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ShatnerMA (Running); MA-Noob to Intermediate Players Welcome
Topic Started: Oct 27 2011, 03:40 PM (4,098 Views)
Shatner
*Spicy* Crew
If there isn't a fixed version already, I can fix that myself; the connection code is tedious but not complex.
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Shatner
*Spicy* Crew
Blackwald is almost perfect province-wise. It's slightly high on water provinces but that's less of an issue for CBM 1.92.
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Shatner
*Spicy* Crew
I am strongly leaning towards the map Winner pointed out to me, Blackwald, because it has 144 provinces - 105 land, 32 in the big ocean, and 7 in various lakes (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=325). That is exactly the right number of land provinces and that ocean is just the right size for two water nations. The lakes can be anyone's game since CBM 1.92 makes getting land nations underwater a lot easier.

This beat out Pangaea because the terrain is more varied and has better choke points. So, is everyone okay with this map? Do you have any other maps in mind?

Now, I've never hosted a game before and I'm unsure of what, if anything I need to do to ensure the capitals are placed more-or-less fairly. We want the land nations pretty evenly separated and we don't want either of the water nations to start in a lake. How do I do that, exactly?

Any tips from those in the know?
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Shatner
*Spicy* Crew
The game is created (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=ShatnerMA)! We are using a slightly tweaked version of the Blackwald map (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?c9qnz3d6494z55s) to ensure fair capital placement; a big thanks to Cowbird for writing the script to do that.

So go submit your pretenders and we'll get this game started!
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Winner
Tartarian
The only negative from my point of view is if I'm forces to deviate from my intial plans and head underwater early...

Mind you, going underwater early with Shinuyama is something I should be thinking about anyway. I'm pretty sure Agartha and Ermor would also be able to put together an UW expansion force with little challenge as well. Plus, as you say, once nations get their research down, there should be a decent amount of competition for sea provinces from everyone, as well as land.

I look forward to the game. Good luck everyone! I'll be making contact in RP speak from now on, unless there are technical issues worth discussing.

Maho Tsukai has claimed his rightful place as leader of the Bakkemono, soon the entire world will fear His name!
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thistlechaser
Maenad
Agartha Ready. Looking forward to seeing the carnage that happens in games without silly AI.

Fire will loom over the peaks of Mount Ashta, dark will be the skies for thirty-eight cycles by four again, and the lost hammer will be reforged. Woe be to the Kuthakar, the souls marked to have wronged the Ancients.
-From the texts of Aklara. Author unknown.
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<span style=Calahan</span>
Member Avatar
Here fleeing from the tyranny of Shrapnel dictators
@ All / Shatner

There should already be a Blackwold map on the llamaserver with balanced starts for 7+2 that I did for the Wet Ham Evolution game I ran a few months back. (but I can't recall which version of the Blackwold map it is based on though, as not sure if v2 of the map was out then. Also not sure if v2 has made any actual changes to the map from v1, or if it's just a new link (since that is not at all clear from the Blackwold map thread).

Although I just checked the map linked in the OP of this thread, and the starts look pretty good. But one major thing that I think should be noted, and the main reason I’m posting (as I can’t see mention of it, although apologies in advance if it is mentioned and I’m just blind), is that the starts appear to be pre-selected fixed starts, rather than random fixed starts. i.e. every nation has been given a pre-set specific start location by whoever did the map editing. And this in turn means everyone's neighbour has been pre-determined as a result.

As a regular map balancer I would strongly advise against using pre-set starts unless the map is either a scenario (such as the Dawn of Dominions map), or pre-set fixed starts has been agreed beforehand by all the players, and/or noted in the OP before sign-ups. As pre-set fixed starts can make a huge difference to a lot of nations. Since while (for example) it can be seen as just 'bad luck' for a nation to get Mictlan and Niefelheim as nearest neighbours, it's another thing all together if the map editor decided that a nation should be GIVEN Mictlan and Niefelheim as neighbours. In my early newbish days I played in two games that had pre-set fixed starts without me knowing, and I wasn’t at all happy afterwards after I found out. (like starting in all mountains/wastelands with a MA Abysia heavy blood build)

As if you're going to be shafted by a crappy start, the taste is far less bitter if it was just due to a bum round of random chance, and not because of a decision the map editor made, even if the editor pulled the starts of a hat him/her self. It also prevents any problems later in the game/after the game with accusations such as “you only did well / I only did bad, because you were / I was GIVEN XXX as a neighbour by whoever did the map, as you got an easy rush / I was unfairly rushed as a result” (or a scenario to that effect). And while I am certainly not saying any of the fine players in this game would make such a complaint, I’ve seen enough arguments like that to know it’s better to remove as many sources of arguments pre-game as possible if you can.

Another big factor of pre-set fixed starts is that if you know who your neighbours are going to be, then you can also design a build/strategy with the sole purpose of rushing a pre-set target, and which is likely to be far less of an option with random fixed starts. This can work for and against nations, but in general it tends to favour the early game powerhouses IMO, who can power towards their most suited (weak) neighbour in full knowledge of exactly who it will be from pre-game planning.


The above is in no-way meant as a criticism of the person who did the starts though, as the starts look good to me with regards their spacing etc, and sorting maps is not the easiest thing in the world if you are new to it. It's just I can't see it mentioned anywhere in the thread that the starts are in fact fixed, and so are not random in any way. This as I said is a BIG thing not to be mentioned.

The easiest fix for the attached map is probably just to replace the #specstart <nation> <province> command with #start <province>, as then the starts locations should remain the same, with each nation being given a random (eligible) location from a choice of 9 start locations (or 7 / 2 to be more accurate), rather than a fixed choice of 1.
Never try to help pig-headed douche bags. It's never worth the trouble, as some people are just too stupid and arrogant to listen

Sombre is an egocentric asshole - Jarkko

Calahan can spread shit with the best of them.
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Shatner
*Spicy* Crew
You bring up a good point Calahan and I'm fine tweaking the map. However, I tried making the change you suggested and I'm getting a bug when I make a game with all 8 players. For some reason two land nations end up with the same start location. One of them shows up like normal, the other has no fort, no troops, no pretender; just an empty province.

Here is the original code Cowbird was kind enough to provide me:

#allowedplayer 28
--Ermor
#allowedplayer 32
--Marignon
#allowedplayer 34
--T'ien Ch'i
#allowedplayer 36
--Agartha
#allowedplayer 42
--Jotunheim
#allowedplayer 44
--Shinuyama
#allowedplayer 45
--Ashdod
#allowedplayer 46
--Atlantis
#allowedplayer 47
--R'lyeh

#specstart 28 52
#specstart 32 45
#specstart 34 105
#specstart 36 76
#specstart 42 164
#specstart 44 24
#specstart 45 153
#specstart 46 131
#specstart 47 89


And here is my modified version of that code:

#allowedplayer 28
--Ermor
#allowedplayer 32
--Marignon
#allowedplayer 34
--T'ien Ch'i
#allowedplayer 36
--Agartha
#allowedplayer 42
--Jotunheim
#allowedplayer 44
--Shinuyama
#allowedplayer 45
--Ashdod
#allowedplayer 46
--Atlantis
#allowedplayer 47
--R'lyeh

#start 52
#start 45
#start 105
#start 76
#start 164
#start 24
#start 153
#start 131
#start 89

Any thoughts on why this is misbehaving?
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Winner
Tartarian
Terrain #76

it has the terrain mask 528. I believe this is Mountains (16) and No Start (512). Alter the terrain mask to 16 and try again.
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Cowbird
Member Avatar
Chud
#76 is actually a pretty bad start location. #90 or # 98 would be better. (maybe)
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Shatner
*Spicy* Crew
Thanks for the help, that fixed it. However, I am leaning towards moving that start location from #76 to #82. #82 seems like a good spot without being too much closer or farther from any of the start sites.

Also, does anyone have any complaints against me changing some of the ocean provinces to deep sea. Having the entire thing be one uniform terrain type is a little boring, even if the two types aren't much different.
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Winner
Tartarian
I say go for it. The rest of the map is pretty diverse.
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Shatner
*Spicy* Crew
Attention Everyone: I have gone in and changed the map slightly based on feedback from this thread. The game has been updated to use Blackwald_For_ShatnerMAv2. If you have already downloaded the map, you will need to download this one and use it instead. I have updated the first post to reflect this, but you can also download the map here (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?sgdpa139e3nu3mx).

Beyond that, get those pretenders in (just four more) and we'll get this game going!
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<span style=Calahan</span>
Member Avatar
Here fleeing from the tyranny of Shrapnel dictators
@ Shatner

Is the map ok now? Let me know if you have any problems/need any help with it etc.
Never try to help pig-headed douche bags. It's never worth the trouble, as some people are just too stupid and arrogant to listen

Sombre is an egocentric asshole - Jarkko

Calahan can spread shit with the best of them.
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Nimiria
Troll
Where to get the new CBM mod?

Edit: Okay, have it :)
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