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Discussion of other Raptor species; their anatomy, biology, ecology, etc.
Topic Started: Sep 16 2007, 11:04 AM (18,116 Views)
Patti
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Bea, I see you're in house now! I hope your hawk didn't get any of the Cordon Bleu's? Yet, they are so small and fast--and don't have much meat, I would imagine? How are they doing with our cold spell? Ch2-CBS said Camarillo was going to be 34 last night, but don't know what it actually was. Sorry to be off topic here, Bill. :o

Edit: Maybe this falls into the category of Raptor Prey!
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Bea
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:lol: Hahaha Patti, that's cute!!

I just e-mailed Ian to let him know how sorry I am that I haven't uploaded the Hawk pics yet and that I will defenitely do so soon!! I really like for you all to see it. He/She's beautiful! I'm at work, pictures are in Home computer.

The little blue birds are holding their own for now. All 6 are still visiting daily and are looking healthy. I've put out a couple of birdhouses, but so far I have no takers.
You can betcha that when the Hawk is there, the first thing Ralph checks is to see if the Cordons are there (to chase them off if necessary). He said they're really fast and gone in a heartbeat, but also, I'm not sure the Hawk is interested in them? This is a pure guess, but we have seen our Hawk ignore the Cordons as well as our Hummingbirds. One of the Hummers established his territory in the same tree the Hawk always lands, and it actually flies right in front of the Hawks face chattering his little face off at him. The Hawk doesn't even seem to glance at the Hummer.

Bill, do Hawks go after Hummingbirds as prey? Or do they just not bother because the Hummers are so fast? And the little blue birds - Cordon Bleus - (they are almost half the size of a regular finch), could the size (too small) or color (bright blue) be a deterrent for the Hawk?
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Patti
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Bea, this summer I watched a hawk for a long time sitting in profile on a telephone poll. I tend to think it was an immature Red-tail, but have no real idea. Anyway, one or two Mockingbirds were harrassing the hawk for a long time and it didn't flinch, could have cared less. I've seen Mockingbirds do this before, up closer to my own house, and the hawk had prey in the foot that time. That was some years ago, and at that time I assumed the hawk robbed the Mockingbird nest, but these are only assumptions. A woman riding horses with her daughter saw the whole thing too...and I sort of cringed that the little girl watched, but now I guess I would think otherwise. We were watching it together. This was long before I was interested in eagles and the hawks are something you never forget! I don't think a Cordon Bleu would even qualify as an appetizer. About like a mouse once the feathers were off. I hope.
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Patti
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Here's something that caught my eye that I've typed word for word from my reference book. An additional online source, maybe Cornell, referred to bison bones. Don't quote me on that Cornell source--it may be another website, possible Ostrich's great link he posted!

Buteo Regalis
Ferruginous hawk


Breeding Habits: Where trees are available it evidently prefers them and uses the highest available; however, the nest may be in a bush on a hillside, almost resting on the ground. Unlike Swainson's Hawk, which rarely nests on rocks or bluffs, this species commonly does so, or among boulders on a hillside. The nest is built of sticks, lined with cow or horse dung, sagebrush roots, or even bleached buffalo bones. Used again and again, the nest, especially if in a tree, sometimes comes to exceed that of a Golden Eagle in size, even reaching twelve to fifteen feet in height. Near such a nest on a cliff was a bushel full of bones and scraps of gophers eaten by generations of young hawks. Magpies often nest in the bases of these large nests. They are sometimes taken over by Horned Owls (Bubo); in one case the hawks nested on the ground nearby.

Usually larger species lay fewer eggs, but the Ferruginous Hawk has a larger clutch than smaller species of the genus. Three or four, sometimes five eggs are laid, ovate, white to bluish white, boldly spotted and blotched with dark and light brown, 56.0-67.5 x 45.6-51.3 (62.2 x 48.6 [53]). They are laid from mid-April to early June, rarely even July, chiefly April to May. Incubation is said to take about 28 days and the young fledge at about two months of age.

Eagles, Hawks & Falcons Of the World, 1989 Edition, Brown and Amadon, The Wellfleet Press, pgs 627-628
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peppermint
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Raptorman,Dec 13 2007
08:47 PM
As I stated earlier you now posts a link to the information provided but that only happened after I asked for it. So the perception prior was that it was your information. A little misleading if not in some cases illegal.

As an educator I have strived to not limit information to anyone based on what I think their level of interest or ability to understand might be. I let them set there own limitations. If readers are having trouble understanding the material I think it should be their decision to ask for clarity not another to suggest it is "over their head".

The nest observation thread is , to my understanding, not for discussion of material or events that are not currently happening as viewed through the various cams and the chat thread is certainly not for serious scientific discussion. Those locations are certainly going to dilute any serious continuity of a dialog.

I'm guessing the name Eaglepedia was inspired by the better know Wikipedia. Wikipedia by design is open for corrections, updated or additional material. It is a shame this sites name sake isn't.

If the powers that be wish to continue the present format that is their choice but I think the quality of the site is compromised as a result. And the responsibility we have to our students of all ages (but particularly the young) is not being met. I would sure hope that information learned/observed via the cams is used to update or upgrade the knowledge of existing students. Will you not correct supposed "facts" or "claims" disseminated by the less experience once you have learned differently via the cams? If not then this site is no more than pure entertainment and socializing. And has missed many educational opportunities. Bill :D

Bill: FYI regarding Eaglepedia....I made a request with both Peter and VCOE several months ago to have one of our resident "experts" peruse Eaglepedia for accuracy since this IS primarily an educational forum. We truly do not want to be posting things there as fact if, indeed, they are not. There IS a lot of good information there that helps to relieve the burden of new people asking basic questions over and over. Peter has been too busy to take on this task, I'm sure, but the last word I got was that wildlife experts from our other partners are gearing up to get on board to help monitor the content there sometime soon. We are also going to be creating an area specifically for Educators and Scientists to discuss the life of bald eagles, how the webcam and knowledge are being used in the classroom, their experiences, etc. Perhaps this will be a place of interest to you. I don't believe it will be for raptors other than bald eagles but it could change or evolve as the need arises from the educators. I hope you find this helpful.
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ostrich2
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Bea,Dec 14 2007
03:18 PM
The little blue birds are holding their own for now. All 6 are still visiting daily and are looking healthy. I've put out a couple of birdhouses, but so far I have no takers.
You can betcha that when the Hawk is there, the first thing Ralph checks is to see if the Cordons are there (to chase them off if necessary). He said they're really fast and gone in a heartbeat, but also, I'm not sure the Hawk is interested in them? This is a pure guess, but we have seen our Hawk ignore the Cordons as well as our Hummingbirds. One of the Hummers established his territory in the same tree the Hawk always lands, and it actually flies right in front of the Hawks face chattering his little face off at him. The Hawk doesn't even seem to glance at the Hummer.

Bill, do Hawks go after Hummingbirds as prey? Or do they just not bother because the Hummers are so fast? And the little blue birds - Cordon Bleus - (they are almost half the size of a regular finch), could the size (too small) or color (bright blue) be a deterrent for the Hawk?

I think as we have learned, "it depends" :D - mainly on what species our unknown hawk is. Bill has explained previously that buteos in general can't and won't catch very small birds like the ones you're describing (I've never heard of a bird called a Cordon Bleu - what is it?). The shape of the body, tail and wings of a buteo like a RT are good for soaring flight but don't give them the agility or ability to change directions very quickly that would be needed to catch a Cordon.

So I think for these birds to even be a possibe prey for that hawk, it would almost certainly be an accipiter (which as we have also learned have the long narrow tails and wings needed to pursue swift small birds like passerines). Now that I've watched "Birds of Prey Are Cool" about 100 times :D I know that that gives you 3 possibilities, goshawk, Cooper's hawk and sharp-shinned.

Someone posted that picture a while back of the bird (Bill identified it as a juvenile Cooper's hawk) that had caught a starling in their backyard. Now, when I was looking for information on the hawk I saw outside my building chasing starlings I did find some sources which indicated that a rough-legged hawk might also under some circumstances prey on smaller birds. Different sources seemed to differ on that point.

Stalmaster's The Bald Eagle is an excellent book to read to understand these factors in detail - it of course discusses the bald only, so the specifics are also specific to be bald. But the ideas are applicable to all species - Stalmaster discusses in great detail different types of prey in terms of their energy requirements. Different types of prey are different in the (1) the amount of energy that they provide when consumed, (2) how much energy it takes to catch them, and (3) what the bird's energy requirements are.
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Patti
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Ostrich, Cordon bleu waxbills are really pretty small. The birds in Bea's yard have to be escapee aviary birds. I have a friend who raises finches and she said these Cordon Bleu finches are becoming scarce. They are FAST. I owned one as a pet many decades ago and it flew free in my little studio apartment. Here are thumbnails.

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Bea
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ostrich2,Dec 14 2007
01:10 PM

I think as we have learned,  "it depends"  :D - mainly on what species our unknown hawk is.  Bill has explained previously that buteos in general can't and won't catch very small birds like the ones you're describing (I've never heard of a bird called a Cordon Bleu - what is it?).  The shape of the body, tail and wings of a buteo like a RT are good for soaring flight but don't give them the agility or ability to change directions very quickly that would be needed to catch a Cordon.
...

Thanks Ian, and yes, I was thinking along those lines also (species of Hawk) as to what prey they will go after. I do remember us talking about it before. So, maybe before we get to carried away with trying to figure out why he's not fazed by the Hummingbirds or Cordons, I will post the pics asap, so we can ID him, and then we can take up the subject of prey again. BTW, the Hawk with the Starling was also in my front yard - sometime last year. Somehow they all seem to like my yard :lol:

As Patti mentioned (thanks Patti for the pics also), the Cordon Bleus are not (supposed to be) Wild Birds. They are African Birds, and the 6 that show up in my yard daily must have escaped from somewhere. I've seen a blue leg-band on one of them, not sure if the others are banded or not.

Peppermint, that sounds really exciting!! Good things to come here!!
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Patti
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Bea: Good thing hawks like your yard because you get NICE photos.

Ostrich: A Cordon bleu is quite smaller than a Starling, but larger than a mouse, so I do suppose it would qualify. Sometimes denial kicks in. :(
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ostrich2
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Bea,Dec 14 2007
06:42 PM

Thanks Ian, and yes, I was thinking along those lines also (species of Hawk) as to what prey they will go after. I do remember us talking about it before. So, maybe before we get to carried away with trying to figure out why he's not fazed by the Hummingbirds or Cordons, I will post the pics asap, so we can ID him, and then we can take up the subject of prey again. BTW, the Hawk with the Starling was also in my front yard - sometime last year. Somehow they all seem to like my yard :lol:

Although as Bill has pointed out, any individual animal can and sometimes will behave in a way that is different from the "textbook" for their species, the hummingbird in particular I'd tend to speculate might not be a prey that any raptor would be inclined to go after. It would seem to be the worst of all worlds - extremely tiny and probably offering very little energy or nourishment, and a unique flight ability along with extremely agile and quick flight that is very different from every other prey species. Of course, if one were injured or simply blundered right into the hawk's reach somehow I don't doubt it might take advantage of that and eat it.
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Bea
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Exactly my thoughts too!!!

Patti, I am very fortunate and thankful to have all these different birds come to my yard, although more often than not I'm hoping the Hawk will get his meal somewhere else. My human emotions definetly get in the way when I see him grab one of "my" little finches or sparrows :(

BTW, you asked where I saw the Osprey. It was at Lake Casitas. Saw him on the last 3 trips that I went there, but have never seen more than one. Not sure if there are more, maybe I'll ask Ojailala or Ojaihikers over in Chat if they know whether there is a pair or just a single one.
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Patti
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Thanks, Bea, for the Osprey news!
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silveregal
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Shame on you, we came here to enjoy a common interest and enjoy different peoples ideas and information if I wanted to go an encyclopedia I would have, their are a lot of interpretations of information, I didn't know this thread was 100 perfect accurate, in fact since it has turned into Raptorman thread I only check in when I see Dr Sharps name. Please don't ruin everyone else's enjoyment of this forum.

Barbara
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Patti
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Raptorman,Dec 13 2007
09:31 PM
To be more specific I should clarify: A Bald Eagle is not a Bald Eagle is not a Bald Eagle. There certainly are some commonalities between them but as we continue to learn more about them the large numbers of differences emerge and shouldn't be ignored when considering "rules". 

Bill :D

Bill, many months ago, I WAS the person to say an eagle is an eagle is an eagle---or bald eagle. Can't remember.

I would like to thank you for calling me on that remark, which at the time, I didn't understand.

A-49 was my first bald eagle nest/chick experience. I didn't watch the other nests in 2006. In 2007 I watched all 3 nests. I observed A-63 fairly closely in general behavior, but not minute specifics, but enough to notice differences between A-49 and A-63.

As the weeks passed, I began to realize that 49 had quite a different experience than 63. A-49 observed the hack tower eaglets passing overhead. Once or twice Dr. Sharpe made reference to this visual availability, or maybe it was one of the IWS Santa Cruz Island crew who said this. I can't remember, but the source was reliable.

A-49 had some months away from the islands, but it seemed a safe route, looking back. A-63 flew to Anacapa, stayed only briefly, then chose a brave path. I have often thought that maybe the path was different because A-63 could not observe many juveniles, other than the older juveniles invading his safe territory, the nest. His parents would have presumably rejected him and he didn't have a group to hang out with, as did A-49. It would seem their (49 & 63) perceptions would have been quite different. Others in the forum commented on the lack of hack tower juveniles as well--and wondered what the effect might be.

I've a vague recollection Dr. Sharpe mentioned A-63 may have been with other eagles at some point of his migration--but I suppose we'll never know. So anyway, Bill. A Bald eagle is not a Bald eagle is not a Bald eagle (thank you Gertrude Stein)--and thank you, Bill.
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Bea
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Finally, as promised, here are some pics of the Hawk in our tree. We didn't get a shot of him flying in or out, only sitting in the tree.
The last two pics are not the best, but I included them because they are the only ones where you can see some of his plumage.
There really isn't anything in the pics for size comparison, but Ralph and my impressions are that he is rather "smallish". I know that doesn't help all of you much for the ID, but I'm just not good at guessing height, weight etc...
He is not a big Hawk :D

Click on pic, then click where it says full size!

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