Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Dominions 5 Mods. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
All Eyes on Marverni; Executor vs GFSnl
Topic Started: Sep 13 2012, 07:02 AM (4,367 Views)
Fantomen
Member Avatar
Voice of *****
llamabeast,Sep 14 2012
09:10 AM
Interesting!

It's an oversight that it doesn't cause insanity on any surviving caster, like the other "Kill Self" spells. I wonder if there are any others where that was missed.

I think for the next CBM I will fix the lack-of-insanity issue and probably make the spell Alt-1, or even Alt-2 (opinions welcome as always).

I think it should definitely stay at alt 0. Baleful star is only alt 4, so increasing the research level of wayward star would sort of make it obselete, the current point being that you can skip alt research and still have it. The duel usefulness of it is also a good thing IMO, not a bad thing.

And as tests have now shown, it's not overpowered.

So my opinion is to just add the insanity and leave it as is otherwise.
This sentence is a logical fallacy.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
BlanketThief
*Spicy* Crew
Alt-0 is fine for wayward star; It's usage in a game with multiple opponents is pretty minor, and even in a 1-on-1 format without an immortal pretender the opportunity cost to use it is pretty high.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lourdes
militarist
Fantomen,Sep 14 2012
03:45 PM
llamabeast,Sep 14 2012
09:10 AM
Interesting!

It's an oversight that it doesn't cause insanity on any surviving caster, like the other "Kill Self" spells. I wonder if there are any others where that was missed.

I think for the next CBM I will fix the lack-of-insanity issue and probably make the spell Alt-1, or even Alt-2 (opinions welcome as always).

I think it should definitely stay at alt 0. Baleful star is only alt 4, so increasing the research level of wayward star would sort of make it obselete, the current point being that you can skip alt research and still have it. The duel usefulness of it is also a good thing IMO, not a bad thing.

And as tests have now shown, it's not overpowered.

So my opinion is to just add the insanity and leave it as is otherwise.






I think it would be better to make it cheaper but higher in research (mayb be higher then the Baleful star spell). In this case Marverni will not loose fun of being unique with time in long MP games (they will be effective spammers of this spell , able to spam all provinces cost-effectively), where many will have the star, but it will limit them in the only situation they tend to use it now - in duels.

I heard many voices then even with O3Mf2 people get screwed by multiple barbarians attacks here. What will be with Mf3 I can only imagine. And this spell ,maybe not sounding imbalanced enough for some as a standalone strategy, can find some synergies with other short term or longterm strategies, so consequences can be higher then they look now.

Luck itself is somethign which can break any game. But when player himself chooses to play game with the fate taking bad scales is one situation. When you give a gun to an opponent wo can with some probability, with zero risk, win just by achieving enemy capital with something unbeatable army, or in best case just take off all the gems or ruin a lab or temple.. It has nothing to do with relying on the suffering player's skill.

And the main argument- Baleful start on lvl one is not a strategy, it's a "free national bonus in duels" because you always want to cast it. No risk to loose more then the opponent, enforcement the opponent to take high order build. So it has nothing to do with strategy enrichment.

My proposal (making cheaper but later) - really enriches the game and creates uniqueness without creating imbalance.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Diabl0658
Maenad
wayward star is already pretty cheap at 80 gold and 3 astral pearls. Also, no one is going to spam it on 'all provinces', it will always be concentrated on enemy capitals and forts.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
lourdes
militarist
..large armies if it make curse, labs with no forts..but anyway, the main idea is to make it higher. The price is a matter of compensation if it's needed.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Fantomen
Member Avatar
Voice of *****
lourdes,Sep 16 2012
09:18 AM
And the main argument- Baleful start on lvl one is not a strategy, it's a "free national bonus in duels" because you always want to cast it. No risk to loose more then the opponent, enforcement the opponent to take high order build. So it has nothing to do with strategy enrichment.

Yes it IS a strategy. The opportunity cost for casting this early is a capital mage recruitment slot, certainly not a no brainer when you're facing someone who might rush you right away, what will you defend with when you sacced all your early mages?

Don't you "always" want to use Ri thugs as TNN, is Ri thugs therefore "not a strategy"?

And certainly even after your second fort is built, a fort being a pretty serious gold investment in duel and a big risk for being raided before finished, the opportunity cost of not recruiting a battle mage is still significant.

Why shouldn't Marverni have this national advantage in duels? I think it's pretty cool and unique!

Other nations have serious duel advantages like glamour thugs, niefel giants or national big tramplers. Wouldn't those advantages "force" you to plan a counter? Wouldn't you be "forced" to make an investment in fire resistance and cold scales when facing abysia? Aren't you "forced" to counter Hinnoms chariots by getting a troop that can block them? Aren't you "forced" to rush a blood saccing nation faster than it can domkill you?

If you wan't to win, you are always "forced" to come up with a strategy that beats your opponent! If certain scales is part of the strategy that beats Marverni, How is that different from other strategic considerations?
This sentence is a logical fallacy.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
frosted
*Spicy* Crew
I think wayward star (in a duel) is currently in that sweet spot. It is mildly game warping but because it costs a cap recruitment slot to abuse really early it offers counter play. It's powerful and requires the opponent to make serious decisions but is not impossible to beat. Wayward Star was somewhat op for Executor, but that was because he didn't know it was coming and couldn't take appropriate precautions. At this point we all know its a serious threat and can act accordingly.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Maerlande
Member Avatar
Dom 5 Beta Team
Let's make one thing fucking clear. Marv's national wayward star is a feature of CBM. CBM is a mod for multiplayer balance. I will lose my mind if CBM takes dueling balance into consideration of what is or is not in CBM.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it here. If someone wants to make a customized dueling mod that's all cool. But don't suggest changes to CBM based on the specifics of a duel. It's completely flawed.

Others have already stated why it's no big deal in the tournament.
FAQ
Dom4mods FAQ

My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos:
Pretender Design and Analysis
Maerlande's Videos

My Nickname Source
The Maerlande Chronicles
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
BlanketThief
*Spicy* Crew
Bit obvious, but Wayward star loses a lot of its power when capitals locations are unknown from the start; Would be a bit silly to make balance changes based off of that along with what Maerlande is saying.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
frosted
*Spicy* Crew
I think we've been over this somewhat exhaustively Maer.

Imbalanced or not though, one might question the design decisions regarding a non interactive method for shutting down a capital with zero research. It seems sort of designed for abuse on small maps.

Don't prophet the scout so you can find opponent cap earlier, lay down the first shot on turn 5 when you've discovered opponent capital, lay down the second on turn 7 pushing him to misf3. Throw down your second fort, shut down his capital on 12 as you all in. Opponent has no idea he's being prepped for all in and thinks he's just getting bad luck.

Other than this, I don't really see much utility for the spell at all. Correct me if I'm wrong. Again, I'm not saying its imbalanced - but I would question if it's a good design for FFA. I think it's fine for duels though, since both parties know whats up.

Is there actually any other meaningful use for the spell aside from anonymously prepping to collapse a neighbor on a small map in year one with no interaction?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Maerlande
Member Avatar
Dom 5 Beta Team
frosted,Sep 16 2012
07:00 PM
I think we've been over this somewhat exhaustively Maer.

Imbalanced or not though, one might question the design decisions regarding a non interactive method for shutting down a capital with zero research. It seems sort of designed for abuse on small maps.

Don't prophet the scout so you can find opponent cap earlier, lay down the first shot on turn 5 when you've discovered opponent capital, lay down the second on turn 7 pushing him to misf3. Throw down your second fort, shut down his capital on 12 as you all in. Opponent has no idea he's being prepped for all in and thinks he's just getting bad luck.

Other than this, I don't really see much utility for the spell at all. Correct me if I'm wrong. Again, I'm not saying its imbalanced - but I would question if it's a good design for FFA. I think it's fine for duels though, since both parties know whats up.

Is there actually any other meaningful use for the spell aside from anonymously prepping to collapse a neighbor on a small map in year one with no interaction?

You and I have been over it :) But there are new voices.
FAQ
Dom4mods FAQ

My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos:
Pretender Design and Analysis
Maerlande's Videos

My Nickname Source
The Maerlande Chronicles
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Fantomen
Member Avatar
Voice of *****
frosted,Sep 17 2012
01:00 AM
Is there actually any other meaningful use for the spell aside from anonymously prepping to collapse a neighbor on a small map in year one with no interaction?

Yes, there is.

There is the exact same use that all remote spells have that fuck up your opponents economy, which is exactly that, to fuck up your opponents economy and shut down castles. This is a central strategic asset in dominions, and can be use in a multitude of ways. You may for example want to rush a different magic path, but still have the option of economic warfare in midgame etc etc.

Besides, the "collapse a neighbor on a small map in year one" use IS a meaningful use (and why wouldn't it be valid to rush a neighbour this way on a large map?). Since when does a spell NEED to have several meaningful uses? There are lots of spells that are niche or go obselete after the early game, that's neither a balance problem or bad design in itself.

It's not "non interactive", you interact by patrolling, adjusting taxes, rushing for a dome you can cast, counter raid so Marv has to recruit mages for combat etc.

It's not "abuse" unless it's broken, as in unbeatable. And people has already proven that it isn't.
This sentence is a logical fallacy.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Maerlande
Member Avatar
Dom 5 Beta Team
So I assume you knew it was coming. Why didn't you redesign your pretender for this specific game? The fact that you, a new player, lost miserably to a very senior vet may have nothing to do with this spell.

You could have chosen a devastating awake SC, trashed your scales, and flown right to his capital to shut down the casting. Did you consider this option?

It's possible that it's OP in duels. But one game is not enough data. Especially a game so clearly mismatched in experience level and probably skill level.
FAQ
Dom4mods FAQ

My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos:
Pretender Design and Analysis
Maerlande's Videos

My Nickname Source
The Maerlande Chronicles
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Maerlande
Member Avatar
Dom 5 Beta Team
So, I disagreed with you in a very polite way and you respond like this? After you were so vocal about complaining when I was rude to you?

I could take this to imply that polite or rude doesn't matter.
FAQ
Dom4mods FAQ

My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos:
Pretender Design and Analysis
Maerlande's Videos

My Nickname Source
The Maerlande Chronicles
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Danayel
*Spicy* Crew
Given your experience what SC would you suggest Maer?

Given that to shut down his cap Yomi has to have an SC capable of beating his awake Green dragon SC, PD and any troops that he has built with his fully functional economy.

Yomi's only options for such an SC that can get to his Cap in time are another dragon or a manticore.

Maybe they could go with a walking SC like a Cyclops but then they likely won't make it before he has his second fort up, and they need to be careful they don't get killed or maimed along the way striding out on his own like that.

Seems like a lot of variables compared to "cast wayward, shut down enemy cap, expand with dragon, build fast second fort and a few hundred troops, win"

edit: You are right my reply was rude, I am sorry but I was just pissed off that I was yet again off offhandedly patronized and dismissed with "you are a noob so your opinion doesn't count"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
Learn More · Register Now
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Dueling Tournament · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Skin created by Nikku from Zathyus Networks Resources