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The Thread of Many Questions
Topic Started: Sep 2 2013, 05:52 AM (51,375 Views)
entropius
Markata
Do Destruction and Armor of Achilles destroy shields as well, or just body armor?

Edit: Tested it. They break armor and shields.
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RodriguesCIA
Maenad
Which factions have non-capital-only sacreds? Any have sacreds that don't require forts (for example, you can recruit on specific terrain)?
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
RodriguesCIA,Dec 6 2014
12:49 PM
Which factions have non-capital-only sacreds? Any have sacreds that don't require forts (for example, you can recruit on specific terrain)?

Mictlan has non-cap only sacreds in every age;

Marignon in MA has Knights of the Chalice in every fort and flagellants in every land province with just a temple.

LA Gath has Levite Zealots in every fort.

EA Agartha has Olm mindblastrs available in the capital AND in every cave province.

(These are some quick examples, there are many more. DB inspector could help greatly)

EDIT http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?pa...=holy&unitval=1

Sort by type to show non-capital only units at the top.

EDIT 2 And this is just recruitables, there are sacred summons too.
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RodriguesCIA
Maenad
I am not really good at tinkering around with Mod Inspector, but I can find the summons easily enough. Thanks for the help.
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Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
TheRailGun was kind enough to show me the code that govern critical hit. So I guess I have to spread the wisdom here for more informations.

The manual say that it's DRN minus fatigue/15 and if it's less than 3 then it's a critical. It's not quite that however.

First, it's the DRN added to your prot who is checked. So, critical hit are alway on pretty bad DRN to begin with.

And then, it's not quite -1 per 15 fatigue. It's a penalty to the DRN of -1d6 if you're cursed, and -1 if you have at least 50 fatigue. It cannot get under 0. So it's a direct protection penalty in addition to a chance of crit, but it don't quite scale with fatigue

Lastly, crit happen more often if you're paralyzed or entangled. If you're prevented from moving and not an immobile creature to begin with, it's crit if DRN is under 5 ; else, it's crit if DRN is 2. Effect that put that penalty are Earth Grip, Entangle, Fascinate, Bonds of Fire, False Fetter, Web, Paralyze and Encase in Ice.

I might do an actual crit % table at some point.
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Red_Rob
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Dreamer of Dreams
This is pretty huge. So if this is correct then fatigue only affects critical hits if you go over 50, and then it's only a -1? That's a pretty major change from the manual, which lists fatigue as the primary factor. That would mean high encumbrance units like Living Pillars aren't the deathtraps they are made out to be, and SC's that pre-buff aren't in nearly as much danger.

Interesting about Curse and Immbolisation, that interaction isn't mentioned anywhere in the manual. Doom just became a better spell anyway, and I'm more inclined to use Storm of Thorns and False Fetters.

Given this is so different to the manual explanation, should this be reported as a bug?
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Admiral_Aorta
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Suddenly a troll appeared in the laboratory!
Red_Rob,Mar 22 2015
11:50 PM
This is pretty huge. So if this is correct then fatigue only affects critical hits if you go over 50, and then it's only a -1? That's a pretty major change from the manual, which lists fatigue as the primary factor. That would mean high encumbrance units like Living Pillars aren't the deathtraps they are made out to be, and SC's that pre-buff aren't in nearly as much danger.

this is an interesting observation because iirc when dom4 first came out a few people said that high encumbrance didn't seem nearly as crippling as before, but i don't think anyone did much testing or anything to confirm.
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Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
Admiral_Aorta,Mar 23 2015
09:28 AM
Red_Rob,Mar 22 2015
11:50 PM
This is pretty huge. So if this is correct then fatigue only affects critical hits if you go over 50, and then it's only a -1? That's a pretty major change from the manual, which lists fatigue as the primary factor. That would mean high encumbrance units like Living Pillars aren't the deathtraps they are made out to be, and SC's that pre-buff aren't in nearly as much danger.

this is an interesting observation because iirc when dom4 first came out a few people said that high encumbrance didn't seem nearly as crippling as before, but i don't think anyone did much testing or anything to confirm.

People did testing, but inconclusive, partly because nobody could log critical hit (since they are not tagged as critical in the log, just the protection is down).
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
I did this which is the % of crits assuming it works like described in the manual: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index....post&p=22102767
(note that my table doesn't match the example % given in the manual anyway)
Also, if the cursed flag really affects critical hits that's a HUGE thing!

This might be worth a bug report or two
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iRFNA
Troll
It's curse luck that decreases the prot DRN by d6 (open roll). Not curse.

Here's how it works out:

First it applies AP effects (AP weapon, AN weapon, piercing weapon) to the damaged unit's protection. AP and piercing are done separately, so they are multiplicative (40% when stacked).

A protection DRN (open roll, 2d6) is rolled.

If the unit has the "cursed luck" effect (on hit from horrors, maybe other things?), it has a 50% chance of taking -1d6 (open roll) to its protection DRN.

If the unit has fatigue >= 50, it has 1 subtracted from its protection DRN.

If the DRN is negative, it is set to 0.

Then a crit is decided in one of two ways:

If the unit is not immobile (not a fountain, etc) and it is immobilized (entangle, fatigue >= 100, etc) then it is a crit if the protection DRN is <= 4.

Otherwise, it is a crit if the protection DRN <= 2. Immobile units always compare their protection DRN vs 2, even if "immobilized".

When a crit occurs, the unit's current protection (after AP stuff above) is divided by 2 (rounded down, all divisions are btw).

Afterward, the protection DRN is added to that protection to get the protection used against damage.

Relevant code:

Code:
 
 v128 = opendice(6, 2);
 protdrn = v128;

 if ( hascurseluck > 0 && randnum(100) < 50 )  // curse luck is internal effect 255
   protdrn -= openroll(6);
 if ( *(__int16 *)((char *)fatigue + hitunitoffset3) >= 50 )
   --protdrn;
 posprotdrn = ((protdrn <= 0) - 1) & protdrn;  // set negative prot drn to 0
 if ( posprotdrn > 2 && (immobileunit(hitunitid2) || !immobilized(hitunitid2) || posprotdrn > 4) )// mobile unit has 1/36 chance to crit (protdrn <= 2)
                                               // immobilized unit has 1/6 chance to crit (protdrn <= 4)
                                               // this is ignoring the two protdrn alterations above
   protaftercrit = prot;
 else
   protaftercrit = prot / 2;
 isprotneg = posprotdrn + protaftercrit < 0;
 adjprot = posprotdrn + protaftercrit;
 prot = adjprot & (isprotneg - 1); //set negative prot to 0


And here's all of the things that qualify as immobilized:

Code:
 
bool __cdecl immobolized(int unitid)
{
 int v1; // eax@2
 int v3; // ecx@4
 int v4; // eax@7
 int v5; // eax@8

 return unitid >= 0                            // appears to be things that restrict movement
     && ((v1 = 28 * unitid, Fatigue[56 * unitid] >= 100)// fatigue >= 100
      || (v3 = someunitstatus[v1], v3 & 0x40)  // entangle
      || someunitstatus2[v1] & 0x10            // fascinate
      || v3 & 0x4000                           // earth grip
      || (v4 = someunitstatus[v1], v4 & 0x10000)// bonds of fire
      || (v5 = v3, v5 & 0x20000)               // false fetters
      || v3 & 0x20000000                       // web
      || geteffects(unitid, 186, 1) > 0        // paralyze
      || geteffects(unitid, 299, 1) > 0);      // encase in ice
}
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
...so basically for regular troops that are still mobile (no special effect, fatigue < 100) critical hit chance is 1/36 (fatigue below 50) or 3/36 (fatigue above 50 but below 100)?

Wow. Yeah, this is a huge thing. Complete rethinking of how useful high-enc troops are, I suppose.
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Red_Rob
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Dreamer of Dreams
Shame about Curse, I was more interested in using it when I thought it had an effect on combat.

The fact the crit check uses the already-rolled Prot DRN indicates why crits seem to be so devastating when they occur - they are already at the lowest possible DRN value before the Prot is halved. This shows why units relying only on Prot can sometimes just be one shotted. Also I don't think I had seen that high fatigue literally reduces your Prot DRN before. Combined with the stat penalties from fatigue that does still make encumbrance a worry.

The fact immobilisation increases crits suggests Earth Meld or Entangle could be effective counters to a high Prot sacred rush.
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Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
Quick tip on Lure :

* it depend on both moral and MR. Seemingly one moral check vs 12 and one MR check vs 12, but the low sample size mean it's mostly speculation.
* it can succeed on moral 30 stuff, just very rarely
* it only work on male
* if the commander can go underwater, there is a battle. The siren is in watershape.

Edit : a test on 200 commanders show that it's close to MR 16 check, and easier than 12 moral check.
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
So, on critical hits...shouldn't this be reported on Desura too? So either the manual or the game mechanics can be changed?
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iRFNA
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I'm a little reluctant to post it on desura since I don't know how the devs feel about disasm and using it to bring up a possible mistake on their part might make them visit the forums less than they already do.
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