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INFINITE Crisis
Topic Started: Oct 14 2005, 02:30 PM (1,550 Views)
Erick Von Erich
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I'm Big E and I tell it like it is
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Hey...here's another novel idea..an Internet Message Board Topic dealing with DC's "Infinite Crisis" series!!

Anyways.. has anybody picked this up, yet? I don't get my comics until Saturday, but it's supposed to be in my subscription box. Have a sinking feeling that the Powers That Be are trying to reset things to 1982 SuperFriends stuff.

I also can not belive that they're actually using "Infinite Crisis" as a title. That phrase was a joke kicked around by fans for years. Like: "imagine if the Fantasic Four originally went on a Space Shuttle mission and all of their 60's adventures were wiped out...what an INFINITE CRISIS that would be!"
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D.A.V.E.
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I'm a Marvel head, but I read it in my LCS.

While it was....I assume if you're a DC Fan it was GREAT - for me - DC's insistence that you read every tie in, every loosely connected issue of everything they've published over the past year - and i'm speficially referring to the ruckus caused over the OMAC Project/Wonder Woman arc, left a bad taste on my mouth
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The Swigg Lebowski
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I didn't read stuff just because it had that stupid OMAC label on it.
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Mad Dog
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I will at some point but I find it bothersome. DC has been using retcons as a crutch for bad writing for too long. They basically do anything without a care at this point because they know in 5-10 years they'll just rewrite history so it didn't happen.
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Erick Von Erich
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Finally sat down and read the first issue of "INFINITE Crisis" last night. They've alwasy said, straight-up, that this is a seuqel to "Crisis on Infinite Earths", but you can easily interchange out so many elements of the two stories.

Instead of the anti-matter shadow demons flying around and killing people, they now have OMAC robots. Instead of the the "cosmic storms", they now have the Rock of Eternity causing lightning storms in Gotham. They even have the "meeting on top of building while heroes watch the events" scenes that were all over the place in the original Crisis. There's even a "mysterious force" behind everything. If it's the Anti-Monitor or something connected with Qward...wouldn't THAT be shocking?! They even have a lame Marv Wolfman knock off on the writing and a lame George Perez knock-off on the art. All we're missing is Flash popping in and trying to warn people.

Funny thing is, you can pay 3.99 for INFINITE Crisis #1...or probably about 3.00 for the original "Crisis on Infinite Earths" #1.
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The Last Free Voice
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In a somewhat related note, I had money burning a hole in my pocket, so I picked up Identity Crisis and really dug it, so now I'm gonna start getting the whole story (OMAC, Rann/Thangar, etc) because I'm a diehard DC fan, and Johns is one of my faveourite writers, so this is right up my alley. Shall report back.
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Erick Von Erich
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Not to wipe the frosting off your cupcake, but the "whole story" won't be finished until mid 2007. After "INFINITE Crisis", the story will continue in "52"... 52 weekly issues that will explain the Crisis fallout and fill in the gap caused by "One year Later" gimmick that begins in two months.

You may like Johns and his legacy characters, but you'll also be subjected to Judd Winnick with his shitty dialogue and lots of BOMBS (the wonderful catch-all solution when you can't tie up a story). Along with Greg Rucka and his feminist worshipping ways.

Infinite Crisis isn't exactly a straight sequel to "Identity Crisis". You'll need the original "Crisis on Infinite Earths" if you're not familiar with Superboy-Prime, the Anti-Monitor and Alexander Luthor.

Of course, a few dialogue or narration boxes would clear things up in 1/1800th of the time...but don't hold your breath waiting for DC to do that.

Oh yes....Flash DID pop-in, in issue #4. Since they're really aping the original CRISIS right down to the art and layout, they should bring back the hotsy-totsy Dawnstar to shut me up.
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The Last Free Voice
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I have CoIE. Loved it. And I actually am excited about 52. I'm a fan of "Epic" storylines, what can I say. I missed otu on Seven Soilders, but this sounds cool. I'll probibly end up quitting on this due to my lack of money or short attention span, but I love comics, so this seems right up my alley.
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Erick Von Erich
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Really, I want "INFINITE" to blow me away...but it's done with such half-assed execution that it's leaving me numb. I was more excited for "Underwear Unleashed" than I am for this. I can't believe that this "big conspiracy plot" was actually their planned story. It seems more like a retcon patchwork/repair job. Not a story someone would plot out with any thought.

I honestly believe that The Writers sit down and pick up two random comics from their long boxes. Then they think "hmm...we've got a Showcase issue with B'wana Beast from the 60's and an Infiinty Inc issue from 1985... let's make these conected somehow!" Lock any fanboy in a bathroom for 20 minutes and he could easily make a connection... but that's not a professional duty someone should be getting paid for.

But to jump back to "Identity Crisis", it's been almost two years now and I'm still waiting for anybody to give me a legitimate reason why EVERY superhero knew Tim Drake's secret identity. Tread carefully when replying to that question, cuz' I've got alot of ammo to support how loaded with bullshit that plot element was.
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The Last Free Voice
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Um, Brad fucked up? I have no desire to go toe to toe with you on this, because I'm still relativelynew to Comics fandom. All I really know about is the GLC and whatnot. But please, go ahead and rant, because I want to know.
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Erick Von Erich
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Heh... it goes like this:

The Identity Crisis plot relies heavily on the interaction and comraderie of the old "Satellite Era" JLA. Basically, the team that was around from the mid 70's to 1984. The team that broke up about a year before the first Crisis. When the Crisis rolled around, the "JLA Detroit" was active (Steel, Vibe, Gypsy, etc..) Batman had left the JLA a good year before the 84 breakup to form the Outsiders.

Towards the end of Batman's time in the Satellite JLA, Jason Todd was just starting out as Robin. So it's possible that some of his buddies from the JLA knew that Robin was Jason Todd...and also that Dick Grayson was the first Robin.

Tim Drake as Robin came WELL after Batman's days in the satellite JLA. 1989. Roughly five years in real-time and probably a year in comic time. After the Crisis, Batman's original relationship with the JLA was retconned and became...cloudy. He wasn't buddy-buddy with Superman anymore and he was portrayed as the ultra-serious jerk he is now.

Batman's very protective of Tim. Tim's successor died. Batman hates that fact and doesn't forget it. Why he would tell heroes he hasn't seen or worked with in YEARS about the new Robin is completely out of character. Batman was happy that Tim still had a father and would never do anything to jeopardize that. So are we to believe that Batman, the paranoid recluse who hates public encounters, looked up his old buddies like the Atom and Hawkman and told them:" hey, y'know that new Robin I've got...his name's TIM DRAKE...look him up. Oh yeah, and be sure to tell your ex-wives, supporting cast members and anybody else in your comic". Incredibly out-of-character. I could maybe understand the old JLA guys knowing who Batman is...but the new Robin?!

Makes it incredibly hard to stomach the scene in "Identity Crisis" where Ray Palmer (Atom) and Jean Loring are talking in private about "Tim's dad"...as if that's common knowledge. Ray and jean haven't been together in years...so how they would even know about Tim Drake is ridiculous. It's possible that the Calculator hacked into some files and told Capt. Boomerang to kill Jack Drake...but that doesn't explain the Jean-Ray scene and how every superhero knew Tim was Robin.

People have countered: "well, anybody who knows who Batman is, can easily figure out who Robin is". I think Meltzer relied on this...but it's not correct. Yes, if someone knew that Bruce Wayne was Batman, they could have surmised that Dick Grayson was the old Robin. Bruce and Dick would appear in public together ALOT. Everyone knew Master Dick was Bruce's "ward" and they still do, today (a scene in Nighwting about two years ago referenced this). But Tim is NOT Bruce's "ward". In fact, the two haven't appeared in public. To the average Joe Public DC, there's nothing tying Tim Drake, an unknown average high school kid, to Millionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne. They may as well open a phone book and pick the name of any kid.

This is WWE levels of selective continuity. Where The Writers only rely on the comics that they themselves have read. E. Nelson Bridwell, Gardner Fox and Denny O'Neil are rolling over in their graves....and O'Neil ain't even dead yet!

Oh yeah...and I liked "Geoff Johns" junk the first time.... when a guy named Roy Thomas was doing it.
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The Last Free Voice
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Good points all around. Did Drake ever tell the new Titans? That's all I can think of. Or that guy who was always on the phone somehow found out.

And what did Thomas write?
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Erick Von Erich
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The Last Free Voice,Feb 2 2006
07:25 PM
Good points all around. Did Drake ever tell the new Titans? That's all I can think of. Or that guy who was always on the phone somehow found out.

And what did Thomas write?

Guy on the phone would be Calcuator, right? But even if Calculator found out, or if Tim told the Titans, that still doesn't answer how Ray Palmer and Jean Loring would talk about "Tim's dad" in private.

Roy Thomas is/was a heavyweight in the comics bid-ness. Among other things, he wrote some of the more popular Silver Age yarns of the Avengers and X-men (right before the X-men were canned). He took over Marvel's Editor-in-Chief duties when Stan Lee took a back seat.

He was one of the first fanboys to actually cross-over into the creative side and some of his work showed it. He had a knack for trying to re-create and update Golden Age characters from his childhood (same things Johns is trying to do with current DC and the 80's). The Vision was probably his first stab at this. At Marvel, he did the WWII based "Invaders". When he went to DC in 1981, he did a similar thing when he started up the Golden Age "All Star Squadron". He also spearheaded "Infinity, Inc", which featured legacy versions of Golden Age characters (sons, daughters and god children of old JSA members).

Unlike Johns, Thomas tried to work pathos or morals into his work. His Kree-Skrull War weren't just about an alien invasion...it included a commentary on xenophobic feelings and how gullible a mob can be. Johns just seems to be blowing his wad and trying to impress people with his trivia knowledge ("look..I brought back AIR-WAVE?!! Who remembers him?! Ain't I slick?!")

More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Thomas
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The Last Free Voice
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Well, You're right, I guess. All I can say is that maybe Brad assumed we'd all just go "Rumours spread". Or somesuch.
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The Swigg Lebowski
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I think part of the problem with comics today is that you have so much history to work with, as well as the retcon. You can't do ANYTHING without stepping on someone else's work.

Frankly, I think both companies need to close out some of their books. Even ones that have been big sellers in the past. I mean, they're never afraid to kill of Ghost Rider or Silver Surfer caliber books, why not Captain America or Superman?
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