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All Eyes on Marverni; Executor vs GFSnl
Topic Started: Sep 13 2012, 07:02 AM (4,363 Views)
frosted
*Spicy* Crew
TOURNEY NEWS: Today began like any other day. Practice duels were being fought, chatter and kibbitizing as normal. Many of the tourneys contestants stood present in the IRC channel. But today would not be a quiet day of "shit he's rushing me!" or "god damn you have too much research", no today we saw the birth of a beast.

Executor sensed something may be amiss when his capital suffered bad event after bad event: baleful star after baleful star after baleful star from moment one.

Moments later the channel was in a panic, Marverni's national spell Wayward star! Alt 0! A targeted remote that attacks a players income as early as turn two! Comments came fast and hard "IMBA!" - "NERF!" - "THE END OF THE WORLD!". "CBM SHOULD BE REBALANCED TO PREVENT DUEL ABUSE!". (<- this is a joke ;p)

As peace slowly spread, counters were sought. Advice was given. Wayward star kills the caster and wastes a cap recruitment slot! Plans were made by many who feared potentially meeting Marverni in the next round. Pretenders. Scales. "Just take misf3" - "no take luck!". Is wayward star op? Is Marverni going to run away with the coveted frosted cup!? The only thing that can answer this are the results in tourney play: all eye's are poised on the Executor/GFSnl match - now entering fall of the second year.
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Diabl0658
Maenad
Might I suggest not using a map where the enemies capital is known from turn 1?

Also, you can easily get around the wasted cap mage issue (not that marverni has any cap only mages) by using an awake lich with astral magic. This also lets you cast it turn 1. Consider an awake dom9 o3s1d3mis1mag1 lich with w1s3d4. Lich casts wayward star every turn on enemy capital starting from turn 1, while mages are recruited to research up alteration. Once youve hit alteration 3 the lich becomes a pretty good indi killing dude and helps with expansion and remains a great immortal thug throughout the game, and by time youve hit alteration 3 the enemy capital is pretty sufficiently nuked.


Of course you could easily counter this by taking order 3 and patrolling your cap with a bunch of light infantry.
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Danayel
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Unfortunately Diabl0658, to do that would mean that every game was no longer balanced map wise.

If for example you randomed on top of, or surrounded by, wastes or swamps, or a resource heave nation with only 1-3 neighbors etc.

Given the short duration and intensity of most duels, a bad location for your capital could tip a close game against one player thorough no fault of their own.

At least by using a map with fixed starts, both players know exactly what they are getting in for and it is relatively even.

But yeah, Marverni just got scary.
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Diabl0658
Maenad
Its possible to make a balanced map with more than 2 possible starting locations. Even if the variations in starting location are one province away from each other.
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frosted
*Spicy* Crew
I'm not entirely sure that wayward star is op. It's very good, and it may be entirely too good but information allows you to adjust and although I'm uncertain if it's actually op, it is certainly op if you are caught completely unaware as was Exec. This post was half intended to just give everyone a heads up.

A lot of the conversation in irc revolved around counters: Oracle, taking Misf, hell even just keeping some patrollers handy. I would at minimum suggest taking Order 3 if playing vs marv.

I've played a game vs wayward spam before. I won it iirc. After, I remember thinking that although I was scared of this spell it wasnt particularly op. That said, I also was aware of it.


------

Diablo edited in the lich strat, now that really is sort of terrifying. But also costs a pretender turn to cast each time. Tradeoffs.
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GFSnl
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Love your write-ups.

And It seemed at the beginning of year two I still was losing against the Jags and slingers.
But now after a few won battles it's pretty much a coin flip I think.
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Deathjester
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A dead mage is a pretty steep price to pay, after all.
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Executor
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I'm the captain now
I overlooked that spell while checking out Marverni. Would have changed my pretender a bit had I known probably. At the very least it's made for an interesting, frustrating! but interesting duel. :)

Wayward spam seems most efficient in the first dozen turns while you're still dependent on capital gold income. Of course, some nations with cheap, low resource troops can deal with it easier, but I think some resource heavy nation like Aby would just get fucked in almost any case since there's no way they'd be able to compensate.

For example, take a Lich like diablo suggested. In the first two turns you'll be able to cast it 3 times which is just too powerful.



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Deathjester
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Wasn't one change made to a "kill the caster"-spell so that it would actually kill immortals? (via transformation combined with kill or something like that?) Can't remember.

For this specific spell - it would be a good idea to add a Holy magic requirement to the spell - that way it would be uncastable by pretenders, ie immortals (excepting the odd prophet :-) )
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
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Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
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High Elves
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lourdes
militarist
Taking O3Mf3 as a counter will not work well, as dominion grows slow and even in own dominion scales will progress to O3 slow so regardless of your starting dom there is no risk for marverni to start spamming it. Many nations don't have reasonable early patrolling power or have to keep full expansion party to patrol.

I think this spell shouldn't be Alt0, as in reality it can be needed on Alt0 only in duels with known capital location, and it's tooo powerful for this stage. In any other case Marverni will not cast it early.

One more idea - to make it S2 or ES. Becomes much more expensive, Or shift it to higher Alt (but in this case immortal rainbow researcher will solve this problem too easily).
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Deathjester
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lourdes,Sep 13 2012
12:08 PM
Taking O3Mf3 as a counter will not work well, as dominion grows slow and even in own dominion scales will progress to O3 slow so regardless of your starting dom there is no risk for marverni to start spamming it. Many nations don't have reasonable early patrolling power or have to keep full expansion party to patrol.

I think this spell shouldn't be Alt0, as in reality it can be needed on Alt0 only in duels with known capital location, and it's tooo powerful for this stage. In any other case Marverni will not cast it early.

One more idea - to make it S2 or ES. Becomes much more expensive, Or shift it to higher Alt (but in this case immortal rainbow researcher will solve this problem too easily).

For the S2 or ES - like I said, add the H requirement. Then no pretender can cast it. And you'd have to kill your mages to cast it, and hence, the cost would be high for this strategy.
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
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Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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Fantomen
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Voice of *****
I haven't played against it yet, but it seems to me that the only possibly OP factor is the ability to abuse an immortal pretender, so if anything is to be done it is to either ban that trick or simply implement the fix Llama used for the machakan summons.

The ability to sacrifice a capital recruitment slot and a mage to cast a national blaeful star doesn't seem OP to me given that Marverni is a subpar duel nation apart from this. I LIKE the fact that it has something special and powerful that makes them unexpectedly strong in a duel!

So I suggest leave the spell as it is, but prevent the immortal trick somehow. Either through house rule or a mod hotfix. If the spell for example just feebleminded the caster in addition to killing him, the immortal pretender would need to heal up in between casts, making the trick still viable and good but with a more reasonable tradeoff.

I DON'T like the idea of a holy path requirement, since the stargazers should be able to cast it and they don't have holy.

If holy or earth is added you've nerfed it into the ground which would be boring and unfair to GFSnl who has been smart enough to discover a trick that others missed. He shouldn't be punished for that more than is absolutely necessary, and only if the spell is truly broken.

I know I would take huge issue if my strat was invalidated in the middle of a tournament!

A pretty central question is of course if GFSnl used the immortal trick or not, did he? And if that's the problem he could simply stop doing that and sac mages for the spell, which would be perfectly alright.

Apart from all that, it seems a bad idea to rush ahead and change stuff based on a single duel and inexperienced bovine excrementing. So I hope this is tested out a bit in practice duels before round two to see if there is actually a real problem.

Remember, it's perfectly ok if it's fairly powerful, as long as you can consistently beat it with skilled playing.
This sentence is a logical fallacy.
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Torin
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whats the point in creating that spell to be cast on turn 1?

Is whoever who created it just mad?

We can stop calling these mods CBM and isntead CUBM because these are unbalances.

Its not that Marverni would beat you because of this but its is a bit extreme.
By the way to counter lich there shoul be a a change like fantomen says.

If people decide to nerf this altogether a change of nation should be awarded to GFSnl if he wants.

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Deathjester
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Good point Fant, I missed that the stargazers did not have H.

Then the "Machaka trick" seems appropriate (for those who do not know, this means that it would permakill even an immortal).
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
Malazan Empire
Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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Boo
*Spicy* Crew
Fantomen,Sep 13 2012
11:32 AM
I haven't played against it yet, but it seems to me that the only possibly OP factor is the ability to abuse an immortal pretender, so if anything is to be done it is to either ban that trick or simply implement the fix Llama used for the machakan summons.

The ability to sacrifice a capital recruitment slot and a mage to cast a national blaeful star doesn't seem OP to me given that Marverni is a subpar duel nation apart from this. I LIKE the fact that it has something special and powerful that makes them unexpectedly strong in a duel!

What CBM does for other spells that kill the caster is to also give them some insanity with each cast I think.
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