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DEV's see pale master as success; Proof that dev's dont listen to players
Topic Started: Mar 23 2010, 11:09 AM (4,709 Views)
RoBi3.0
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Success and perfection are two different things, no?

Anyhow can I have a link to the thread you mentioned so I may further educate myself on this issue?
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Drfirewater
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Mar 25 2010, 02:02 PM
Success and perfection are two different things, no?

Anyhow can I have a link to the thread you mentioned so I may further educate myself on this issue?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2851002&posted=1#post2851002

i believe this is the thread but its the same thread that eladrins comments about how they plan to fix the pale master is in from jerrys show notes.
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Okay, I have read the thread.

First I find it interesting that you choose to focus on that one comment by madfloyd without acknowledging his next few follow up posts. Like the one where he admits he didn't work on the PrE and was basing his opinion on it's success only on what was told to him by the person who did "owns" it.

Then in the same thread Eladrin posts planned improvements for the PrE a lot of which are fixes for problems that people have been complaining about. So I think that it is kind of foolish to make the claim that Turbine "doesn't listen to players" Sure you and quite a few other players feel that PM is a disaster, but that is an opinion. For whatever reason Eladrin doesn't feel the same way, that is a opinion a well. I would have to think however given that Eladrin being a developer can see the whole picture and has a better understanding then the players of the situation.

Eladrin also explains that Pale Master was never meant to be a "all character build" PrE and that it is a niche build on purpose. A lot of people seem to be under the impression that every PrE needs to be uber min/max effective, but once again that is an opinion.
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Drfirewater
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the point wasnt that he never had one...or that he may or may not have worked on it ... the point is there have been 100 posts since the launch on lammania about people disliking how underpowered it is compared to other pre's how it requires 5 times more AP then other pre's how it requires more feats then any other pre gives the smallest bonus of any pre and not able to heal ... no harm scrolls ... death ward blocks even inflict ... and stances or FORMS have no way to turn themselves off and have no unlimited access like other forms do.

Pale master is the worst PRE available to date and he was under the impression that it was succesful.

how can a dev post on the forums in favor of something that has been the major point of discussion for the last two months and simply NOT KNOW that it was garbage?

I like macfloyd but what he did was prove that the DEV's dont talk to each other or pay attention to the boards during lama or live cause if they did there wouldnt be even one person on the dev team that would not know the people are in uproar over the first wizard pre.

how do i know this stuff having not gone on DDO forums much at all but he works for the development team and didn't know that?

do the dev's not have some group meetings where they go ... this is what has happened bounce some ideas off us so we can go back to the pale masters dev room and have some fresh ideas on how to fix this problem?

maybe they dont ... if they dont then they should at least listen to what the people have to say.

I understand people dont like reading negative stuff about there hard work but ... TOUGH **** ... i get negative work related feedback and what do i do ... i take it and excell past it .. that is how i have managed to get a raise 4 times in the last 2 years ... Turbine turns a blind eye everytime someone talks bad about them rather then say "Well what can we do to fix that persons issue ... is it nothing or is it a problem that we can solve."

personally i think pale master should never have been launched live .. just cause its in lama doesnt mean it needs to be rushed to live ... and that is turbines big flaw.
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Drfirewater
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I can give you a direct feed link to exactly why Pale Master is the worst PRE in the game ... and really the fixes eladrin clames are comming in update 5 are not going to fix pale masters at all the problems are not just in the self healing.

Quote:
 
look at what the other pre's do for there classes

stalwart gives major boost to ac and intimidate and dex bonus on armor stance unlimited time but limited amount of uses and its only draw back is that your movement is slowed ... which works with the fact that your intimidating anyway and most times gonna be standing still.

that makes you much more effective

frenzied berzerker adds bonus damage vicious which in return does 1d3 damage to self when you have 800+ hps you dont even notice it but it adds more con and str to you and has unlimited uses. and stacks with all the other types of rage in the game

that makes you almost over powered.

tempest - increases your attack speed (dont have one so cant tell you the draw back but i can tell you i dont know of one per say and that explains why there are a billion of them) that increase is almost lightning fast and i believe its unlimited uses and no spell point cost.

that makes you over powered even in a multiclass almost to the point of unbalanced.

Arcane archer - adds massive damage add-ons to your consumables increasing your damage output by quite a bit.

would be really powerful if archery wasn't a dead art in DDO.

kensai - you get powersurge as much as 10 times a day (highest amount i have gotten but sure you can get more) which is for all intensive purposes a rage that stacks and increased crit range ... no draw back at all.

makes you very powerful if you build right but seems to be only to balance out dps by barbs who are over powered.

then you have pale masters ...

you have to spend more AP then any other pre .. requires more feats then any other pre requires you spend spell points to activate powers (necrotic touch is not so bad cause only 1 sp but stances and summons cost much more) when wizards already have a small spell pool compared to all other magic dependent classes. There FORMS or stances are short duration an cost 30 sps (equivalent to a non max emp'd firewall wonder what is more useful in game?) and gain if in lich stance a +1 to dc's if in wraith they get incorprality which i am not 100% sure is even working cause the mobs dont seem to have to much trouble hitting through it. And they look cool ... so cosmetically its nice ... but the draw backs are your limited to duration and use based on crazy spell point cost .. and you cannot heal yourself and even if deathward wasnt cast on you ... the only spell that can heal you is only available in inflict serious scrolls which are not only expensive but only heal about 26 points if you are spec'd for increased use of scrolls.

the pre was stripped of its biggest asset Necrotic Touch which was doing 500 points of damage and now does 50-100 points of damage ... it cannot be used to heal yourself in form (which is its biggest problem more then worthless damage)

so when you look at the other pre's and compare it directly

PALE MASTERS GOT THE SHORT END OF THE STICK ... and a couple more scroll less spells are not gonna fix this pre I am sorry Dev team wake up call is here.

if your gonna add more spells to make PM's more appealing you better make a harm scroll vendor too ... cause it already costs more AP and more SP then its worth to be a pale master ....

If it wasnt for the fact that lich form gives me a +1 search and disable device skill because of the bonus int i wouldnt use it anywhere in mission ... right now only use wraith form to move around town at monk speed.

love to see a dev explain how update 5 is gonna fix PM and make it worth while ... cause even if your not a pale master you can still cast new spells when they come out .. regardless of if you are a pale master or not so new spells do not a PRE make.
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Samius
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I feel Pale Master is successful. And fits my play style more then any other PRE.

Some things are not true false, but how you see them.

One mans trash....
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Mar 26 2010, 09:00 AM
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requires 5 times more AP then other pre's how it requires more feats then any other pre gives the smallest bonus of any pre and not able to heal ...

Quote:
 


frenzied berzerker adds bonus damage vicious which in return does 1d3 damage to self when you have 800+ hps you dont even notice it but it adds more con and str to you and has unlimited uses. and stacks with all the other types of rage in the game

that makes you almost over powered.

Playing devils advocate here FW.


I choose Barb because that's what I know
fb1 2 feats 9 ap (deals damage to self and can only heal self with pots and can not use any other pots or clickies)
fb2 9ap
fb3 9ap

pm1 1 feat 7 ap (can still heal yourself plus bonus hp)
pm2 1 feat 8 ap (can still heal yourself plus bonus hp)
pm3 11 ap (can still heal yourself plus bonus hp)

The issue is that you can't heal yourself on one option that is not required for the pre the same with the skeletons. The Pre on my barb cost me 6 ap an is the best but you can not get it anymore.

just fanning the flames a bit is all and pointing out that fb requires more then base pm.
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the point is the benifits of all the other pre's are great and there are almost no benifits to pale master

as i said i am one and i love my caster .. not cause he is a pale master ... that part sucks all hell ...

sami is not saying what he likes about pale master because there is nothing that is directly pale master that is worth all the AP spent .....

haveing no way to heal yourself or for others to heal you (note this is being fixed in update 5 a good 2 to 3 months from now) for 3 mins straight and to go into that form costs you 30 spell points when wizards already have low spell points.

only advantage you get from pale master III is bonus damage to a sect of spells that currently is all but non existant.

In samius' case he seems to think the dc means something ... but the truth is if he already takes the necromancy feats then he only gains 1 dc point which is practically nothing and he has to be in lich stance to get it .. its like 1 ac ... the difference between 82 and 81 ac is nothing worth noting .... same like the difference between 38 dc and 37.

its not worth the cost.

Its fun to be a pale master in wraith form move at monks speed ... but once you get into a mission (unless your soloing which is prolly another reason sami likes it cause he is anti social :P ) someone is always doing something stupid like casting death ward ... removing the already weak ability to heal yourself using inflict serious scrolls which do about 26 points of healing per scroll ... the scrolls are slow and most mobs hit you twice in the time you get one off doing more then 50 points of damage so you spend most of your time running in circles.

sami likes to build casters for melee ... so i am sure that he of all people SHOULD beable to see how getting hit in melee and having no way to heal yourself is a bad thing ....

let alone the 30 sp spent every 3 mins if you want to stay in stance ... funny how stalwart stays on until you turn it off .. and frenzy is unlimited ... but pale master forms are limited have high cost and do very little to increase your potential.

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You want a long reply from me Okay.
Normally on a 13+ wizard lvl build the prerequisites are nothing I don't all ready have taken.
Spell Focus: Necromancy, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I, Wizard Intelligence I, Level 6 Wizard

so for 4 Ap

I take the race toughness Ap boosts and would pay more, so an extra 5 yes.
Necrotic Touch sure t is not a ton of damage but sometimes it gets the job done, when little else will.
Summons lvl 1 more of a quick distraction, I leveled them up right away to the highest I can use. I use the archer the most as it will stand more or less still and shoot until it dies.

Tear 2

Prerequisites Wizard Pale Master I (wouldn't of had before but kinda need it for part 2), Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy (fairly standard), Wizard Energy of the Scholar II(standard), Wizard Intelligence II(standard), Level 12 Wizard (hard to be lvl 13+ with out this one.)

so I get more Hp yes please
Up my guys to black bones ok, I don't use them a lot but when I do I am glad they are around, and a little better is a little better. I mostly use them to grief my party. Summon one in middle of a fight and watch them try to kill it before the figure out it is mine.

And I haven't retrained yet so I need to do that some time and get the last tear but 3 doesn't sound bad.
2 Ap for more Hp? I think I will train asap.

Would I upgrade all 3 guys probably not there is lots of fire in the game but maybe the archer.

Forms, lich is the only one I would think of taking as I am not a run away caster. I am a melee fight them caster. Con and Int sound good, but I don't really need to go Lich but I might make it happen soon and play with it some. But if I did get an extra 40 plus hp it would make that hit I might take twice a fight go along with my cordop /bodyfeeder/ healing from the lich keep me up. But I need to think about it. Wail and kill the one guy left with melee sounds good to me.

But you see the positives for me are greater then the lack of more Nerco spells. Once those are here I will be super stoked. And might change my style to align more in to the PRE.

It just needs some polish, mostly spells and those harming heal scrolls would be nice but I will take a mass AOE, Vamp touch wouldn't suck!

Why do Wizards have low SP? I have more then enough to get to the shrine, and most times save one “in case”.

And +1 to DC is huge, when the mob is 50% saving against you say orthons in Shavrath making them 55% is kinda a big deal! Let alone if you push it to 70-75%.

Why they have no real control is kinda a flavor thing I think. Once you go undead you really can't go back, but do you want to stay that way the whole quest? I don't think so. I bet it tested really strong and people just haven't got it there. In magic we would call a card like this a sleeper. It takes something else to bring it to is full glory, I am betting the new spells are that something else.
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Mar 26 2010, 09:00 AM
"Pale master is the worst PRE available to date..."
Whoa...What about Deepwood Sniper....ranged combat is bad enough...a 1 shot clickie that has about the same cool down as many shot...ooo yay I click a button and I Crit, wait 15sec or so, repeat....and on top of that that's all you get it's not furthered at lvl12 or anything special in between.

So...I'm sorry but I have to disagree...in my opinion...Deepwood Sniper is the worst Prestige Enhancement Path.

*edit

As far as Pale Master goes...I'm loving it

On Limm(my dedicated Pale Master)..he's more of a support caster, enervate works awesomly so do the other Necro "support" spells with a little love from Heighten, with a False Life clickie I love the Arcane Skellie(like Samius said mostly to grief the party)...

On my lvl13 Wiz the Arcane Blackbone is awesome(can cast WoF) I use it to further my SP, cause I never turn off Maximize Empower or Extend(I just can't remember to turn them off and on) I can stop casting for a sec and let the Arcane take care of a few mobs, I have yet to try out the Forms cause my Wiz is missing the Toughness Feat, and I'm not to interested in the Wraith Form(looks more for melee and that doesn't fit my casters)
Edited by Nim, Mar 26 2010, 04:21 PM.
Orien DDOCast Build Guild Character
Limm Dul the Necromancer Drow lvl2 Cleric/10 Wizard Pale Master
Other Characters on Orien
~Nimzaraka~(lvl20 Wizard - Pale Master - 3rd Life), ~Nimalika~(lvl18 Paladin/2 Monk - 2nd Life), ~Nimfu~(lvl11 Monk/7 Wizard - Ninja Spy/Pale Master - 2nd Life), Nimhish(lvl20 Favored Soul), Nimja(lvl12 Rogue/8 Fighter - Acrobat/Kensi), Nimaeti(lvl16 Ranger - Arcane Archer),Pseudonim(lvl10 Rogue - Mechanic), Nimazayn(lvl10 Cleric - Radiant Servant), Nimbael(lvl5 Barbarian), Nimpho(lvl8 Bard/1 Rogue)
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Well, DFW I am having trouble seeing the point of this thread.

You claim that Turbine doesn't listen and that there are hundreds of posts complaining about not being able to heal in forms.

Eladrin says, "there are several new arcane negative energy spells coming in update five, including an AOE that can be used to heal yourself in undead form" and "In Update 5, the wraith form incorporeality being considered concealment will also be fixed, as will a bug that was preventing casters from being able to hit themselves with negative energy with AOE spells like Mass Inflicts."

You say the AP cost is to high.

Eladrin says, "We're also considering consolidation of some of the summons to reduce the overall action point cost."

You complain that there is no way to turn off forms.

Eladrin says, "it's possible that we'll add a "get out of my form" options"

You complain about the Death ward bug.

Eladrin says, "There are still problems with the PrE - they shouldn't make saves against inflict spells, and there's still the death ward problem, but those are bugs that will get resolved."

You claim the only Bonus PMs get is the increase in Neg energy damage, but that is useless due to lack of spell selection.

Eladrin says, "The negative energy boosts that Pale Master receives are of minimal use at the present, as Chill Touch is the only recipient of the bonus, but there are several new arcane negative energy spells coming in update five, including an AOE that can be used to heal yourself in undead form, and the Skeleton Mage's aura of pain."

So it should be clear to anyone with a brain that Turbine is LISTENING to the players and making improvements the PM PrE.

That brings me to the point of my post. Whats the purpose of this thread. Are you just bitching to the sake of doing so or do you want Eladrin to admit the PM is a disaster (which isn't an opinion shared by every player apparently) then send you a written personal apology?

I doubt that will ever happen and fail to see how it would solve anything.


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again the fixes you mention are not all "COMMING UPDATE 5"

some are considering and some like the healing option are straight out not good enough.

point of fact

aoe spells cost more mana then spells that effect only one target so if you dont use the stupid skellies which are one shot ponys at best (personally i like being able to do crit firewalls so i dont have anything other thent he free summon you get with the class cause its a billion AP to get them all and they suck even the mages) you will see that 90% of effective self healers use scrolls more then mana unless they are favored souls or clerics.

next thing to notice is eladrins post has got alot of "oh **** someone gave proof that we dont read the freaking forums i better give some promises for two months from now to save face" its a no brainer that they where gonna add more necro spells soon .... but that isnt what i was angery about ...

what i was angery about is how anyone could see it as a success when there have been more arguements and hate posts on DDO forums about the half assed release of Pale Master ... and sami i am dieing to see how you use the bonus 30 hps and dumd as snot skellies at lvl 20 ... only place i have every summoned him is in sub T as a joke and in VOD as a joke cause he at times survives hitting him from behind for 5 points of damage when he manages to hit.

People loved Pale master in lama ... until they nerfed it ... then instantly started the posts about how useless pale masters are since nerfed ... no dev responses ... they mention how you cannont get harm scrolls in vendors so there is no way to heal themselves WITHOUT USING MANA and there was no response

finally eladrin makes a response and he says nothing about adding scrolls of harm (which only makes things fair for pale masters as other umders can use heal scrolls) which is all people where asking for.

wait let me do this in order (and remember i am a pesimist and turbines track records is why)

Quote:
 
You say the AP cost is to high.

Eladrin says, "We're also considering consolidation of some of the summons to reduce the overall action point cost."



summons which no one uses cept samius ... they also mention making them more useful ... which without a hierling type bar is impossible cause they suck. have almost no hitpoints you cannot choose a target for them and they tend to get themselves killed and cost what 30 sp to recreate.

they mention nothing of the sp cost which is the number one reason no one uses them.

Quote:
 
You complain that there is no way to turn off forms.

Eladrin says, "it's possible that we'll add a "get out of my form" options"

its possible ... it means dont be angery if you never get it ... lets be honest here turbine has said its possible to alot of things like two years ago when they said its possible that half orcs will be out at aniversarry two years later still no half orcs but its possible they will be here by year end ...

and a get out of form option means only 1 thing ... you gonna have to pay to get back into form in spell points .. only reason people want to get out of form is cause they cannot heal themselves ... they dont want to get out of form just to go back into form and lose more spell points.

Quote:
 
You complain about the Death ward bug.

Eladrin says, "There are still problems with the PrE - they shouldn't make saves against inflict spells, and there's still the death ward problem, but those are bugs that will get resolved."


This is nice ... they are bugs that will get resolved ... not a fix is already in the works and will not be there for update 5 ... just we know its an issue.

Quote:
 
You claim the only Bonus PMs get is the increase in Neg energy damage, but that is useless due to lack of spell selection.

Eladrin says, "The negative energy boosts that Pale Master receives are of minimal use at the present, as Chill Touch is the only recipient of the bonus, but there are several new arcane negative energy spells coming in update five, including an AOE that can be used to heal yourself in undead form, and the Skeleton Mage's aura of pain."


your right here this is the only peice of good news we get at all ... but notice it didn't address the one issue for healing the self in undead form that people have been wanting ... SCROLLS ... no one wants to waste there sp if its not needed ... why is it that a fighter can umd a heal scroll but a caster cannont even get harm scrolls to heal himself? I started a post and kept it strickly PC 9 pages later no one fighting and no dev response.

skeleton mages aura of pain ... i dont really think it matters when skeleton mages die in one hit ... and personally i never had one anyway cause the AP cost is too high.

and aoe healing is nice if you have more then one summoned undead ... i am pretty sure you can only have one at a time ... i am not sure maybe sami can chime in on this one since he uses all the different types of summoned undead cause they are so worth the AP ....

Quote:
 
That brings me to the point of my post. Whats the purpose of this thread. Are you just bitching to the sake of doing so or do you want Eladrin to admit the PM is a disaster (which isn't an opinion shared by every player apparently) then send you a written personal apology?


My post really had nothing to do with pale master at all ... it was just that it proves that the DEV team either dont talk to each other which is stupid or they dont get the negative feedback (or just dont hear it) of there most monumental screw ups in lama or at launch ... cause the macfloyd reply was a good month after the pre was launched and more then 5 weeks of threads about the screwup that was the early launch of Pale master is somehow being seen CURRENTLY as a success by turbine ... it just proves that turbine only listens to the people who are yes men ...

-------------

to sami ... the melee wizard

since you are one of a handful of melee wizards in the world of dnd let alone DDO.

and since you claim to have all the pre's AP spent i would love it if you could do a break down on Sound concepts of how you would build an effective WIZARD who took pale master ... break down what feats (dont need to go into what levels that would be a bit much) you took what enhancements you took (cause as i see it there is no way to be effective in any elemental damage school if you get all the pre's enhancements especially the summons)


----------------------

NIM

I am sure your loving Pale master ... what level is you caster?

i have heard that at low levels pale master is really nice ... especially when lvl 8 mobs have only a couple hundred hps and necrotic touch actually is worth a lick then.

same like sami who is the unusual case of a caster who is always in melee range so he can make use of necrotic touch more frequently then anyother actual ranged caster like oh 90% of wizards on any given server.

Wraith form is the best of the two cause it gives you 50% chance of being missed when hit (so a 50+ on a d100) and it stacks with blurr and displacement (it doesnt give you 75%/100% miss chance but it does mean they have to roll over 50 to break through incorpreal and roll again over 50 to break displacement then roll to hit)

I agree that deep wood sniper is crud but its also not a completed PRE ... i can see how the first stage sucks ... yeah i have a deepwood sniper only lvl 8 but pretty sure all the tiers are not out yet or am i wrong?

if part two and three had increased crit range it would suddenly be the best pre in the game cause a 16-20 crit range on a bow would be the solution to ranged damage issues.

thus Palemaster is the worst complete pre in the game.
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