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Fatigue in dom4
Topic Started: Sep 14 2013, 11:06 PM (6,752 Views)
Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
Hello.

On another thread Scaramuccia have advanced the idea that fatigue work differently in dom4. I kind of completely disagree, but it's not like there is certainty on the topic. So it may be good to gather either empirical evidences, hypothesis, and data.

Scaramuccia have said that enc8-10 units in his test does not really get killed as easily as in dom3 (for example 15 Living pillar vs 120 soulless and surviving). I have not seen the same thing for now (8 Living pillar vs 45 tritons, 8 dead pillar and 20 dead tritons).

I have seen the hypothesis that the attack and defence malus have been removed or lessened. The battle log display the value of attack + malus + dice result, so we can search the value are abnormality low as clue that there is still a fatigue malus.

I have done two battle, one with 8 living pillar, another with 20 black infantry with hammer. Both have high encumbrance.

For the attack, I have seen value of 8 for Black Plate Infantry (with hammer) and 9 for Living pillar. I have checked for afflictions and fatigue (around 30-40 in both case), and thoses value are compatible with fatigue malus being the same as or worse than in dom3

For the defence, it's muddier, because I have no real way to check the number of attack on a single unit. I have tried to follow the animation, and found value of 10 for black infantry and 0 for living pillar. Given the fact that the number of attack is fuzzy, the ulm test is compatible with fatigue malus being changed or not, while the living pillar seem to show a defence penalty but is not conclusive.

TL;DR : no real data for now on whether the fatigue have the same effect as in dom3 or not.
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knightofni
*Spicy* Crew
In the "tips of the turn", I've recently read "fatigued units are easier to hit" (or stg similar). If i remember correctly, in dom3, fatigue would only increase critical hit chance.

If that tip is accurate, that would explain why fatigue feels different.
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Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
knightofni,Sep 23 2013
02:04 AM
In the "tips of the turn", I've recently read "fatigued units are easier to hit" (or stg similar). If i remember correctly, in dom3, fatigue would only increase critical hit chance.

If that tip is accurate, that would explain why fatigue feels different.

In dom3 you get -1 def per 10 fatigue and -1 attack per 20 fatigue according to the manual. I think it's the same in dom4 but nothing is really sure.
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knightofni
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Hmm, i never knew that. Well, at least i learned something.
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llamabeast
*Spicy* Crew
The critical hit mechanics have indeed changed.
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llamabeast
*Spicy* Crew
From Johan:

Quote:
 
Critical hit due to fatigue: Occurs if DRN - fatigue/15 is less than 3.
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Morsigil
*Spicy* Crew
llamabeast,Sep 23 2013
04:49 PM
From Johan:

Quote:
 
Critical hit due to fatigue: Occurs if DRN - fatigue/15 is less than 3.

Gah. Really?

So if my imperial footmen gain 15 fatigue and roll a 3 or less on a 1d6 then they get hit with a crit?
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Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
Morsigil,Sep 23 2013
08:08 PM
llamabeast,Sep 23 2013
04:49 PM
From Johan:

Quote:
 
Critical hit due to fatigue: Occurs if DRN - fatigue/15 is less than 3.

Gah. Really?

So if my imperial footmen gain 15 fatigue and roll a 3 or less on a 1d6 then they get hit with a crit?

drn is 2d6. So they would have 1/36 chance at a crit without fatigue, 1/12 at fatigue 15, and more than 50% at fatigue 90 (less than 9 on 2d6)

It make the crit happen a bit faster than before, because the first 15 point of fatigue add 2/36 odds at crit instead of 1/36. If anything, it make enc9-10 unit even worse than before.
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parone
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hello curse of stones...
All that matters is that two stood against many-that's what's important...
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Edi
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Something to note: DRN and drn in Dominions parlance are different things. I forget exactly, but DRN is what you use 95% of the time and drn is only for special cases. The correct usage is case sensitive. Bruce mentions that in the new manual (not sure if also in Dom3 manual).
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cleveland
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IIRC, Dom3 critical hits were always applied to the head, and therefore against half of the head protection. So without a decent helmet (like, the ones that add encumbrance), units with high fatigue keeled over pretty rapidly.

With Dom4's new "hit location" mechanics, I don't think this applies anymore - criticals just halve the protection at the point of impact.

If the above is true, it could explain the apparent improved durability of Dom4 high enc units.
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
Thread necromancy!
But I thought it was interesting enough to be worth it.
Using http://anydice.com/, I tried calculating the chance of critical hits at each level and the 'effective average prot' of the unit.
What I got was...

Code:
 

fatigue  crit chance   avg prot

0           2.78%      98.61%
15         8.33%      95.85%
30         16.67%    91.67%
45         27.78%    86.11%
60         41.67%    79.17%
75         53.70%    73.15%
90         63.89%    68.06%  
105       72.22%    63.89%


Where avg prot = protection of the unit after accounting the chance of critical hit reducing it by 50%.


Some related things:

1)Does NOT match the manual on page 88 where it says "a unit that has a fatigue of 60 will suffer a critical hit about one of every four times it takes a hit. "
Of course my calculations could just be wrong.
2)Fatigued units of course suffer many more hits because of the fatigue/10 defense penalty.
And there's a fatigue/20 penalty to the 'avoid being hit at range' roll too. Which compounds the critical hit %.
If we want to go even deeper - the attack penalty likely applies to repelling, so that can situationally make a fatigued unit be hit even more often. Ouch
3)Don't know how the game rounds the fatigue / 15. So I don't know if units with fatigue 100 count as 90 or 105.
4)A quick test with mindblasters + a dragon dragon (at fatigue 0 and base prot 18) suggest that paralysis does NOT mean all hits are automatically critically. Thought there was a chance it worked like that (made sense to me).
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phyvo
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Tartarian
One reason why it doesn't match is because the dice in DRNs and drns are open ended. That is, whenever a 6 is rolled you count that 6 like normal but then you also reroll that die as a bonus die that gets added to the total. The bonus die in turn can roll a 6 and get rerolled ad infinitum and make a crazy huge total so long as it keeps on rolling 6. This is explained in the Dom 4 manual.

My math is rusty enough that I don't know how to calculate the odds or expected values for open ended rolls but I ran a simulation in python and difference is significant. A normal 1d6 has an EV of 3.5, a dominions open ended 1d6 has an EV of about 4.3. That's a pretty huge difference and must be the cause of the discrepancy.
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
That was already accounted for. I used this AnyDice code:

Code:
 

function: explode N:n
{
if N >= 6 { result: N-1 + [explode d6] }
result: N
}

set "maximum function depth" to 10

output 2d [explode d6]


Which SHOULD reproduce how Dominions dice rolls work - if a 6 is rolled, subtract 1 from that result and then roll another d6, exploding again appropriate. So I don't think the discrepancy is due to that.
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
Bump because I have been thinking about that table I made again and I'd like to know if someone has tried to make tests that match if it's roughly correct.

It FEELS right to me, but it does not match the manual at 60, again. Since 60/15 = 4, it can't be a rounding issue.
Of course the manual could just be wrong.
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