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INFINITE Crisis
Topic Started: Oct 14 2005, 02:30 PM (1,551 Views)
Mad Dog
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ho ho who the hell are you?
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Captain America is an easier fix. Superman and Batman definately need something to help the books. Batman has been a mess for a long time.

Though I've really liked Teen Titans since it was brought back. It's nice having a new team book without a lot of history to bog it down.
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Erick Von Erich
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I'm Big E and I tell it like it is
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History ain't the problem. A Lack of decent editors is the problem. Alot of older writers weren't exactly an encyclopedia of comics knowledge. The editors would handle that.

It'd be: "hey, Mr, Editor..I'm working on a story where Daredevil goes to Mexico and gets transformed into a giant fish...any suggestions or continuity issues would be helpful". An editor might say "hmm..we had a story a few years ago where Arnim Zola was working out of central America and tried to make someone into a fish...I'll send you what info I have on that".

Image made this lack of editting popular in the 90's when most of their books had NO editting. An editor's job now is to mainly meet production schedules and work on sales, sales, sales. They're not "project managers" as much, anymore. With exclusive contracts and shit like that, writers are given WAY too much lee-way with their storylines and the editor's input is nil. (See: the crapfest that is "Black Panther")

Batman really doesn't have alot of continuity problems and potholes. Batman lives in a cave..fights crime with stupid kid. It gets plotholes when you start fucking around with crap like the 12-issue out of continuity "City of Crime" or try to bring back Jason Todd. Or "retiring" Jim Gordon just so Some Writer can fulfill his wetdream of writing a crapped-down version of "NYPD: Blue" in comic form.
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Mad Dog
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They just don't hire writers that know how to handle Batman. He's probably the easiest character, Spider-Man being the second, in the world to write for. Yet it seems they've had 2 guys that have been able to properly do Batman. For a character that's been around for almost 80 years I'd say he has been written well for maybe 25 years.
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Erick Von Erich
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If they're hiring bad writers, that falls under the editor's watch. They also oversee who goes on which book. It's like having a bad coach for your team.

They've had quite a few writers who have stood out... but the problem with Batman is that few contributtors were given proper credit until the late 60's. I don't mean "credit" as in acclaim, I literally mean credit as in "list their name as WRITER in the credits". In alot of the 50's and 60's stories, who wrote what is debateable. In the books themselves, it just said "Bob Kane".

Frank Robbins, Denny O'Neil, Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, Doug Moench (both times), Chuck Dixon and Jim Starlin turned in good stories on Bats, since 1970. The hacks they've had on Batman, post-No Man's Land (2000 on) have been weak. Again, the editors haven't given a darn. Right out of the block, they blew a key element: at the end of NML, Jim Gordon capped Joker in the knee. Joker then appeared in the first issue of "Harley Quinn" exactly two months later, with no noticeable knee problems or mention of his last "impactful" appearance.

Instead of dealing with any conflict between Gordon and Joker, they set things up for another "massive" crossover-- "Officer Down". Then followed that up with the ridiculous Sasha bodyguard angle and "Bruce Wayne: Murderer, Prison Bitch, Fugitive". It's funny how the Wayne Enterprises/Waynetech board of directors thought Bruce was so important that he needed a boyguard... but soon forgot about that "necessity" when the story ended.

I don't like to acknowlegde hacks with their proper names, but I believe Greg Rucka has been the worst Batman writer in my lifetime. With That Judd Douchebag and his bomb feitsh coming in a close second.

People complain about "Knightfall/Quest/End" when thinking of Batman in the 90's. But Denny O'Neil was the main Bat-editor for almost the entire decade. The guy ran a tight ship and had a long-term plan.
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Mad Dog
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I don't know. That woman on Nightwing has been awful since she got over there. Odd considering she was passable on Gotham Knights. But then that's what happens when someone tries to turn an obviously heterosexual character into a bi-sexual one.

I wanted to like Knightfall/Quest/End but they just fucked that up from start to finish. Knightfall was too rushed. I still don't believe that Bruce would've picked Azriel.
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Mad Dog
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Just to add to my Knightfall thoughts. I thought they really devalued Batman's rogue gallery during that storyline. Having him blow through A list villians in a few panels made them seem less important. Bane was built up really well but it was at the expense of almost everyone else in the Bat-Verse.
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Mad Dog
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I peaked at the torrent for the entire Infinite Crisis and ouch it's a massive 4.5 gigs.

I'm going to order Villians United off of Amazon tomorrow. Not sure if I'll ever read the other Infinite Crisis stuff. Something about the Villians book interests me.
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Erick Von Erich
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Yeah..stay away from comic torrents. I can't get into them, since you can't take your computer on the shitter with you.

The Woman on Nightwing (Devin Grayson) came aboard around 2002....well after O'Neil had left. O'Neil left right before No Man's Land in 1999, I believe (or shortly after). In short, O'Neil was/is not responsible for her.

Hmm....I've read every issue of Nightwing and don't remember any bi-sexual overtones. People have been referring to That Woman's run as "fan fiction"... because every female has been gushing over how "handsome" Nighwing is. Tarantula banged Nighwing and even got him to agree to marry her, temporarily. It's like That Woman was living out her fangirl fantasies about Nightwing. Like, if I had taken over "Wonder Woman" at age 13..I would've had her getting banged every issue and working as a stripper.

The reason I liked Knightfall was because the whole thing played as a shot at the "NEW, EXTREME HEROES"...like the crap Image was putting out, or Ghost Rider and Punisher. We were supposed to hate Jean-Paul..and we all did. When Bruce finally returned, everyone expected a big "ass-kickingly spectacular fight of utter awesome-ness" between Bruce and Jean-Paul. Instead, as they're setting up for the final fight, Jean-Paul suddenly realizes the error of his ways and gives up "the Mantle of the Bat (ugh, I HATE that term) without a conflict. Fanboys ---and WIZARD in particular--- screamed bloody murder and wanted VIOLENCE, but they completely missed the point. The whole idea was to show that Batman would not work as a "NEW, EXTREME HERO". In that sense, it was a successful story.

The villains were actually given ample time (usually at least one issue) before being taken out in "Knightfall". Batman had a two issue fight with Joker inside the Gotham tunnels that was anything but abbreviated. Film Freak and the Cavalier were taken out in single panels, but that was understandable. The only reason Bane was able to take out Batman was because Batman was completely exhausted from running the gauntlet of villains (exact same thing as Edge taking out John Cena after the Elimnation Chamber! HA!!)

And Nightwing was really....weird around 1993. He was estranged from Batman and off doing his own thing. Bruce commented that "Nightwing's his own man" and didn't want to suck him back into Gotham. Bruce and Dick had been at odds since 1983 or so (with a few temporary tolerations, like the Outsiders/Titans team-up, plus "Year 3" and "Lonely Place of Dying"). Nightwing wasn't an officially sanctioned Bat-family member for those years. Aside from a few instances, he never popped up in Gotham and it would have seemed weird to suddenly pop him in. The two didn't have their kiss and make-up session until late 1994. But not before Bruce had realized the error of his ways and had let Dick play Batman for about 3 months (see late 1994 and the "Prodigal" storyline...ANOTHER plot line that will be copied with "one year later").
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Mad Dog
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ho ho who the hell are you?
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There was some interview she did where she went on and on about how Nightwing's a bi-sexual. She also gave her opinion on the character and it was basically the complete opposite of how Nightwing's been written since he first appeared.

I actually had no problem with the ending where Azriel gives up the mantle. It was unexpected and original as far as comics go. My problem is I don't think he would've picked him in the first place. I'm not sure that he would've picked Dick either but I think he would've picked a carbon copy of himself. But I guess, yes I'm going there, I would question his selection of Terry in Batman Beyond too.
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The Last Free Voice
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Mad Dog,Feb 21 2006
07:39 PM
I peaked at the torrent for the entire Infinite Crisis and ouch it's a massive 4.5 gigs.

I'm going to order Villians United off of Amazon tomorrow. Not sure if I'll ever read the other Infinite Crisis stuff. Something about the Villians book interests me.

It's a fucking great read. I can't wait for the "Secret Six" mini that has spawned from it.
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Erick Von Erich
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Egads... despite the funny name, Master Dick is NOT bi-sexual. I'm thankful she kept that crap out of the comic. If anything, the guy's a hetero horndog.

That's the long running tasteless joke since the 50's--that Batman and Robin are bi-sexual or gay. Few realize that Robin is essentially Batman's "Rosebud". He represents Batman's lost childhood. It doesn't help that Michael Chabon re-opened the "boy sidekick means the hero is GAY" theme with "Amazing Adventures of Kavelier and Klay" aka "I Wish I Could've Given Jack Kirby a Blow-Job".

DC Animated is a different canon, but you did see the JLU episode that dealt with Terry's origin, didn't you? Amanda Waller revealed that Terry was sort of a genetic carbon copy of Bruce. The episode only aired once, but if you're into torrents, look for the episode titled "Epilgoue"
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Mad Dog
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Actually, I was using that episode to justify discussing Terry in canon. I had forgotten about the whole clone thing though. Cartoon Network really needs to do a better job of reruning the Justice League.
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Erick Von Erich
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Mad Dog,Feb 22 2006
12:24 PM
Cartoon Network really needs to do a better job of reruning the Justice League.

Preach on, Brother Dog! When they had all of TEN episodes, they re-ran them, continually, every weeknight for about four months in 2002. Now that they have 70-some episodes, they jerk with the schedule and never re-run 'em. Miss it once and you're screwed. Alot of hardcore fans have given up on the show because of its horrible scheduling.

To complicate matters, Terry (or at least someone in the Batman Beyond costume) popped up in print in "Superman/Batman", during the latest alternate-dimension/time-hopping story.
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The Last Free Voice
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To re-up an old thread, I got the first five issues of the actual Inf. Event and I have to say, I'm impressed. I thought it may seem too overblown and hard to follow, but Johns does a good job keeping everything moving while still being comprehendable. I honestly don't see why this is getting such a bad rap.

And Superboy Prime knocking some B-lister's head clean off is badass.
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Erick Von Erich
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The Last Free Voice,Mar 28 2006
06:53 PM
And Superboy Prime knocking some B-lister's head clean off is badass.

Ah..found it. This garbage and IC as a whole is getting a bad rap because it reads like the "change for the sake of change" stuff from the early 90's. Remember when Cyborg got KILLED and came back with an all-new bad-ass armor?!! Awesome-tac-u-lar-ness!!!

Yeah, me neither.

The intent of this story is to clean up all the changes of the 90's (or post-Crisis). But they're using the exact same tactics and plot devices that they're mocking (killing Pantha and Magpie.... okay. Can't wait until they kill Nemesis!!! or, or... The Wraith!! He was in two issues of Batman around 1986, after all!!) Killing characters "just because"...well, it's stupid. Does anyone give a shit that Pantha is gone? Did anyone give a shit that Pantha was around?! So why have a forgettable character get killed just to pump up the "impact" of your shitty story?

It's simply professional fan fiction. And having a 52 issue safety net to go back and explain your plots is so fucking amatuer. If you need 7 issues, plus 52 more and countless specials and tie-ins to explain your plot...well, that's just bad writing. The plot itself does not read like a planned-out story..it reads like a patchwork retcon job. When Alex Luthor was revealing his plans, I'm surprised that he also didn't take responsibility for the Order of the Scriers, Norman Osborne's return and the Spidey clone!

DC's been using the standard line "this will re-define Character X and his place in the DCU", ad naseum, since about 2000. Nothing ever changes and when the dust clears, we're right back to the status quo.

Another annoying thing: Dan Didio saying that they planned this as far back as the Doom Patrol return?!! Sure.

The multiple earths things isn't a big deal at all. There will still be multiple Flashes, Green Lanterns and continuity... the heroes will just have to go through three more panels of dimension hopping before each team-up.
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