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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 25 2011, 05:12 PM (68,342 Views) | |
| Infinite Devil Machine | Aug 11 2014, 02:35 PM Post #691 |
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A Very Cunning Linguist
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It sort of feels like WWE got Goldberg right before they ever had him. The way they pushed Brock Lesnar in 2002/3 when he first came in. He comes in, plows through guys, and has his first couple roadblocks (guys like Bubba Ray, Jeff Hardy, and Rob Van Dam) early before being properly built up to work the big main event matches. Goldberg came in, after being out of the major wrestling spotlight for years, having only worked a few Japan dates, comes into a promotion where he's not especially welcome. A promotion that, mind you, doesn't have nearly 200 contracted workers to feed to Goldberg and build up a streak. Every match Goldberg had meant something. He wasn't "fed" anyone early. He never had a chance to warm up before jumping into longer matches with The Rock, Jericho, and Triple H. And really, nobody could have a good match with muffin top, biker shorts Triple H. |
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| Scrooge McSuck | Aug 11 2014, 06:15 PM Post #692 |
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I'll get you next time, toilet!
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Lets not blame anyone for the lack of quality in Goldberg's matches. Nobody could have a good match with Goldberg. Triple H refusing to sit out and drop the belt at Slam '03 still pisses me off royally, but he's leagues better than Goldberg in the ring. It's not even close. Goldberg's only pros in the ring is the less is more mentality, and that just doesn't fly in the top of the card stuff. Even Warrior had 15-minute PPV matches and he was the prototype of bulldozing people as quick as possible. |
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| Infinite Devil Machine | Aug 12 2014, 05:22 AM Post #693 |
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A Very Cunning Linguist
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I disagree. Goldberg was totally capable of having good matches given the right opponents. Hell, look at Goldberg/Raven on Nitro where he won the U.S. title, Goldberg/Page at Halloween Havoc 1998, Goldberg/Nash (of all people) at Starrcade 1998, and Goldberg/Scott Steiner at Fall Brawl 2000. Goldberg even had a good match in his WWE run against Chris Jericho at Badd Blood and busted his ass in a shockingly good match against Mark Henry on RAW. I'll grant you that Triple H is definitely a better wrestler when he's healthy than Goldberg ever was. I think a healthy Triple H/Goldberg match would have been pretty solid, actually. Hunter brings the psychology and storytelling that Goldberg lacks, but, if he was healthy, would also bring the physicality and size that could legitimately match up with Goldberg. All of Goldberg's best matches have been carried by stories or storytellers. Raven knew how to work Goldberg and get heat on him, Page is known for meticulously planning out everything he's going to do in his matches, Nash has a famous quote about Goldberg; (Regarding Starrcade '98) "We knew we were gonna have to go twenty, and it was hard to twelve at a hot show." So Nash worked around it and guided Goldberg through a hard-hitting affair. And Steiner/Goldberg was just two big lugs dropping bombs on each other. Triple H is smart. He knows how to work a stiff. Goldberg is a stiff. But remember, this is the same Triple H who dragged a decent match out of Khali once at a SummerSlam. Triple H/Goldberg could have been solid if Triple H hadn't been falling apart at the groin. |
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| Erick Von Erich | Aug 12 2014, 01:18 PM Post #694 |
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I'm Big E and I tell it like it is
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Let's get the guys in the truck to queue that up: [doHTML]<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VgVNscmCXHk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/doHTML] |
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| Infinite Devil Machine | Aug 12 2014, 01:57 PM Post #695 |
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A Very Cunning Linguist
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Absolutely love that match. Raven was kind of an underrated miracle worker in the late 90's and early 2000's. Remember Raven hand-holding Terry "Bam Bam" Gordy through a great match in ECW? Or Raven gelling with an injury rattled and ragged Dr. Death Steve Williams for a good match shortly after Dr. D's dud of a WWF run? Heck, people often cite Raven/Rhyno at Backlash 2001 as one of the best hardcore matches ever in the WWF. Dude, Raven was even getting rave reviews on the house show circuit having excellent undercard matches with Matt Hardy and having great matches with D'Lo Brown on HeAt that nobody was watching. |
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| Erick Von Erich | Aug 13 2014, 08:50 AM Post #696 |
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I'm Big E and I tell it like it is
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Oh golly. You're one of them Raven fans, aren't ya? It's well-documented that I'm not a fan of his. He's solid in the ring, but I've personally never found his matches to be a highlight. He seems to get a LOT of verbal blow-jobs from fans, which has turned me off, as well. When was the Raven/Gordy match? Back to the Goldberg match-- I had forgotten all about the Flock's mass run-in. Love the spot where Raven gets lifted back into the ring area, too. I'm sure they were plants, but when I saw it "live", I actually thought they were rabid fans. The crowd was so into this match, that it made me believe it. |
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| Infinite Devil Machine | Aug 14 2014, 02:07 PM Post #697 |
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A Very Cunning Linguist
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The Raven/Gordy match was after Gordy's horrible WWF run as The Executioner. Which, mind you, also came after Terry Gordy's drug and alcohol abuse induced coma. Remember the clunkers Gordy had with Undertaker and a few of the WWF's undercard guys? The fact anybody got a good match out of Gordy in this time period- when he was basically a corpse being manipulated by a complex series of ropes, pulleys, and some form of Voodoo magic is an absolute miracle. The match Raven and Gordy had convinced people that Gordy "still had it", until literally the next show he was on. Here's the match- By the way- http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x14bpv_ra...rry-gordy_sport |
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| Scrooge McSuck | Sep 2 2014, 06:44 PM Post #698 |
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I'll get you next time, toilet!
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Here's another angle I completely blacked out of my mind that kind of makes little sense when you realize where it went: For about a month after WrestleMania 7, they are doing these videos with all the managers trying to persuade Andre The Giant into signing with them, and getting told no in various "comical" ways. Jimmy Hart wants to build a Super Team with Andre and Earthquake. Andre says no, Earthquake destroys Andre to write him off of television and cover for some extensive surgeries to relieve the pain in his joints. Jimmy Hart then convinces Tugboat into becoming Typhoon, and then somehow the Bushwhackers are fighting for Andre's honor and lose, and Andre is never seen again. 1. Andre The Giant putting over someone that strong, even in 1991, should've meant more of a push than "token heel challengers to the LOD by the end of the year." 2. Jimmy Hart's second choice is convincing TUGBOAT into turning heel. 3. The Super Team of Fat Guys never won the belts... until turning face more than a year later. 4. The Bushwhackers suck and would rather be murdered than have them defend my honor... sorry, my Bushwhacker hate has to be thrown out there a lot. |
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| Erick Von Erich | Sep 2 2014, 08:05 PM Post #699 |
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I'm Big E and I tell it like it is
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Tugboat turned on the Bushwhackers in 6-man tag bout, so they were out more for revenge than defending Andre. Andre backed them after they challenged the new Natural Disasters. Andre was seen again, in the Bushwhackers' corner at SummerSlam that year. The Disasters put him over strong, selling for his lethal Crutch Shots. Andre had also backed Jake Roberts in his feud with Earthquake in Spring 1991. It started as "Earthquake doesn't like snakes". Nice continuity in that one, since Andre had apparently overcome his own fear of snakes from 1988-1989... thanks to turning babyface and getting to hang in the face locker room with Jake. WWF Magazine ran an article on the two, about how they had put the past behind them and now wanted to screw with that big mean Damien-squashing Earthquake. The timeline of the Andre vs. Earthquake incident and the Jake vs. Earthquake feud kinda' overlapped each other. On television, I think it went like this: -Andre vignettes telling off managers -Jake vs Earthquake ends in a no-decision as Quake "kills" Damien -Jimmy Hart starts taking about creating a blocker team for the Nasties ("I want the Nasty Boys to be tag team champions forever, so I want to create another team as insurance"; also explains why the NDs didn't win the belts as heels) -Andre tells Jimmy Hart "no", Earthquake attacks him -Tugboat turns in 6-man against Nasties and Earthquake -Jake vs. Earthquake is forgotten, as Warrior comes to him to "find the darkness" or whatever |
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| Scrooge McSuck | Sep 2 2014, 08:31 PM Post #700 |
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I'll get you next time, toilet!
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I forgot about the forming the team to keep the belts on the Nasty Boys part. Seemed like they were just place-holder champs until they finally gave them to the LOD, so I sometimes forget they even had the belts at the time. On the subject of Jake/Quake: It was cool that after so many of the same, tired "guy is afraid of snakes" angles, the heel actually did something about it. I always credited that to Jake's heel turn, although I doubt any connection was ever woven together by anyone on commentary. |
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| Scrooge McSuck | Sep 2 2014, 08:37 PM Post #701 |
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I'll get you next time, toilet!
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Just another random comment: It feels like an eternity between WrestleMania and SummerSlam. Especially as we get into the 90's and the roster thins out more and more. King of the Ring was very hit and miss when it came to actually build, but at least it was something to spark interest so we don't have 5 months of dead zone between PPV's. I lied, one more: Hogan vs. Slaughter is given away for free on a throw-away PTW Special (or as free as cable subscriptions with USA Network were) the week before SummerSlam, where they are headlining a tag match, and several months after a WrestleMania Main Event. That would be like giving away Savage vs. Hogan or Hogan vs. Andre on TV the week before Slam '88 and '89. TV ratings, interest, or something must've been slipping to give the match away that quickly. |
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| Erick Von Erich | Sep 3 2014, 07:16 AM Post #702 |
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I'm Big E and I tell it like it is
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I remember April 1988 until August 1988 seemed like a huge void. The WWF's roster changed up quite a bit and some new faces and roles were also introduced. If the 1988 "Wrestlefest" card had been moved up to mid to late June; and been available nationally; it would've helped with continuity. (It's been beaten into the ground that the SummerSlam '88 card was rather lacking) |
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| Scrooge McSuck | Sep 3 2014, 09:29 AM Post #703 |
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I'll get you next time, toilet!
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Take away the main event, it's probably not even the strongest MSG show of the year, let alone worth a PPV price tag of $20-25. I always found it funny you can hear the Fink hype the upcoming MSG card like it's just another live event before the Main Event. |
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| Scrooge McSuck | Sep 4 2014, 10:25 AM Post #704 |
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I'll get you next time, toilet!
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Ugh... Fall of 1991 the talent depth really starts to show. Berzerker, Warlord, Hercules, Col. Mustafa, Big Bully Busick, Skinner, Kerry Von Erich, Jim Duggan, and a returning Jimmy Snuka seem to litter the Primetime lineups every week. Smark darling Ricky Steamboat is shown frequently but is clearly half-assing it, too. |
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| Scrooge McSuck | Sep 5 2014, 07:54 AM Post #705 |
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I'll get you next time, toilet!
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I'm watching an old WWF DVD called "Action!", and if there's one good thing about the PG Era, is the lack of degrading matches with the "Diva's" like Bra and Panties matches and randomly trotting them out to appeal to the 11 year olds of the world. |
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