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Warhammer World Project; eurocentric warhammer
Topic Started: Oct 13 2012, 01:50 PM (8,272 Views)
Sombre
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So I've decided to embark on what promises to be a somewhat long and arduous map making project. I want to create a map of the warhammer world which is playable and relatively balanced as a dom3 MP map. This isn't an attempt to make a massive single player 'adventure' map.

I will create the graphic in the age of wonders shadow magic map editor. This world map graphic can then be chopped up into smaller maps which focus on just one part, such as the Old World, or Lustria, at different levels of zoom. But my intent is to first make a world map, quite a huge graphic, in the AoW editor, the zooming down can come after.

The AoWSM map editor is capable of creating some really quite beautiful stuff. But one major issue with using it for dom3 maps is that it is very zoomed in and uses an isometric view of sorts. So unless I make things pretty huge and then zoom out for dom3 purposes, it won't look right.

Another issue is that the warhammer world is based on our own, but the warhammer setting is very much focused on the Old World, the europe-like bit. Hence 'europe' contains loads of factions, but is only a small part of the world map. Rather than just making provinces in 'europe' very small and provinces in the rest of the world very large, I am going to do what the early european mapmakers did - I am going to downsize 'africa' and 'asia' and the new world, and upsize 'europe'.


Consequently the warhammer world map will go from being this:

Posted Image

To this:

Posted Image

Note I have removed Norsca and the southern chaos pole from the map. I don't think there's any point to norsca really - it may as well just be the coast of the northern chaos waste. I want the map to be an east west wrap only and no-one really thinks of chaos as coming from the south, so it will be an entirely northern power.

I will probably enlarge the Old World even more than I show above, in fact, making it by far the largest 'continent' so I can fit in stuff like skaven and vampire counts in that part of the map.


I think the first thing I need to do is establish the right 'scale'. That is where I need your help. I spent 20 mins arsing around in the editor and made a very rough looking Ulthuan shape. Ulthuan is the home of the High Elves in warhammer. I think each 'homeland' should have roughly 8 provinces so you can get pushed back to it and still be fine, but have a clear incentive to expand. So imagine that it had 8 provinces. Ulthuan is a bit of a weird shape, but the people live on either side of the mountains, basically, on strips of land. A bit like japan.

So here's my ulthuan, floating in black space. Start it with 2 players (there are only 2 provs). What I need you to tell me is simple - is the scale right? Would graphics like this make a reasonable dom3 map? Are the mountains too zoomed in or out? Until I get this 'zoom' right things are going to be tricky.

http://llamaserver.net/sombre/Dominions3/WarhammerMap/

Here's what it looked like in my dom3.

Posted Image
I mod for free and fun. But if you want to tip me for work I've done, you can do so through PayPal to rabbitoflegend@gmail.com
General Mods: No PopType Recruitment (NI), No Mercs
Mod Nations: Warhammer Empire, Warhammer Lizardmen, Warhammer Skaven, Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms
Maps: Warhammer World
Older mods not yet ported: AI Recruitment, Ulm Reborn, Black Ulm, Jomon Broken, Avernum, Tharoon, Arga Dis, Daikaiju, Epic Magic Fail, Dromeda
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llamabeast
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Awesome project.

Ulthuan looks like just the right scale to me.
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Sombre
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If you download the ulthuan example tga again, you will find it is quite different. I've tried to give a preview of what I've been doing with the Old World.

Again the question is about scale. Does it seem about right for a dom3 map? Does anything look especially out of place, scale/zoom wise?

My own view is it could probably do with being a bit more zoomed in. Mountains being a bit bigger relative to forts, that sort of thing. But only a slight tweak.

Do the trees look ok?

Are the regions fairly recognisable already, to those of you who are familiar with the warhammer old world?
I mod for free and fun. But if you want to tip me for work I've done, you can do so through PayPal to rabbitoflegend@gmail.com
General Mods: No PopType Recruitment (NI), No Mercs
Mod Nations: Warhammer Empire, Warhammer Lizardmen, Warhammer Skaven, Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms
Maps: Warhammer World
Older mods not yet ported: AI Recruitment, Ulm Reborn, Black Ulm, Jomon Broken, Avernum, Tharoon, Arga Dis, Daikaiju, Epic Magic Fail, Dromeda
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Deathjester
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I agree that you could do with a slightly more zoomed in view, ie bigger mountains and what not in relation to forts. (on the other hand, the trees are quite big, so..)

I think the graphics of AoW work pretty well for maps like this.

I guess this gives me another incentive to get High Elves sprited so that we can populate Ulthuan..
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
Malazan Empire
Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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Deathjester
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Oh - if you need any help with this - let me know and I will assist. Graphical or non graphical, just let me know. I like making maps and I like warhammer, and I like helping out!
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
Malazan Empire
Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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Sombre
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I would love help.

There are many things you could help with. Here are the steps, in the order they have to get done.

1) Editing maps in AoW2:SM map editor
For this you need the software. This is something I can arrange for you. You may already have a copy though, it's a great game. Basically what I have to do is make many AoW2 scenarious, each of which covers a chunk of the map. If I tried to do it all in one scenario the entire map would end up too small. For reference I've fit the Old World into one scenario

2) Screenshotting from the editor and stitching the shots into a graphic.
Ideally this would only be done once an entire scenario was finished, to avoid having to do it all over again, but it isn't the end of the world if certain bits are re-edited in the editor capped again and stitched back in. This is a mind numbing task. As an example the Old World scenario is like 10x10 screenshots or something. That's a lot of screenshots. Each time you need to crop the image and then carefully stitch it in. I would love a quicker method. If there were some software or a script that let you capture an area between two pixel points on the screen each time without having to do it manually, that would help.

3) Additional graphical editing.
This is optional and can't be done until the editor part of the process if well and truly over. Basically there are some things the AoW editor is bad at. One of these things is coasts, because it is hex based. It would be nice to smooth the coastlines out. This wouldn't be hard, but might be a bit time consuming.

4) Resizing the stitched together graphic.
Current thinking is 30% size. I think maybe slightly larger (more zoomed in) than that is ok. Perhaps 35-40%. This is obviously very easy.

5) Adding a layer of border lines.
I am undecided on the best way to do border graphics. I kinda like what Dawn of Dominions does though. I do know you want to do these BEFORE doing province dots. This requires a lot of patience, planning, consideration of game balance and potential nations. On the other hand it is very cool, because you get to consult all the smaller warhammer region maps to find provinces which actually exist. I think a good idea would be another graphical layer with province names typed in, since this is the point when they would be researched.

6) Adding province dots.
Having done the borders this is basically simple.

7) Connections.
I remember lch wrote a script to partially automate this, but it is still going to require a lot of patience.

8) Testing.
The most common problem with maps is messed up connections. Before actually adding all the terrain values, names etc, just walking a unit all over the map is a good idea to test the connections are right.

9) Terrain and names etc.
I don't want any randomly named provinces. Obvious nostarts are flagged.

10) First playtest.
Just an internal test, with some helpful irc people probably. Play a full game to check that the map works as intended. Minor balance feedback maybe.

11) Fixed start version, bugfixing, additional details like minor sites.

12) Release



So. The biggest and most taxing by far are 1, 5 and 9.

3 is optional. All the others are just required and have to happen.


I tend to see this as two projects. 1-2-3 gives us the graphic, from which many maps could be made (different sizes, different levels of zoom potentially).
I mod for free and fun. But if you want to tip me for work I've done, you can do so through PayPal to rabbitoflegend@gmail.com
General Mods: No PopType Recruitment (NI), No Mercs
Mod Nations: Warhammer Empire, Warhammer Lizardmen, Warhammer Skaven, Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms
Maps: Warhammer World
Older mods not yet ported: AI Recruitment, Ulm Reborn, Black Ulm, Jomon Broken, Avernum, Tharoon, Arga Dis, Daikaiju, Epic Magic Fail, Dromeda
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Deathjester
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Let's start off with number 1 then!

I've owned and played it for many hours before, but could not find it anywhere at home. It was just EUR9.99 at gog.com, so I bought the game. I might even play it again, and wether way it's a good game that deserves to be bought again.

So.. what to make then? What have you done so far and what is left?
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
Malazan Empire
Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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Sombre
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Cool!

The important thing is we need to make sure we're working to the same scale and with roughly the same style. I would actually like you to do Ulthuan, in fact. I chucked the version of it I did to start with (it only took a few mins anyway).

It should be about 30 hexes vertical from top to bottom in the editor.

I would say don't use anything which has questionable scale. Most trees are fine, but not things like willows. Don't put in any magic site type stuff because the majority of it simply looks too big.


I'll post up the file I'm working in a little bit. I am still trying to make Bretonnia and the empire a bit bigger to make room for stuff, shrinking estalia and tilea in the process. Ignore anything around the edges really, that we me just messing around and thinking about how araby and the norse lands would work.
I mod for free and fun. But if you want to tip me for work I've done, you can do so through PayPal to rabbitoflegend@gmail.com
General Mods: No PopType Recruitment (NI), No Mercs
Mod Nations: Warhammer Empire, Warhammer Lizardmen, Warhammer Skaven, Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms
Maps: Warhammer World
Older mods not yet ported: AI Recruitment, Ulm Reborn, Black Ulm, Jomon Broken, Avernum, Tharoon, Arga Dis, Daikaiju, Epic Magic Fail, Dromeda
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Sombre
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Here's what I have up to now.

http://llamaserver.net/sombre/Dominions3/W...orld%20base.ahm
I mod for free and fun. But if you want to tip me for work I've done, you can do so through PayPal to rabbitoflegend@gmail.com
General Mods: No PopType Recruitment (NI), No Mercs
Mod Nations: Warhammer Empire, Warhammer Lizardmen, Warhammer Skaven, Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms
Maps: Warhammer World
Older mods not yet ported: AI Recruitment, Ulm Reborn, Black Ulm, Jomon Broken, Avernum, Tharoon, Arga Dis, Daikaiju, Epic Magic Fail, Dromeda
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Deathjester
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Nice. I like your work so far. I will have a preview of Ulthuan up shortly.

Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
Malazan Empire
Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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Deathjester
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*Spicy* Crew
Here is Ulthuan, outline from the editor, with no terrain:

Posted Image

It's still a draft, and I will probably tweak some coastal lines, enlarge some parts..

It's roughly 30 x 30 hexes.
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
Malazan Empire
Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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Sombre
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Is that 30 to the top of the northern island? Including that could make it slightly larger, but the shape is great.

I think Ulthuan should have some room for the DEs to attack the west coast and maybe hold a couple provs, so I'm thinking perhaps 11 or 12 provs total for the whole thing, including the ceentral isle - altar of khaine isn't it? Not including water. Elves going to be able to rock out with some sailing across the central sea I think : ]
I mod for free and fun. But if you want to tip me for work I've done, you can do so through PayPal to rabbitoflegend@gmail.com
General Mods: No PopType Recruitment (NI), No Mercs
Mod Nations: Warhammer Empire, Warhammer Lizardmen, Warhammer Skaven, Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms
Maps: Warhammer World
Older mods not yet ported: AI Recruitment, Ulm Reborn, Black Ulm, Jomon Broken, Avernum, Tharoon, Arga Dis, Daikaiju, Epic Magic Fail, Dromeda
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Deathjester
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Sounds good.

Working from memory, it is about 31 hexes south to north without the "blighted isle" in the north. Should be around 33 hexes west to east, without the small islands. For provinces, these seem reasonable inclusions:

The Inner Kingdoms:

Avelorn,
Caledor,
Eataine,
Ellyrion,
Saphery,

The Outer Kingdoms:

Chrace,
Cothique,
Tiranoc,
The Shadowlands,
Yvresse,

..and maybe one more. Add the Blighted Isle and Gaen Vale (the larger of the central islands, where the Everqueen resides). The altar of Khaine is actually on the Blighted Isle. The Shrine of Asuryan is on an island in the south of the inner sea, just north of the strait:

Posted Image
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
Malazan Empire
Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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Sombre
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So in terms of terrain I guess there are going to be two forest provinces, maybe 3 (some maps have some forest on the west coast iirc) which would include Avelorn and Cothique. Border mountain and population and farm status is just a matter of tweaks, not really province placement,... but are there going to be any true mountain provinces? Caledor and Etaine maybe?

This sounds really good either way. I think it's worth making use of the raise terrain feature in the editor. I was tempted to make the entire world 'flat' but I think at least slight changes in terrain height actually look pretty good, because the grassland is a bit more varied due to the shading, without the need to add small details which scale badly (like meadows of flowers).

Exciting stuff!

For reference here is a version of the map DJ was trying to link to (I think).

Posted Image
I mod for free and fun. But if you want to tip me for work I've done, you can do so through PayPal to rabbitoflegend@gmail.com
General Mods: No PopType Recruitment (NI), No Mercs
Mod Nations: Warhammer Empire, Warhammer Lizardmen, Warhammer Skaven, Warhammer Chaos Dwarfs, Warhammer Ogre Kingdoms
Maps: Warhammer World
Older mods not yet ported: AI Recruitment, Ulm Reborn, Black Ulm, Jomon Broken, Avernum, Tharoon, Arga Dis, Daikaiju, Epic Magic Fail, Dromeda
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Deathjester
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A similar one, at least. I downloaded the picture and shared it via dropbox instead.
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
Malazan Empire
Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
LA Feminye
High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
High Elves
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