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| LA Pythium???; Da fuq do I do with these guys? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 2 2014, 07:53 AM (13,208 Views) | |
| Trumanator | Aug 23 2014, 03:28 AM Post #16 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Expansion isn't really the issue, Pythium actually has pretty damn good troops. Its the research/mage strategy that I'm stumped on. TBH I don't see the hydras showing up much at all unless something ridiculous like an elephant rush or early SC makes an appearance. |
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| Korwin | Aug 24 2014, 03:20 PM Post #17 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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For an Moment I thougth I was in the Dom3 subforum... |
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| Soyweiser | Aug 25 2014, 12:01 AM Post #18 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Sorry, I make mistakes, I have not played much of dom 4. So like I said, theorycrafting. And I know little of some changes. (like high N giving no berserk apparently). Edit: Like always. Please. Correct me where I'm wrong. I will probably disagree and later silently change my views to match yours
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[Maerlande] Because it was a smart idea. Soyweiser was right. The irc channel: #Dominions on irc.gamesurge.net | |
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| TheDemon | Aug 25 2014, 03:48 AM Post #19 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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It's nation vs nation troops (and Hydras are a legit toolkit option there) where Pythium troops fall a bit flat, and especially using mages in battle. The Cap-Only Theurg can 66% communion to T-strike or Falling Frost, and S2 are far from useless, but then you have 25% communion potential on the Renatus and Renata, 25% D2 on the Renatus which isn't quite usable for spam but can get you some death goodies, and the nonfort are 55% F2 for Falling Fires and other fire battlemagic, and the rest are basically useless. Serpent Priests are much more of a lab mage and battlefield enchant mage than anything, not that they're bad, but nature battlemagic doesn't hit as heavy beyond buffs and BEs. The mage lineup wouldn't stink quite so much if it had a consistent communion slave to enable to the Theurg, or if the Theurg wasn't cap-only, but as both slave and master the Theurg isn't available in great enough numbers. I mean, you can definitely make F2 work or make the Theurg work or go for Ench relief / regen / rigor mortis / foul vapors etc., but no matter which route you take it's hard and the troops you're enabling aren't tailor-made to take advantage of the buffs you can give them, like, say, Midgard's are. e: That said, maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the right way is to look at the nation lineup as a LA-Ulm light, and go for a research machine if possible. I dunno. |
Download DE 0.13 here, released May 13, 2012 | |
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| Ohlmann | Aug 25 2014, 09:00 AM Post #20 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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Don't the out of fort mage have really bad research ? |
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| Johannes | Aug 25 2014, 09:53 AM Post #21 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Not really, the out of fort recruitment easily makes up for the research malus gold-wise. Hereticness is a potential issue, though. |
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| amuys | Aug 31 2014, 05:20 AM Post #22 |
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Diviner of Football
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LA Pythium is bad at everything except for roleplaying a very bizarre version of Abysia with their Priests of the Solar Bull and Solaire troops. |
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| Passive_Jelly | Dec 7 2014, 12:21 AM Post #23 |
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Tartarian
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I'm surprised everyone is so quick to dismiss the heretic mages. Choose early where you want to throw up a lab and have all the heretics in a few places. Just accept there is going to be a province or two where you have no dominion (and nobody else will either). Leave mages that didn't get the randoms you want in the wild. They're all cheap and don't take fort turns, remember that. Leo: cheap and merely heretic 1, he mostly serves as a good morale-boosting commander that doesn't take a fort turn. With a fire gem he can cast Phoenix power for emergencies. Heliodromus: 50% for F2 off the bat? All the juicy fire evocs and searches fire sites for 90 gold. Mystes: 40g for research 5. Not amazing, but consider the cost-effectiveness. Not a heretic either. Epoptes: 100 gold, StR and heretic? A niche choice for sure. You'll be happy you had her when an important unit catches disease. Among the VERY few easy ways to get disease healer. Reveler: Seems useless, actually the only native unit to use a spell of Pythiums: Orgy. While his odds of getting the random is low, eventually, he will get it. Orgy summons, using no commander slots anywhere, a satyr commander that seduces (meaning an assassin, too) and summons maenads as allies. On yeah, he berserks too, meaning he won't wuss out of assassinations. Orgy costs 1 blood slave. |
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| suppenit | Jan 9 2016, 02:25 PM Post #24 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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so far N9E9 hydras make a great job in expanding in tests. Single Hydra takes medium independent province and two or three take heavy cavalry one. Of course they are countered in middle game. So what? Everything gets countered eventually. It is extremely strong option for Pythium even with mildly bad scales: in middle game it is expected to have hordes of researcher and backup mages instead of hydras. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| Ohlmann | Jan 9 2016, 02:49 PM Post #25 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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I do laugh at the people who say "hydra are fine for expansion". I have seen them dying to as low as 30 militias, and it's actually very easy to know why once you know that they have to make a moral check every turn if you have less than 5 of them, and if they start to rout they tend to die due to how slow they are. Hydras are so bad that even with a dual bless you'd better off with the roman legion. But they are cool, so every so often some people try them, attribute to bad luck all the time they are horrible and try "but they are a strong asset !". No. Not at the age of crossbow. Not when you need a squad of 5 things to avoid rout check, which mean the minimum size of hydra expansion is 390g + the commander. Not when they have the worse HP per gold of the game despite sporting less-than-light infantry level of armor. |
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| suppenit | Jan 9 2016, 03:06 PM Post #26 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I trust your experience. I trust you also could see Gorgon dying to 30 militia. Awake SC titan dying to 30 milita. 10 C'tissian sauromancers scripting to attack dying to militia. Dozens of roman evocers scripted in the same manner dying too. World of dominions is huge, there are thousands of combinations allowing horrible degrees of inefficiency in hands of suicidal player style. Possibly you saw people doing it wrong way and learned it as the best possible use. I personally prefer to learn from other people who know how to use tools available and do not brag with ignorance - it is not creditable quality anyway. All you need to prove hydra rush rocks is to start a new test game and attack any province with a couple of blessed properly hydras - not so hard to do, erm? |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| Ohlmann | Jan 9 2016, 04:14 PM Post #27 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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You miss the point. You can not do any error and have your hydra die horribly, because she took damage just before melee, then flee because of the moral check, then die because she is routing but is slower than just about anything. And since an hydra is extremely fragile, it tend to die to random flukes too. There is also the problem of the commander. It's supposedly a priest, so either you put 50g of legionary to guard it, or he will die every other province. I don't brag about ignorance, unlike you. I have tried that, and seen it's ridiculously bad. I do doubt openly you really tried and have good results, because people like you happen every so often, and each time it was an achievement of ignorance from their part. BTW, I did not immediatly, but the accomplishment you say are about as bad as it can get. 250g of about anything take most indie province. 500 or 750g take mostly anything ; 750g is regulary enough for lvl 2 thrones. |
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| suppenit | Jan 9 2016, 04:39 PM Post #28 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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If you did it and failed, then you did it wrong way. Maybe took wrong bless or no bless at all, maybe failed to chose proper province, maybe positioned wrong commander in wrong place. Hydra morale is good enough to tank medium provinces without routing. Unlucky morale roll can happen and hydra will run away. Nothing wrong with it - commander tends to stay behind Hydra, so he retreats in safety. Retreating hydra kills pursuing enemies en masse thanks to poison cloud. And while retreating hydra takes much less hits and usually survives too. It ends in 'all heavy cavalry died, hydra and commander are ready for second attempt' result. But it is unlikely situation - usually hydra kills everyone. Pythium has decent poison-immune high-protection battle deacon priests - would you play this nation and tried bless expansion you would know it. Well, if you tried and failed and other people tried the same and succeeded, there is something for you to learn, correct? But you refuse to do so and stay on your failure as inherent property of the game - while accusing more competent players (in this particular nation) in lying. It's what I named 'bragging ignorance'. As for '250 gold of anything takes province' statement, you are missing two significant points. First, hydra takes province without any casualties - it isn't case with "about anything". Second, hydra costs 1 resource and new expansion party comes out of the gates every turn - and frequency of expansion party creation separates perfect early game from weak early game. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| Ally | Jan 9 2016, 04:42 PM Post #29 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I expand with E9 Hydras. 1-2 big hydras paired with 4-5 small ones led by a deacon. I wouldn't say they are excellent at it but they can do the job somewhat reliably if you pick your targets right. Even then fuckups happen. A small consolation is in the fact that whatever beats the hydras usually dies of poison during the pursuit phase and the big hydras sometimes escape. You are much better off expanding with the equal gold cost of legionaries. Why do I use them then? You can build them alongside your regular res costing legionaries to stimulate your cap expansion. They have niche use in the early to mid game as a powerful weapon against non poison immune troops. I expand with them in order to mass enough of them to later be able to rush an opponent with them. Either that or I make specialized skelespam armies to synergize with their auras. |
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| suppenit | Jan 9 2016, 04:50 PM Post #30 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I tried N9B9, pure N9, pure B9, absence of blesses. Hydra strategy really needs both high Earth and Nature blesses to be competitive tool - one hydra per province per turn expansion really shines in early game and it worth some scales messed. As someone said it is similar to Mictlan blessed warriors - hydras are competitive in proper time and proper place, but in middle game player has to find other tools to deal with opponents. The big choice is full sloth and reliance on Hydras and later mages support them - or full production and dependence on legionarries. I prefer first, but recognize second choice as valid one as well. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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