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| All Eyes on Marverni; Executor vs GFSnl | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 13 2012, 07:02 AM (4,366 Views) | |
| Danayel | Sep 23 2012, 03:16 AM Post #61 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Just to fill in some back ground, the reason I didn't go with a completely custom pretender was that I asked BT for a test game against and to use Wayward on me so I could see how I held up. I managed to hold my own and we even pressing him on his side of the map when we did. We didn't finish, but it was still pretty close and I was confident I could do ok without designing a pretender and build specifically to counter one spell. However, BT was actually pretty generous and only used it every second turn or so. When it is cast every single turn though it is a completely and utterly different ball game. In the test game I could still keep unrest at a manageable level and the gold hit hurt but wasn't outrageous. I didn't just blunder in blindly, like your post seemed to insinuate, I tested my pretender and it seemed to survive, but I was indeed caught unawares by just how thoroughly debilitating a cast every turn is. Seriously though, when you have to plan your pretender, scales, army and game specifically to counter one single lvl 0 spell, regardless of anything else the opponent does, and if you do not plan for it you are almost definitely completely and utterly defeated, doesn't that sound like something is wrong? |
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| Maerlande | Sep 23 2012, 03:21 AM Post #62 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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Well, it's kind of hard to argue your against part of your point since you deleted your old post. But if I remember it correctly your post could be roughly summed up as "I lost to Marverni because he spammed Baleful Star. Therefore, Baleful star for Marveni is OP and should be removed." So if my summary if reasonably accurate I was pointing out the logical flaw. The fact that you lost to this strategy does not mean it's OP or broken. All it means is that you lost. If people who are forwarned and make specific plans to counter it can NOT counter it then it's OP and broken. And one game in which is appears you used a pretender design you tested heavily in SP was a failure is not sufficient data. I don't see anything patronizing about saying that the fact that you lost to a very experienced player on the top HoF list is not a measure of the power of this strategy. He had your number. And he's been honing it for a few weeks. I'm not saying your opinion doesn't count. I'm saying your conclusion is flawed. As far as what specific counter Yomi might use, I have never played Yomi. I was making a general point. In order to counter very powerful rush strategies you must design appropriately. One of the first steps is taking misfortune to minimize the effects of baleful star. A second is to prepare an expansion strategy that is not cap dependent. And the best for that is a very powerful awake SC. Or a quick research rush. There are other possible options.
Why not? All the rest of us are constantly refining a set of builds for each opponent. I have some designs for Marv, some for Mictlan, some for Van. Example: I know Raiel will probably turtle and blood sac so I need to press him very hard to ensure he has no time to get a blood economy rolling. I also know frosted will spam bows of lightning so I'm prepping LR resistant forces. |
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FAQ Dom4mods FAQ My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos: Pretender Design and Analysis Maerlande's Videos My Nickname Source The Maerlande Chronicles | |
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| Danayel | Sep 23 2012, 03:48 AM Post #63 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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My point was that it is too debilitating for a lvl 0 spell that can hit you on turn 3 and virtually shut down your economy. I challenge you to name another spell in the game that requires you custom design your pretender, scales, troop choices, build, expansion plan and economy specifically to counter it, and if you don't then you have lost. Seeing what your enemy does and responding to it is part of the game and yes I change my tactics around depending on the player too. But there is almost no margin of error with this spell. If you have not made the right choices, then its pretty much game over. edit: Note this is all in the context of the tourney. For longer games I won't enter into a balance debate. |
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| frosted | Sep 23 2012, 03:50 AM Post #64 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I actually agree with Maer for once here. His definition of op is correct, as for wayward being OP or not - the reality is that how GFSnl performs in this tourney will probably help determine it. If he beats all comers, then perhaps it is in fact truly OP. If he gets eliminated next round, probably not. Time will tell. Personally, I think that the spell is probably a poor design decision, regardless of its status as OP or not. On a map like fivelands or any map where you are likely to scout a capital by turn 4-5 it may actually be more brutal than in a duel - since your opponent won't be prepared in this case. I tend to look at it as a "wtf were you thinking at putting a remote income attack with misf2 at alt 0?!" moment, in other words an ability designed to promote degenerate play. I also openly admit that's a very subjective line. |
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| Maerlande | Sep 23 2012, 03:56 AM Post #65 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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Frosted: What's degenerate about it? Or more accurately, what is degenerate play? Danayel: Well I can't think of a spell, but triple bless F9W9S9 Mictlan eagle warriors is about on the same league. The user of that plan is guaranteed to lose in late game since scales are so horrific. But it's damn likely he'll kill everyone before it matters. The same balance concept applies here. The user of Baleful is sacrificing critically important cap only recruitment slots to cast that spell. That could ruin his late game. A shortage of druids is likely to cause a short game for Marverni. And while he's hitting one opponent with that spell, all the others are going to look at his research graph and go WTF? It's a classic design decision in Dom3 to chose early power, mid power or late power and to have to balance the costs and benefits of each. Dueling is strange that way since there is no late game and only sort of a mid game. Which brings us back full circle to this is dueling. Is it a measure of balance? PS: I remembered a comparable situation. The mod nation Hellgate gets these 200 gold heavy cavalry that fly and have fire breath like a zmey. They annihilate everyone early game. But in a multiplayer game the target simply asked for help from others and the poor Hellgate player was demolished. Choosing to buy those cavalry meant that he had no gold left for anything else and had no mid or late game. Once a fire nation could roll out fire resistance it was over. One dimensional strategies lose. They are nasty for the target, but overall they fail. |
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FAQ Dom4mods FAQ My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos: Pretender Design and Analysis Maerlande's Videos My Nickname Source The Maerlande Chronicles | |
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| Danayel | Sep 23 2012, 05:29 AM Post #66 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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But your examples are all for larger multiplayer games where the meta or the long game solves the issue. Remember this thread is specifically targeting the tourney, and I said it myself earlier that I won't even begin to discuss it in relation to larger games. But there is no meta penalties, and not long game (usually) in the duels. I think I worked out what it is that got me so worked up. I am not just carrying on because I lost. I have been playing computer games for at least 20 years and I have lost more times than I can count. Never before have I felt so worked up about something. What rankles about this is the complete feeling of helplessness that this spell generates. Because unless you have a (preferably flying) awake SC (and your opponent doesn't) then there is quite literally nothing you can do except try to mitigate the damage. Otherwise you cannot strike back at all, there is no chance for a lucky strike or a cunning trick to out maneuver them. The spell is cast safely out in the fow darkness and you suffer, the only variable being how much. I am pretty sure there are no other remote spells below level 3, and the only lvl 3 one I can find is fires from afar (I could be wrong here though so please confirm) and fires from afar hits (but not necessarily kills) 10+ units at a cost of 10gems and requires 3F to cast. Wayward however prevents you from building at least 10 units and gives -2 to misf but only costs 3 gems, 90 gold (the caster), and only needs S1. At least if my opponent rushes me or flies an SC over I feel like I have a chance, like I can utilize my skill or abilities to defeat him or hold him off. Plus they are taking a significant and (importantly) very visible risk, If he had flown over his dragon to duke it out and won I would have tilted my hat and accepted it gracefully. But there was none of that here. That is probably also why your comments pissed me off. We only had one battle in the whole match and I won it! So there was no real opportunity for GFSl to show his superior skill over me. He just cast one spell every turn from from the safety his castle and won. At least that is what it feels like, because I barely saw him all game. I have felt outmatched before, outclassed, inept, clumsy, and many other feelings, but until today I have never felt utterly helpless in a game before. edit: I am not discrediting GFSnl or his skill here btw, I am sure he had a good plan and was working furiously behind the scenes, but I never saw that. I just saw myself crippled with no way to retaliate and then a fort full of 10x as many soldiers as I had. GG edit2: In regards to balance for the game/duels I am not suggesting to remove the spell or nerf it from the whole game but perhaps ban it or adjust it during duels/tournaments via a house rule, such as making it Alt 3 - still better than Baleful (at alt 4) but you couldn't have both an SC and crippling magic anymore. Right now Wayward is a have your cake and eat it too situation - SC and crippling overland spell with no research. |
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| GFSnl | Sep 23 2012, 09:47 AM Post #67 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Actually I tested a lot against Yomi specifically for this duel. I think Yomi has a fair chance of winning 50/50. But... you need to take an Awake pretender that can take a province turn 1. That way you'll have 4 provinces when the first Star hits and 7 provinces by the second time. This has been enough provinces/income to fund further expansion. Yomi does have far superior troops to Marverni. |
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Give my Mods a try: MA: Myconos, Last of the Fungi MA: Red Wood, Burning Forest EA: Dystopia, Land of Luck | |
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| Maerlande | Sep 23 2012, 12:11 PM Post #68 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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I appreciate your sense of helplessness. In my first few test games for the duel I had that feeling against frosted. He'd roll out his Ri backed with indy commanders with thunderbows and I was totally fucked. His Ri would be on my cap by about turn 8 or so and that was just GG, cya later. SO, now that we have that out in the open it's a lot easier to discuss the issue. My response was pretty much exactly what I suggested. Build exactly counter to his strat. Our last game went far better. And I've been fine tuning my speed of roll out for the duels to ensure I'm not crippled by those sorts of early cap crushing attacks. Btw, I can roll out hurricanes on turn 4 with a great sage and philosophers with Arco on easy research. So this baleful is not unique. It's much easier, but the cost is higher. Hurricane costs me much less. This frustration is understandable. However, I don't like to make any kind of bannings or mods with data based on a player's testimony when feeling frustrated. My arch nemesis Ghoul31 once killed me with massed smite spam in year 1. Bizarre idea but it was unstoppable. I felt like you do and frankly I still carry that frustration when playing with him. However, it's not a measure of the power of smite. It's a measure of my inability to predict such an odd strategy and prep for it. |
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FAQ Dom4mods FAQ My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos: Pretender Design and Analysis Maerlande's Videos My Nickname Source The Maerlande Chronicles | |
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| Danayel | Sep 23 2012, 12:25 PM Post #69 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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You may want to rethink what you just said. Because what you effectively said is the presence of that one spell removes all chances of success for Yomi (and other nations too most likely) unless they specifically chose an awake SC and they have no choice but to do a successful double blind expansion. Even then if they do choose this, the only non-automatic-failure, strategy they have at best a 50% chance of victory. Marn on the other hand has available to them their complete range of pretenders, tactics and strategies - you could even choose not to use Wayward, or to use it every other turn etc. without penalty or above average risk of loss. But your opponent has only one possible tactical choice simply because you may choose to employ that spell. Any other choice is guaranteed failure. Removing that spell however would open up the complete range of options for opponents without disadvantaging Marn - who already had access to their complete range of tactics. The prosecution rests. Edit: the above was directed at GFSnl not Maer. For Maer - all of those tactics I could handle losing too as they require you to actually do something and make a commitment other than to simply take that nation. A lvl 0 remote spell is just "there" waiting to go from turn one irrespective of any other tactics you choose to do. e.g if you choose a sage to hurricane rush then you don't have SC protection, and a turn 4 cast is significantly different to a turn 2 cast as you could have 2 fully equipped expo parties out without having to blind expand or have an SC pretender. |
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| <span style=Calahan</span> | Sep 23 2012, 12:38 PM Post #70 |
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Here fleeing from the tyranny of Shrapnel dictators
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I've been trying to avoid commenting on this thread, which I'll still largely stick to, but just so that the problem is clearer in my own mind (and perhaps the mind of others as well)... Is the main issue here the unrest caused by the spell, or the scale tip to Misf3 and the extra events that unlocks? |
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Never try to help pig-headed douche bags. It's never worth the trouble, as some people are just too stupid and arrogant to listen Sombre is an egocentric asshole - Jarkko Calahan can spread shit with the best of them. | |
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| Maerlande | Sep 23 2012, 12:41 PM Post #71 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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So in short form, Danayel: 1) You would like to see wayward star banned in this duel tournament. 2) You also think wayward at research 0 is a flawed concept in CBM. About right? Now that we remove your frustration response? Very good point Calahan. Clarity on that issue would help. |
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FAQ Dom4mods FAQ My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos: Pretender Design and Analysis Maerlande's Videos My Nickname Source The Maerlande Chronicles | |
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| <span style=Calahan</span> | Sep 23 2012, 12:59 PM Post #72 |
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Here fleeing from the tyranny of Shrapnel dictators
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Just to be clearer on my request. Regardless of all the other aspects or Wayward Star regarding Marverni, such as it's cost, easy of access, opportunity cost etc etc. I wish (for now say) to ignore all them and just concentrate on what the effects are for the target nation. (since that's what I'm most curious to hear about) Wayward Star causes unrest and a 2 (or is it 3?) step scales shift towards Misf3. Nothing else AFAIK (it's just a carbon cppy of Baleful Star isn't it?). So which of those is the biggest problem? And I guess why? Or more precisely, why can't the target nation takes steps to neutralise the effect, or at least mitigate them? And why is the prospect of taking those steps so crippling/game destroying? |
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Never try to help pig-headed douche bags. It's never worth the trouble, as some people are just too stupid and arrogant to listen Sombre is an egocentric asshole - Jarkko Calahan can spread shit with the best of them. | |
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| Maerlande | Sep 23 2012, 01:01 PM Post #73 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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You have the effects summed up. The unrest is quite high: 30%. My solution so far is go misf 2 so that it's luck effect is minimal and buy cheap ass patrollers. |
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FAQ Dom4mods FAQ My Dominions 4 Guides and Videos: Pretender Design and Analysis Maerlande's Videos My Nickname Source The Maerlande Chronicles | |
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| <span style=Calahan</span> | Sep 23 2012, 01:10 PM Post #74 |
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Here fleeing from the tyranny of Shrapnel dictators
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Yes, my instincts tell me that would likely be my choice as well. Along with maybe some Growth scales and a check through the event DB to see what bad events I could negate by taking certain scales. For example... ... Heat 1 triggers a lab burning event, so I'd go at least Cold 1 to prevent this. Turmoil and Death (or lack of Growth) both trigger a number of poploss events, so again avoid these scales. If you tried I'm sure you could come up with an optimal set of scales to combat having Misfortune 3 at your cap. |
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Never try to help pig-headed douche bags. It's never worth the trouble, as some people are just too stupid and arrogant to listen Sombre is an egocentric asshole - Jarkko Calahan can spread shit with the best of them. | |
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| Danayel | Sep 23 2012, 01:22 PM Post #75 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Actually neither Maer. I agree with what others have said that we shouldn't change the rules mid tournament. Nor do I feel qualified to comment on it in larger games because they are situational and the meta can affect things a lot more as you illustrated. It is powerful, and could cripple one of your opponents in a big game, but does not force all your opponents into a single pretender and tactics choice. Nor is it a GG button, as even if it lets you hurt one opponent others can still grow safely and have a chance at taking you out. For future 1v1 tournaments however I feel it should be looked at. I don't know what the solution is, but I would argue that it is the single most powerful spell in the game under level 4 by a wide margin (if only by virtue of being one of the very few overland spells under lvl 4) - and especially so in a 1v1 duel on a small, fixed starts map Having a single spell that is available without any commitment from a player completely shut down every tactical option of their opponent except for successful SC + double blind expand does not make for a fun tournament. @Calahan - The main guaranteed issue is the unrest, which is bad enough by itself, but the shift to misf just opens up the possibility for a fatal event. Again, unlike larger games, if you get a single really bad event on your cap it can mark the end of the game with no real chance to recover due to the size and length of the games being smaller than the scale of the events. So the misf is just random nasty-icing, but the killer is the base unrest. The big issue I feel is really that the spell is a no brainer. Marn can take any scales, any pretender, any build and any tactics and change on the fly and still cast a shut-down the enemy's economy spell almost anytime they want. They can rush, research, turtle or any combination without having to sacrifice access to the spell. Yes the loss of the caster will limit their options slightly, but it only limits casting of the spell not the access. By GFSnl's own admission, the opponent however has no such options - SC double blind expand or lose Reducing access to it from lvl 0 may be enough. Or increasing the gem cost so it can't be cast every single turn without site searching. |
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