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All Eyes on Marverni; Executor vs GFSnl
Topic Started: Sep 13 2012, 07:02 AM (4,364 Views)
Executor
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I'm the captain now
Danayel,
I think a heavy resource nation would have a ton of trouble, but Yomi is perfectly designed to deal with Wayward star. You could have just recruited bakemonos the first turn and that would have been enough to neutralize the unrest effect.

I'd have taken a research pretender to rush skelies and evo in your place to take advantage of your enemies lack of research.
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GFSnl
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I have tested with Yomi and Marverni. And even in that short amount of time I concluded Yomi has a good game against Marv.
And maybe my play with Yomi can be improved over what I have tried.

And some other nations might have even better options. Maybe a pretender that reduces unrest or mittigates unlucky events.
In the first game Executor with Mictlan nearly beat me.
It's best if everyone tries to test different strategies and only then come to a conclusion.

What is known now is that the strategy you choose was not very good. But it is not a solid basis for the claims you make. Even though they might be true.
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<span style=Calahan</span>
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Here fleeing from the tyranny of Shrapnel dictators
Danayel,Sep 23 2012
01:22 PM
@Calahan - The main guaranteed issue is the unrest, which is bad enough by itself, but the shift to misf just opens up the possibility for a fatal event.

I've played in several games and been spammed early with multiple volumes of unrest causing spells. Rain of Toads, Baleful Star, Hurricane's etc etc, and patrolling is the go-to perfect solution for them all. So I'm honestly not seeing why the unrest is such a game ending problem for any nation unless it has problems with massing troops. (ie. It has no access to cheap, resource light troops)

Quote:
 
Again, unlike larger games, if you get a single really bad event on your cap it can mark the end of the game with no real chance to recover due to the size and length of the games being smaller than the scale of the events.

Such as? Please list what game ending bad events can trigger that can't be controlled by taking, or not taking, other scales.

Quote:
 
The big issue I feel is really that the spell is a no brainer. Marn can take any scales, any pretender, any build and any tactics and change on the fly and still cast a shut-down the enemy's economy spell almost anytime they want

They can rush, research, turtle or any combination without having to sacrifice access to the spell. Yes the loss of the caster will limit their options slightly, but it only limits casting of the spell not the access.

By GFSnl's own admission, the opponent however has no such options - SC double blind expand or lose

Reducing access to it from lvl 0 may be enough. Or increasing the gem cost so it can't be cast every single turn without site searching.

Not sure if any of that was a response to my question, but none of it is relevant (at this time).
Never try to help pig-headed douche bags. It's never worth the trouble, as some people are just too stupid and arrogant to listen

Sombre is an egocentric asshole - Jarkko

Calahan can spread shit with the best of them.
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Sombre
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Calahan,Sep 23 2012
01:42 PM
Danayel,Sep 23 2012
01:22 PM
@Calahan - The main guaranteed issue is the unrest, which is bad enough by itself, but the shift to misf just opens up the possibility for a fatal event.

I've played in several games and been spammed early with multiple volumes of unrest causing spells. Rain of Toads, Baleful Star, Hurricane's etc etc, and patrolling is the go-to perfect solution for them all. So I'm honestly not seeing why the unrest is such a game ending problem for any nation unless it has problems with massing troops. (ie. It has no access to cheap, resource light troops)

Quote:
 
Again, unlike larger games, if you get a single really bad event on your cap it can mark the end of the game with no real chance to recover due to the size and length of the games being smaller than the scale of the events.

Such as? Please list what game ending bad events can trigger that can't be controlled by taking, or not taking, other scales.

Quote:
 
The big issue I feel is really that the spell is a no brainer. Marn can take any scales, any pretender, any build and any tactics and change on the fly and still cast a shut-down the enemy's economy spell almost anytime they want

They can rush, research, turtle or any combination without having to sacrifice access to the spell. Yes the loss of the caster will limit their options slightly, but it only limits casting of the spell not the access.

By GFSnl's own admission, the opponent however has no such options - SC double blind expand or lose

Reducing access to it from lvl 0 may be enough. Or increasing the gem cost so it can't be cast every single turn without site searching.

Not sure if any of that was a response to my question, but none of it is relevant (at this time).

Patrolling troops on cap is a reasonably nasty disadvantage, even if you get enough to keep taxes at ~100

You get the poploss and the fact the troops have to sit there.

But this is nothing to do with the question of whether the spell is too good, just pointing out that the counter to it is not free.
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Lord Xia
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I appreciate this conversation, I think after reading this I will be in a better position if I do have to take on Marverni,
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Sombre
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Also I'm really glad this tourney happened. It's interesting.
I mod for free and fun. But if you want to tip me for work I've done, you can do so through PayPal to rabbitoflegend@gmail.com
General Mods: No PopType Recruitment (NI), No Mercs
Mod Nations: Warhammer Empire, Warhammer Lizardmen, Warhammer Skaven, Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms
Maps: Warhammer World
Older mods not yet ported: AI Recruitment, Ulm Reborn, Black Ulm, Jomon Broken, Avernum, Tharoon, Arga Dis, Daikaiju, Epic Magic Fail, Dromeda
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<span style=Calahan</span>
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Here fleeing from the tyranny of Shrapnel dictators
Sombre,Sep 23 2012
02:01 PM
Patrolling troops on cap is a reasonably nasty disadvantage, even if you get enough to keep taxes at ~100

You get the poploss and the fact the troops have to sit there.

But this is nothing to do with the question of whether the spell is too good, just pointing out that the counter to it is not free.

True it's not free, but it's usually less cost than the other side is paying in mage time and gem costs (unless it's Rain of Toads, as slaves are cheap and disease can be annoying)

And not sure needing to assign troops to patrol your cap is so bad. As I'd be surprised if overtaxing your cap isn't a good idea in duelling anyway, so it would likely already be part of the general plan (as some early patrolling + overtaxing is mostly always a good idea in regular MP to boost early income)
Never try to help pig-headed douche bags. It's never worth the trouble, as some people are just too stupid and arrogant to listen

Sombre is an egocentric asshole - Jarkko

Calahan can spread shit with the best of them.
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TheDemon
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That all you can think of to fend off wayward star is an awake SC rush is frankly pathetic and insulting to the discussion.


edit: I should clarify somewhat. Once this tactic became known I tested the worst-case (every turn / immortal pretender) and the likely-case (every turn / SC pretender) against a selection of counter-tactics for a selection of nations. Some nations are in fact lacking in counter-tactics, Abysia chief among those I tested. And yes, it was necessary to build to counter in every case (except, in my untested opinion, Caelum or Pan, neither of which I tested). But for no scenario did I find that there was only a singular build that allowed the target nation a fighting chance.

Now, you can argue that Wayward Star is duel metagame-warping, and whether that's problematic or not, but I think we definitely need to wait on the tournament end results to make the determination if the countertactics available are too narrow. I can set my testing aside as being a single data point subject to bias, but if I do so then I would argue that any one game result should also be set aside in the same manner.



On a personal note, I'm much more afraid of facing another blood saccer than wayward star marverni. The countertactics available for blood sac are much more difficult to deploy and much more subject to enemy action.
Calahan,May 27 2012
11:00 AM

"should only ever buff UP stuff to make it competitve with OP stuff" is a pretty bollocks idea on which to base a gameplay mod around.
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Maerlande
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Thanks TheDemon. Good summation.

Oh and I agree on the blood sac. I'm doing a test run versus Lourdes Hinnom and while he's allowing me to annihilate the world, it's touch and go if I'll live long enough for it to matter. You've got to really fucking push hard versus blood sac on these maps.
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lourdes
militarist
I agree that dompush is a very reliable tactic.

You can play defensively, which is a good advantage. And you can bloodsac (and probably it's even easier and simpler) wherever you want, for example close to your capital, as amount of provinces is so limited that earlier or later you start hitting enemy dominion

The best result's I've got from trying many builds is investing into dom 10. You don't even need to research something really - even Construction to equip thugs. Many thugs can live well without Shields (maybe it's because we play EA though), and there is a good choice of weapon , armor and misc on Constr 0.

The only cure which I see against domkill power on small maps is to use bigger maps, but to place capitals not on the opposite border of the map but somewhere not too far from each other, so you CAN try to conquire those provinces behind yuor capital but in this case have a risk of being rushed or meet some good midgame plan of your opposition without your control of what's going on there.

The more I play the less I loose units - first games I played much more agressively. And now - play from defence and saving army (doing dompush the same time). Attack only if I'm bored and it's not a tournament game or need to test something else.
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BlanketThief
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Sombre,Sep 23 2012
07:01 AM
Patrolling troops on cap is a reasonably nasty disadvantage, even if you get enough to keep taxes at ~100

You get the poploss and the fact the troops have to sit there.

But this is nothing to do with the question of whether the spell is too good, just pointing out that the counter to it is not free.

Poploss from the unrest is negligible; 30 unrest = 60 population lost to quell. That'd be a cumulative loss of about 210 unmodified gold if he casted it once a turn for 25 turns, which appears to be the average length of a duel game so far.

Just pointing out all the other effects of the spell have a far more meaningful impact (Cost of patrollers, income hit if you don't, mistfortune events causing additional hits, etc.)
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Danayel
*Spicy* Crew
I yield. :)
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