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The Thread of Many Questions
Topic Started: Sep 2 2013, 05:52 AM (51,371 Views)
Itwastuesday
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*Spicy* Crew
Right, so I can still forge just with the added cost of dead mages. Thanks!
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alexsa2015sa
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Twiceborn Abodai
Was there any attempt to write a comprehensive guide on Transformation spell? And is there any research on Luck/Misfortune influence (if it matters at all)?

Since I've done some calculations(I've used Dom4Inspector to get values of attunement etc) and it seems UW Transformation... well, sucks, since it's half as cost-effective in regards to path increase chance, never mind getting more paths (only WSN underwater) or actually good chassis (Kraken King? Mighty pathetic). And those nations who can safely chain transform using healers don't seem to need it that badly to gain diversity (Arco only lacks Death and can make use of A3 Oreiad empowering... if they are really desperate to get Air gems, while Hinnom and Gath lack Air and Water), and pretty risky for majority of nations who can't cast GoH with their income - which equals painting big target on your back in MP on top of dispel possiblity.

One thing Transformation is theoretically good for is boosting beyond N4 - it's flat ~80 gems average per N level and ~2 levels in other paths. But it's very, very slow and very, very unreliable compared to classic empowerment+boosters... you only need N4S1 magic to get N7 spells, and it's definitely easier to empower mage from N3 - and possibly even N2 - if you don't already have bless Pretender. And you're wasting mage turns on a large rainbow mage and you never know when he gets feebleminded so he'll have to pass even more turns until he gets cured...

In short: is it really worth casting during serious MP game at all, since most transformations are awfully vulnerable (MR 5 Animals) on top of being non-humanoids? I don't think so.
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Red_Rob
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Dreamer of Dreams
Ohlmann did some testing here: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2372

I think with Transformation the following is pretty well accepted:

  • The main benefit is the new forms generally being upkeep-free. Path attunement and powerful forms are rare enough that you should see them as a bonus and not the purpose.
  • UW Transformation has a good chance of giving you an UW-only form, and is therefore seen as much worse than Transforming on land.
  • The feeblemind chance is high enough that you should only use mages you care about if you have Healers available.
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
I have posted a request in the Steam manual thread, asking for the mechanics on the water-land dominion barrier (introduced in 4.20) to be explained, but I'm not too hopeful it will happen (at least soon).

So does anyone here have any idea how it works?
My attempts at trying to guess with the debug long weren't too helpful, sadly - the info you get on dominion checks isn't very detailed.
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sum1won
Dom 5 Beta Team
Red_Rob,Jun 16 2016
11:07 PM
Ohlmann did some testing here: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2372

I think with Transformation the following is pretty well accepted:

  • The main benefit is the new forms generally being upkeep-free. Path attunement and powerful forms are rare enough that you should see them as a bonus and not the purpose.
  • UW Transformation has a good chance of giving you an UW-only form, and is therefore seen as much worse than Transforming on land.
  • The feeblemind chance is high enough that you should only use mages you care about if you have Healers available.

The main benefit I've gotten from transform has been mobility improvements. Transforming a mm1 or mm0 nature mage will usually get them 2+. I personally use it for this as much as upkeep, if not more.

Feebleminding depends on the type of creature, and did not appear to be curable in the games I played.

Also, I think luck scales helps with chance of feebleminding.
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fungalreason
Tartarian
sum1won,Jun 21 2016
12:04 PM
The main benefit I've gotten from transform has been mobility improvements.  Transforming a mm1 or mm0 nature mage will usually get them 2+.  I personally use it for this as much as upkeep, if not more.

Feebleminding depends on the type of creature, and did not appear to be curable in the games I played.

Also, I think luck scales helps with chance of feebleminding.

I had a game where I was mass transforming mages with MA Man under Gift of Health a few patches ago. I'm quite certain that several mages had feeblemind cured eventually.

I believe it's one of the afflictions that's classified as "hard to heal" (along with never healing wound) and some others most likely. That's probably what led to your observations.

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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
I suspect 'mute' is hard to heal, too. I had a recent game where, with Gif of Health in strong dominion it took MANY turns to heal.

Do remember that a mage is feebleminded, their globals go down. So transforming your Gift of Health caster isn't such a good idea.
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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
Trolling the logs recently, I've noticed that dragons will inexplicably (to me anyway) skip the bite attack but will take the breath attack, claw attack, and tail sweep.

Anyone notice this before and/or know why this is so?
As an aside, I've notice that breath attack does not use the innate resistance of the dragon, in the occassion that the dragon blasts itself, it seems that friendly fire is simply cancelled.

Finally, have others observed that with the large number of misfortune events that it is more likely you wish to choose an extrem luck scale (-2/+3)?
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Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
Dragons use their resistances for their friendly fire, but resist their own element a lot.

Dragons skip the bite if they breath, normally. I did not super double check that it alway work correctly.
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Itwastuesday
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*Spicy* Crew
Is the eater of the dead pointless?

Can Anthrax stack fireshield on top of his banefire shield?
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
I'm saying the oppositeohlman.
If you look at the log, it does not use resistance. It says something like dragon ignores friendly fire and cancels the damage.
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Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
Itwastuesday,Jun 29 2016
05:31 PM
Is the eater of the dead pointless?

Can Anthrax stack fireshield on top of his banefire shield?

The eater of dead is pointless.

Dunno for Anthrax.

Quote:
 
I'm saying the oppositeohlman.
If you look at the log, it does not use resistance.  It says something like dragon ignores friendly fire and cancels the damage.


But if you look at their resistance, they are immune because of them already.
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TheSHEEEP
Tartarian
How large is actually a battlefield? All those range properties of spells still mean pretty little to me. I know that < 10 is kinda short and 20+ is kinda long.

I tested around a bit, but I am kinda confused.
For example to try and kill an SC, I noticed that even if I park my scripted mages at the front and start spamming whatever spell (Frozen Heart, Disintigrate, Bone Melter, etc.) they just won't reach the SC, which is parked at the far back for at least 5 scripted turns.
So once the scripted phase ends, the SC might start moving forward, but the mages start going off-script doing whatever kind of nonsense. And they are easy pickings for the other army because I put them at the front line to get some range.

So... follow-up question:
How to actually deal with SCs - without access to S magic?
I've read the guides, of course, but due to the limited range of most 1-hit-kill-spells, I don't see many options.
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Itwastuesday
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I think it's 100 squares.

Depends on what you have and what the SC is. Anything that doesn't regenerate just dies randomly.
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Red_Rob
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Dreamer of Dreams
TheSHEEEP,Jul 9 2016
01:37 PM
How large is actually a battlefield? All those range properties of spells still mean pretty little to me. I know that < 10 is kinda short and 20+ is kinda long.

There's some discussion here with numbers and positions of the starting areas and such: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index....wtopic=866&st=0


Quote:
 
So... follow-up question:
How to actually deal with SCs - without access to S magic?
I've read the guides, of course, but due to the limited range of most 1-hit-kill-spells, I don't see many options.

The thing with a SC is they either come alone, in which case you can focus everything on the SC, or they come with some chaff/an army in which case they will likely rout due to army hp loss if you kill their friends. Against an army just go with whatever kills the army the quickest.

Against a lone SC hiding at the back of the battlefield you can tell your mages to Attack a few times before casting spells so they are in range. Hopefully they will catch it during the buff cycle and the Life for a Life or Frozen Heart will hit them before they attack. Fliers set to immediately attack can also interrupt the SC and prevent it from casting key buffs. What you actually want to cast depends on the SC and it's weaknesses. Generally it is hard to reliably protect a unit against all of the following:

  • Lots of high damage melee attacks ala Barbarians (Needs very high Prot/awe/ethereal etc)
  • AN Lightning attacks like Lightning bolt (Needs Lightning Res)
  • AN Cold attacks like Frozen Heart (Needs Cold Res)
  • AP Fire attacks like Pillar of Fire (Needs high prot / Fire Res)
  • AN Poison attacks like Breath of the Dragon (Needs Poison Res / Regen)
  • MR negates spells like Soul Slay (Needs MR 25+)
  • Renewable chaff like Skelespam (Needs to reliably kill a square of troops per turn)
  • Repeated attacks doing small damage like hordes of chaff (Needs very high hp / regen)
  • Fatigue buildup (needs reinvig to remain fatigue-neutral)
The thing to do is to identify which things the SC is weakest against and try to deploy as much of those as possible. Classic SC killers are hings like Stellar Cascades, Paralyze, Frozen Heart& Gifts from Heaven.
The Dom 5 Mod Catalog - Every mod for Dom5 with pictures!
Dom5 Modding Starter Pack Everything you need to start modding

My Mods:
Dominions: Enhanced! A compilation mod including Magic Enhanced, Pretenders Enhanced, Sites Enhanced, Fantastic Mercenaries, Better Arena, Worthy Heroes, EA Fennoscandia, EA Juhera, MA Iram, MA Shambhala, LA Iram and LA Rotterland

Magic Enhanced v2 Over 900 new spells + items, National spells for every nation, plus nation and spell tweaks
Pretenders Enhanced! Reworks Pretenders to make more viable options, plus adds over 100 new Pretenders
Extra Pretenders Over 100 new Pretenders
EA Fennoscandia A nation based on Sami and Finnish folklore
Fantastic Mercenaries Adds 57 new mercenary bands including Vanir, Abysians and more
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