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| LA Pythium???; Da fuq do I do with these guys? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 2 2014, 07:53 AM (13,207 Views) | |
| Ally | Jan 9 2016, 04:52 PM Post #31 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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E9 bless full production works well for me. I would never truly consider sloth as viable for Pythium. Your legions are just about the only half-decent thing about the nation and they can be recruited outside of forts. If I were dead set on an expensive dual bless I'd try E9W9. I don't see the massive benefit of N9, you already have regen. |
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| suppenit | Jan 9 2016, 05:27 PM Post #32 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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This additional benefit separates expansion using one big hydra from expansion using one or two big hydras and three-fine small ones. I.e. speeds up expansion up to twice as fast. As with many decent units, additional enhance of primary value (survivability) for hydras has exponential value. If we later add Body Ethereal for such hydra they become unkillable by anything but highly specialized setup of opponent (Soul Slay communion etc). Exactly because legions can be recruited out of forts they can be built without production, though with more micromanagement and in slower pace. The problem with legions is they have bad synergy with hydras - and 240 design points from full production to full sloth build cover extra bless (that costs 288 points from N1) cost for 83%. Fire proof legions can be used too. For instance vs C'tis or Patala or Lemuria probably massed evokers behind fireproof infrantry are better than hydras. So this choice depends on opponent. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| Ally | Jan 9 2016, 05:47 PM Post #33 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Sorry I'm gonna disagree on this entirely. A single hydra is forced to take a morale check every turn or it runs. Not advisable to use them like that. You are taking a massive hit in design points to be able to do something so risky. For the extra scales I can get for the cost of N9 I can make enough gold to buy 4 small hydras for escort. Body Ethereal is a lot of research and very difficult to apply to any larger number of hydras. You basically need your S random cap mages to do it. It is also less useful than you think. It only shields hydras from mundane weapons. Any kind of evocs will still ruin them. |
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| suppenit | Jan 9 2016, 06:14 PM Post #34 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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First, experience with this build states rout doesn't happen usually, it is mostly theorycrafting fear. In rare case hydra fails morale check it survives to fight another day while half of province defenders die to poison. Second, selection of production is massive hit in design points itself. It is 240 points while N9 bless costs 288 points - there is one scale difference. Third, Body Ethereal is Alteration 4. Why is it "a lot of research"? Especially for Pythium, focused on cheap mage researcher production. Body Ethereal spell indeed is hard to be applied to large amount of hydras. It is better to apply it to hydras who stand in front - or use moderate amount of hydras and support them with Swarms and/or vine man/ogres instead of trying to Body Ethereal all hydras. Hydra has 80+ hps and enjoys 16 regeneration - add more regeneration by Serpent Priest to laugh on enemies with 24 regeneration. This hydra should be repeatedly and consistently hit by evocations to be killed. And critical mass of evocations can be worked around by using more hydras. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| Ally | Jan 9 2016, 06:28 PM Post #35 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Apart from providing res production scales also increase income so it's not really a hit on design point but rather a direct translation of design point into your nations strength. More gold is needed in all situation. 8 extra regen on hydras is not. To me the biggest problem with Hydras is them being cap only and map move 1. Investing too much design into them is bad because you won't be able to use them in most of your battles since they will be out of position for most of the game. |
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| suppenit | Jan 9 2016, 06:47 PM Post #36 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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And apart from bless bonuses 9N provides regeneration item for 5 astral gems (Shrouds of Saints) for cheap thugs and high-scale Nature mage. It can be claimed 'direct transition into national strength' as well. Ironically, Pythium isn't as gold-hungry as other nations. It doesn't need many forts with majority of mages being cap-only or wilderness-only. It doesn't need many temples with tons of heretics to fight enemy dominion. It's researcher mages are cheap. Soldiers production is usually limited by resources and not money. Yep, hydras have slow movement, so one should position them carefully strategically. However plain soldiers en masse have the same slow movement - does it mean that "in most of battles they will be out of position for most of the game"? I doubt. Soldiers can be spread throughout whole empire - and hydras can be spread the same way. So far I've tested early game strategies only. Have to develop middle game and late game strategies, ideally win MP game and then come back to this discussion. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| LDiCesare | Jan 10 2016, 01:11 AM Post #37 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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LA Pythium has map pmove 3 infantry, and map move 3 commanders. Saying that "plain soldiers en masse have the same slow movement" is ridiculous. This does not apply to Pythium, and it's one of LA Pythium's strengths. Sure, comitatenses are expensive, but map move 3 on maps with a few open roads can help a lot. As for "theorycrafting", I think the difference of opinion lies here: "rout doesn't happen usually". Some players consider that it happening once is once too much, and it's better to pick 'always' over 'usually'. Body ethereal is useless for expansion unless you play on huge maps where games last forever and never finish. When it's researched, opponents can have evo 3 or 4, and therefore they will target the hydras with magic ranged attacks that bypass body ethereal, as Ally said. The problem with LA Pythium is not expansion. Legionnaires do that well. Hydras may or may not. I tend to think they don't. The problem is what to do with the mages? If you get lucky and find a reveler with Blood, you can summon weak assassins (satyrs, seducers actually) for 1 Blood slave, which is awesome. Unfortunately, you need 10 revelers or more before you luck on one, and apart from leading troops, N1 revelers are plain bad. |
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| suppenit | Jan 10 2016, 02:13 AM Post #38 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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In this case difference is made by en masse term. 3 map move guys are fort only soldiers while Pythium enjoys recruited everywhere decent troops, so most likely majority of troops will have map move 1. As for mages, it is good question. I'd say it depends on situation. Any single Water, Air, Astral, Death or Nature spell is available by communion. One obvious tactics is use of massed F(FN) recruit-everywhere mages in early wars. Summon Phoenix Power with gem or Jar of Fire, Eagle Eyes and Fireball spam. Another one is to go Astral route with Theurgs and Astral gifted Renatas and Renatus. Communioned slaves survival has obvious synergy with E9N9 bless. Welcome Stellar Cascades and maybe Thunderstrikes. Third one is to go death-nature route: half of Renatus are DS or D2 mages, they will do so-so good skellyspam. Add swarms from N1 Revellers, poison and fear of a few Hydras, vine men from Acorns and maybe summoned vine men/Ogres, poison from summoned Bog Beasts - it may turn quite effective against many opponents. Plus killer combo of Foul Vapors, Rigor Mortis, Grip of Winter, Heat from Hell. However it is to still to be proved in MP. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| Ally | Jan 10 2016, 11:22 AM Post #39 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I've played several PBEMs as LA Pythium. Just my 2 cents. 1) Hydras are useful in conjunction with Skelespam mages. 2) Theurg do too little to justify recruiting them in large numbers. Serpent priests are needed from the cap instead. 3) W Renata become useful battle mages when you reach Alt 6, they can spam Frozen Heart. 4) Map move 3 infantry is invaluable. |
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| LDiCesare | Jan 10 2016, 12:54 PM Post #40 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I don't see why I'd recruit infantry outside forts unless I need fire resistant infantry or need to build defense in one place. Plus those guys are resource-hungry, so you can't mass them, and wasting commanders turns to gather them all around looks like a waste of time. Comitatenses rock. Palatines have too much encumbrance and cost too much in my opinion. Communion requires B, which you barely have, or S, which is restricted to theurgs (weak, capital-only) and some randoms. Outside capital, you only have S renati (both kinds), and only very few of them have S so you'll be hard-pressed to use communions. Skelespam from forts and fireballs from fortless labs look much better, but you're still massing armies of wimpy mages. I used foul vapors once in order to test, with some skelespam and some N items to protect from poison + poison wards. Was not overly impressed by the results, but it can be fun. I also actually like the gladiators. If you know (as in 100% sure) someone will make a certain move, you can throw at them a bunch of cheap good fighters in a pinch from any fort. Of course, you lose them all afterwards, but they can hold your walls for cheap too (if you know a relief army is coming - otherwise a scout will scare them away). |
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| suppenit | Jan 10 2016, 07:35 PM Post #41 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Commander turns waste no time - commanders are recruited anywhere. And more cheap troops is always good, especially troops that do not lock productive powers of forts. 25% of non-capital mages recruited in forts and 100% of capital production if one switches to theurgs can participate in communions, so we can reliably assume it is available. I can see communion as a staple to cast some crucial spell (Fog Warriors / Storm / Mass Flight / Air Fend / Darkness / Rigor Mortis / Relief), as additional to main troops firepower vs prone targets (Soul Slay) or as a solution to double skellispamming quantity making use of Death-Astral Renatuses. If we think about Pythium from skellispamming point, it appears to be very good. Big and small hydras are fantastic dream of any skellyspamming nation: regenerating hardy troops spawning poison and fear. Yes, it is harder to make critical mass of skellispamming mages - but Hydras make for it, taking hits and doing damage and allowing skeletons to stay alive. Usually skeletons love cold, but as Pythium we have hot-loving skeletons (to fit Hydra cold-blooded feature) together with Heat from Hell and Rigor Mortis. Then half of Epoptes - StR recruited in wilderness N(NE) mages come with N2 - they can be amassed and will spam Sleeping Cloud and/or Panic like there is no tomorrow. This tactic transforms Pythium mages from useless crap people to high efficient juggernaut of destruction. There are N1 Revellers to waste casting Protection and Swarms and Death-Water and Death-Nature Renatuses to do research in forts. However this tactics need investments of gold, appropriate mage recruitment, research and gems put to it. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| Ohlmann | Jan 10 2016, 08:13 PM Post #42 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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Your comment continue to make no sense. Skelespam and hydra have 0 synergies because hydras don't have ranged attacks, so either your skeletons are in front and your hydras are useless, or the hydra are in front, and really what's the point of the skeleton ?. And LA Pythium is horrible at skelespamming (like at anything else, mind you). So really, what's the point ? Find another creative way to waste gold ? Epoptes aren't bad, but a lot of nations have better mages ; I can confidently assure your that epoptes + renatus isn't anywhere near half the power of, say, MA C'tis, who have similar paths but is good at it. |
| Worthy Heroes - UW Expanded | |
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| suppenit | Jan 10 2016, 08:36 PM Post #43 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Ohlmann, it makes perfect sense to use your opinion as an indicator to distinct perfect working tactics - these are tactics you don't understand and blame - from weak suicidal stategies - you usually praise them. Main problem of Hydra (or Niefel Giant or Anakite or any other big regenerating troop) is being swarmed by enemies and take too much damage in too small time. Skeletons prevent it from happening. Main problem of skeletons is being too weak - Hydras fear and poison auras add serious punch to them. So they make perfect synergy covering each other weaknesses, while poison aura of Hydra doesn't harm skeletons. Comparing with MA C'tis, it is easy to see it's advantage: skelespammers recruitable in any fort any turn. For Pythium it is twice worse: there is one skellyspammer per two fort turns (D2 and DS Renatus). It is not so obvious that MA C'tis has to waste nature and death gems and do some serious research to add Poison aura (Bog Beasts) and Fear aura (Ghosts) to skeletons, while for Pythium it isn't the case, hydras are available for gold after first turn. As for Epoptes, you miss their main benefit - they are recruitable anywhere with just a lab (500 gold points investment and 1 turn delay), while MA C'tis has to build fort and lab (1300 gold points investment and 5 turns delay) to recruit MarshMasters. Epoptes are StR, so we should count lab cost twice to be honest - still 1000 gold is less than 1300. They have no analogue in MA C'tis national tree. MA C'tis relies on tons of skeletons only, and Pythium utilizes less skeletons but has very strong supplementary levers to turn less numerous skeletons into more strong army: recruitable Hydras and cheap N1 and N2 mages recruitable in wilderness. Now see in future - after Enchantment6 is hit C'tis uses Foul Vapors, Rigor Mortis and maybe Grip of Winter. Pythium casts the same, but also adds Heat from Hell. In matter of fatigue draining Pythium is stronger too. And it is before we account numerous N2 Epoptes spamming Sleeping Clouds! One more synergy for Pythium is that this strategy utilizes unused N2 Epoptes (usually we want Earth randoms for sitesearch) and N1 Revellers who have largest research malus and largest heretic bonus and whom we prefer to stay in enemy lands. Other synergy to mention is N9E9 bless making Hydras horrible beasts perfectly suits Pythium mages, most of whom (anyone recruited in forts) are sacred. I appreciate you taking one of best skellispamming nations for comparison. As Pythium beats it we can conclude it is really good in skellispamming. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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| LDiCesare | Jan 11 2016, 05:29 PM Post #44 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Pythium can skelespam but it's not good at it. LA Pythiium has worse or same mages for skellyspam as LA Agartha, LA T'ien Ch'i. LA Xibalba. Gath's yeddeoni are also about as good as renati for skellyspaming but lack synergies. Xibalba can definitely do all the same support in terms of poison and heat as Pythium, but easier, and can quagmire to boot. If you want to mass renati, you need lots of forts and temples, money which might have been spent on just other labs for more heretic mages? Although that may not be more efficient, I don't know. Furthermore, calling hydras "hardy troops" is a bit baffling. Particularly the small ones. These are very squishy, even with a bless. I'm not convinced about going all-theurg. They have S, can have A, so they're your only hope of ever casting fog warriors, but they are cap-only, poor map move, the AS ones you want have no teleport ability to make up for it. If your SA theurg dies, you'll have a hard time replacing him considering they are slow and uncommon. |
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| suppenit | Jan 11 2016, 10:01 PM Post #45 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Small hydras require strong skills to use - my advice is to avoid them unless one really needs punch. And if N9E9 blessed big hydra which is able to take province guarded by small squad of heavy cavalry and supporting crossbowmen solely can't be called "hardy troop" then what can? Pythium has Quaqmire spell available as well - my fault to forget to mention it. Pythium Renatuses with Hydras can defeat many opponents, but ultimately can't break fort walls in reasonable terms. Having several forts is convenient to produce big wall-breaking squads of independent cheap-resource archers or x-bows, who have synergy with Flaming Arrows - and need drastically other counters than Hydras+skelespammers. Also it is good to produce this movement-3 infantry people praise. I admit it is complex strategy to boot that needs significant investments, starting from double bless. One needs to have in proper place poisoning Map Move 1 Hydras, to recruit several skellespammers with 50% chance per recruitment and bring them to army, to bless every Hydra and every mage, make some anti-archers and anti-flanking-attack decoys. But just a couple of skellyspamming mages with Enchantment3 researched spamming Raise Skeletons have decent positive impact to survivability of Hydras vs medium size enemy forces, and several skellyspamming mages escorting Hydras are force to be reckoned with of "decisive battles" category. On further development to Enchantment6 this combo gains more and more power: Enchantment2: Personal Regeneration if one is lucky to get Astral random Serpent Priest to cover communion slaves with Regeneration; Enchantment3: Raise Skeletons and Regeneration to cast to Hydra by N3 Serpent Priest or N2 Epopte with nature gem overspent for important battles, Enchantment4: Raise Dead, Antimagic and Flaming Arrows for archer squads, Twiceborn to try chances to get D3 Rinatus Enchantment5: Horde of Skeletons, Quaqmire and Foul Vapors, Enchantment6: Rigor Mortis, Grip of Winter, Heat from Hell, Relief, Arrow Fend. Skull Talismans and Acorns are good items to add to such armies to place more bodies on battlefield. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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