was not what he planned, he would've remained as Poland - It wasn't like he was in a desperately losing situation as Poland. In fact, the wars between me and Poland were hardly one-sided. The last three wars before this one, I lost - France even fought against me to stop what he saw as a rampage of Swedish conquest. The war against Prussia was because people saw Comrade forming Prussia as a very aggressive move designed to make him more powerful than everyone else.

I guess, at the end of the day, it's a competition. I welcome Comrade and Dragon to stay because I like them both.

I am for finding replacements for the both of them... I think it will cause a radical rethinking of diplomacy across the map and will be more interesting than allowing them to just be gobbled.
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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
as goro said, there really isn't a point, both countries will forever be losing prestige because of uncontested cores, never gaining the morale bonus from positive prestige. And as pointed out due to the massive mughal/ottoman alliance its very doubtful that qing could ever regain their land.

plus Prussia is effectively screwed since every time he did gain a small victory or some sort of land, the alliance of 6 to 7 nations comes in to beat him down and takes 1/3 to 1/2 his land lol.

long as we got a France that is what matters I suppose as he is not a gimped power and the other two are.
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Naveed

House of Lords
"and tornado you missed the point, comrade is tired of getting 6 or more people attacking him over land that isn't even valuable, just because he was Prussia."

"6 or more people attacking him"

Rhetoric bs. Maybe. MAYBE, he shouldn't be so incompetent in diplomatic pursuits. Just don't say you're going to conquer the entire f'ing world for starters! Maybe work to help your allies every now and then instead of being completely consumed and unforgiving in your pursuit to be #1.

How is someone so incompetent diplomatically that they have 6 people against them?

"land that isn't even valuable"

butthurt much? Herp derp guess it's not valuable, so why does Prussia care if he loses it?
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Lukesea

Viceroys
To be perfetly honest gren, this game you have turned out to be a sorer loser than the aussies.. youve lost 2 wars in 4 sessions or so now and the tirade of abuse and blame i and others have had is rediculous.. your GMing has also become erratic and its a bit stupid when its gotten to a point that its automatically assumed that you will pick your own side whenever a GMing decision needs to be made (thank god for co-gms) I seriously have no idea what has changed this game with you as youve been great for the past year and a half. Everyone is talking about everyone starting to get nasty but actually i think thats completely wrong.. People like marquis shampoo goro marauder naveed mark auxilior etc. have all been completely calm almost the entire game as well as polite.. Tornado has been "mean" but only ever in an in-game context and hes always made that perfectly clear and been nice out of the game. The only time ive ever lost my cool is when i recieve all the blame and insults because i was luckily enough to manage to win.. so from what ive seen its just been gren and the two aussies.. comrades gotten angry about dying which is understandable however the constant threatening to quit everytime he loses any war is well old now (same goes for dragon) and then theres gren whos generally been a douche to everyone who hasnt helped him out and not just in-game but massively out of game too, its unprofessional, poor sportmanship and at times just nasty. last week i was desperate for this group to stick together.. but this week.....i cant wait for us to finish and have a break.
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GrenadierSchube

Viceroys
ok then break time it is. I hereby resign as GM and as host. As the majority have stated, I am shitty at GM and with everything else that happened this game so I will remove myself from the situation and anything in the future entirely. Best of luck and so long all, was a pleasure knowing and playing with you.
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goro

House of Commons
It's at the same time annoying frustrating and hilarious to see that this group can't manage to finish a goddamn game for once.Well i myself,even though i'm no pro in this game, have managed to finish two games all the way to 1821 and i have to say i enjoyed the hell out of them because people there realised this is just a game.
The people that ruined this game are the ones who play only to win.I can name them but they already know who they are.

Tornado even though my ally and a good guy irl at least from his chats with him,is too greedy and even worse than comrade.The past few sessions some of you spammed us with cries of desperation.Prussia is so strong prussia will kill us all.Well from what i saw prussia only wanted to kill sweden.And sweden wanted to kill prussia.Sounds like a regular rivalry to me.Yet you have to use the fact that he is prussia with godly ideas to call everyone and their mothers as gren said in these wars.Even a noob in this game will realise that eastern europe and north asia provinces are very poor.If this wasnt the case Russia would be making 2k per month.Even developed they are not worth much.

But let's all attack prussia because hey,we feel threatened.
How the hell is netherlands being threatend by Prussia??
Threatened by me sure i stated i wanted to kill them.But comrade??
Would he steal his trade??Would he bypass all europe to conquer him?
Such a mystery.And Spain is the biggest mystery of all in this session.
Joining this war to kill a nation far away which is almost dead anyway because of what?Boredom?When his own land is in portuguese hands?

Exaggeration is the biggest problem of this group and comrade should have seen this coming.They already ganked me when i was 5 province nation.Then they ganked me again when i had 8 or 10 provinces.Yet you go ahead and try to form a similar nation with 40-50 provinces or more.That's similar to building the death star in this group.

Also naveed is probably right.Comrade's diplomacy was bad.Not that he made wrong allies.But he stated his real intentions for the world to hear.He wanted to kill tornado and everyone knew that.The brothers already have a reputation here as good and very aggressive players so tornado was seen by some as the little child who needs protection.Tornado exploited that and he got lots of funding and help masking his true intention of making a huge unbeatable sweden by saying at first he wants to take historical swedish land,baltic coast etc.Then go a bit further.The russian player was unskilled and got killed as well making him stronger.And then he used the forming of prussia to show himself once again the one who needs protection.

So i justify comrade leaving.His nations is dead anyway and hoping to find allies while being prussia in this group is pointless.Dragon i have no idea why he leaves.He could pay naveed to revoke his cores in a fake war or something and try to be friendly with the rest.

Most unjustified is the leaving of gren.Threatening to leave after losing just one war in which he lost almost nothing compared to some of us.Then came back and when he saw that things didn't go his way decided to quit.Although i believe the main reason for his quitting is people accusing him of being a bad gm.I won't say he is a bad gm.I will say he is not a good one.A good gm knows what must be done fast when he sees a situation.If you need to have people bark and shout at you about the right decision then there is a problem.This was the case with the 2 Austrian matters.
But anyway to conclude i hope people stop acting like children and continue playing because for the first time in the game i'm back on my feet and i'm starting to make progress.And it's a shame for all of you to have all these hours wasted.The game only gets better once you are in late game.Let's reach that
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ileonu
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For all the people asking why Spain joined, its simple (at least from my point of view).

I needed France on my side in my struggle against Portugal. So i "joined" that side.

Portugal was backed by Morocco and USA. I had no chance against that alliance and it was France threatening intervention who forced USA out.

As i said before people shouldn't be leaving once they start losing. BB and i have been beaten several times, yet we are still there with a chance for recovering. Yes we are not "great powers" and will never be, and we will never "win" the game but i guess we understand that we are not only playing for us but for the rest too.

About the Prussia issue i guess most of the players feel threatened beyond reason by Comrade and Dragon (them being great players). With Tornado using (and abusing that) he got the advantage and probably won that war for good, but once the rest would have stop seeing Prussia as a major threat they would have turned to the new Prussia... Sweden... Next war could have been a big coalition against Tornado...

About the GMing well first i must state that it isn't easy and most of the times i see it as a very ungrateful job. And yes, Gren is human and has made mistakes. Altho im not sure if in this game we had a bad ruling from our GMs. Yes it may feel like Gren faced the decisions as GM biased by him being involved in the situations he needed to rule on (hard not to), but the system of coGMs worked well in the end.

Now i need to work... GOOD WEEK EVERYONE

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eric292

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First of all Luke, I demand to be added to the list of people who have been polite and well tempered; because holy hell. This thread is more rage induced then my telling someone to suck my D.

(just kidding, keep me off the list ;p)

Yikes! So I for sure have some two cents to add to this:

#1.))

First off on the Eastern Europe alliance against Prussia.

Yes Comrade's diplomacy at the end of the game sucked. If there's one thing I've learned this game as a budding regional power, its you've got to:

A.) Play the diplomacy game, all week, almost more than the actual game itself.

B.) Feel out, and be honest with yourself, when players are legit pressuring you into making concessions (Don't tell them to suck a D)

People need to lay off the heightened "Oh my effing G, everyone allied against Prussia 6v1"

As if it was something that happened within the last forty, or even, a hundred years. Tornado has been stopping Prussia since day one!

Comrade; bravely and valiantly, fought through the alliance that was formed against him and AGAINST THE ODDS, formed Prussia.

Let me be the maybe first to say, Kudos Comrade, no one wanted you to form Prussia and you did!!! Great work!

I am sorry you got dismantled in the end, the legitimacy of said partitioning is certainly not crystal clear...

Good job on getting the NaP with Ottomans, I can only shake my head and roll my eyes at the Austria/Otto war deck thing....

#2.)) My Favorite :) ~ Mughuls / Ottomans / Qing

First off on the Mughuls vs Qing fight.

Oh boy what an epic fight, and really what en epic session

GREAT GAME SESSION GUYS!!!! DESPITE THE OVERALL BUTTHURT AND SUCH, GOOD GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DEAD SERIOUS

Mughuls vs Qing, oh boy I'll remember this one for awhile. Two idiots against a vastly smarter foe.

After a horrible 40 years in the war two weeks ago Naveed and I were able to turn it around with the combo of carpet sieging and naval blockading,

Naveed, I am going to hob nob you privately, but let me publicly say. Great fucking job dude, way to turn that around Naveed!!!!

Dragon, you were whooping our fricken asses, what do you think finally did you in?

And don't say "Oh a massive alliance blah blah" ~ that's my main point here

Me and Naveed did this, no one else helped. Ottomans were in the region for a total of 5 months total. And that sparatic helped I would theorize set us back as it fueled an erroneously aggressive behavior on Naveed's part (we thought we had more help than we had since Otto would just retreat once he arrived)

ON MUGHULS AND OTTOMANS

I have been close friends with both of these nations for either the entire game (Ottomans) or for about a real life month (Mughuls)

Both of these players have been very weary about the other and it was only after Dragon's (great, but) horrible partition of Naveed land that Ottomans stuck a much, much better deal with Mughuls.

Naveed, (AND DRAGON) and Luke, as players, have clearly shown they only thing they care more about than their nations, is the integrity of the game, so it would be horrible to imply they have some kind of OP game lasting alliance...

They are both smart and navigated this game very well



(LAST ONE)

#3.)) GMing, The fighting, The leaving, The GROUP HUG


The multi-GM system worked and I want to applaud all of our GMs for setting up, hosting, and maintaining this game.

That being said, I do hope we see some new GM authority figures for the next session (due to people leaving).

Gren, I truly hate to see you go, you said you had too so I understand. I would bitch about you threatening to leave being not a good GM quality (at all); but I understand that emotions were running high and if you knew you had to take a break after this campaign it makes it a lot easier to say "I'm quitting now fuck it".

That being said, in the future, can you please consider holding that closer to the chest? It hurt the authority of your reign when you threatened to leave the game as main GM.

I have never seen a GM figure come ever at all even close to quitting their group...

That being said, Gren would you mind maybe being a nation selection consultant for the next game? Your ability to analyze situations and balance teams is invaluable. I think you could really help out the group if you still participated in selecting the nations for the players.

THE LEAVING.

OH MY FLIPPING JEEBUS YOU GUYS. EVERYONE CALM THE DICK DOWN!!! JEEZUZ SUCK A D EVERYONE, JUST SLOW DOWN A SUCK A D.

OKAY DONT SUCK A D, I DONT KNOW WHY I SAID THAT.

We had a great session!!!!! If we're shutting this game down, as it sounds we are, then we all need to take a step back and start looking at all the cool shit we each did!!!

We all accomplished and did some bad ass stuff.

Lets figure out WITHOUT EMOTION. What worked in the rules and what did not.

And that's really it. Good game everyone. There really was not anything too bad did by anyone. So lets move onward to the next session!

~~~~~

That being said, I think this current game still has a lot of fun stuff that could be played out!

For the current game, if we got a pool of hands on who wants to continue, we could either continue the game in a smaller audience at another time, or we can just keep going....I dont mean to imply we're restarting, but.... Lol.



THANKS FOR LETTING ME PLAY GUYS!!!

I also do not mean to place anyone on a pedestal above anyone else. I wouldn't say anyone person did something extraordinary to keep the group together. Everyone acted their parts well as either players or co-GMs
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Mark0628

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ileonu,May 5 2014
06:41 AM


Portugal was backed by Morocco and USA. I had no chance against that alliance and it was France threatening intervention who forced USA out.

don't sell yourself short, you wiped my 40k i sent to support. me backing out was a matter of logistics, unless mhugals decided to commit, the war would of been over by the time i managed to get more troops there :P America relishes the chance to fight France every chance we can ;)
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TornadoWatch
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For the record, I don't think we need to end.

The players who are genuinely upset about the way things are have left, so we can definitely continue hopefully drama free...

I nominate Luke as new GM and Marauder as co GM.
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goro

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Drama free??? :P
Mughals will swallow all qing and will play god for the rest of the game while GB will be swallowed probably by france or anyone with capable navy to hold it creating huge inbalance.The remaining prussian land is not that big of a deal because most of it is underdeveloped
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TornadoWatch
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A new GB perm will be needed if Gren is quitting
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Naveed

House of Lords
goro,May 5 2014
09:29 AM
Drama free??? :P
Mughals will swallow all qing and will play god for the rest of the game while GB will be swallowed probably by france or anyone with capable navy to hold it creating huge inbalance.The remaining prussian land is not that big of a deal because most of it is underdeveloped

Goro I could've taken much more land from Qing if I had wanted to. I'd say Qing is still very playable and is one of the top 6 countries for sure. I'm sure if Dragon continues to play I will pay for this act of mercy. I've not done anything (substantial) to prevent him from colonizing to the arctic (what's a few massacres and burned down colonies between friends?). Also stupid Zhou is a protectorate, so all I really took was Tibet and solidified control over SE Asia but lost 3 good provinces to Zhou.

Perhaps you should take over for either GB or Qing Goro?
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goro

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I'm pretty sure they are playable but from what i saw they were losing about 4 prestige every year which is crazy.
And i don't like switching nations.I don't even like joining a game after session 1.I play a nation from start until the game ends or the nation is gone.Brandenburg is in good shape now compared to the horrors i had to endure the past two and a half centuries
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TornadoWatch
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Naveed,May 5 2014
09:51 AM
goro,May 5 2014
09:29 AM
Drama free???  :P
Mughals will swallow all qing and will play god for the rest of the game while GB will be swallowed probably by france or anyone with capable navy to hold it creating huge inbalance.The remaining prussian land is not that big of a deal because most of it is underdeveloped

Goro I could've taken much more land from Qing if I had wanted to. I'd say Qing is still very playable and is one of the top 6 countries for sure. I'm sure if Dragon continues to play I will pay for this act of mercy. I've not done anything (substantial) to prevent him from colonizing to the arctic (what's a few massacres and burned down colonies between friends?). Also stupid Zhou is a protectorate, so all I really took was Tibet and solidified control over SE Asia but lost 3 good provinces to Zhou.

Perhaps you should take over for either GB or Qing Goro?

It's not like Goro has a country or anything
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eric292

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Yeah we need to figure out what we're going to do.

How?

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Naveed

House of Lords
TornadoWatch,May 5 2014
09:56 AM
It's not like Goro has a country or anything

I know, but GB and Qing are more influential, and what I've seen of him when I scroll over there, he spends most of his time being occupied by the rest of Europe. Just a suggestion.
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