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| LA Pythium???; Da fuq do I do with these guys? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 2 2014, 07:53 AM (13,203 Views) | |
| LDiCesare | Mar 26 2016, 08:45 AM Post #91 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I once played expanding with gladiators/retiarii. It's expensive and slow because you have to replace them and bring them in. Any opponent with a scout can destroy half your army while it's moving forward. Building nothing but milites + gladiators for 3 years? By year 3, you should have killed one or two nations in order to remain in the game. Considering gladiators and milites are crap troops, I don't understand how you could have achieved that. What do you mean by building a magister? This is not Man. |
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| Zonk | Mar 26 2016, 11:59 AM Post #92 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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I'd be *REALLY* wary of using gladiators, because of the scout issue. I really hate the fact they use that mechanic and wish they were switched to something that made more sense in context. I think Gloin meant the 'Magister Militum', the 120 leadership commander. |
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NATION MODS Spoiler: click to toggle OTHER MODSOni Spectral Weapons Zonkmod | |
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| Rejakor | Mar 26 2016, 01:13 PM Post #93 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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He means a magister militatum, LA Pythium's Legatus Legionis (which should really be the name of a multihero supergeneral they get, rather than a recruitable 120-leader). From this build, an awake super rainbow who casts flying shards at indies, and the advice to not bother with mages until year 3, i'm not going to argue this further. Whatever settings, maps, or people Gloin plays with, they are clearly far different to the usual MP fare. So arguing with this advice is pointless. |
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| LDiCesare | Mar 26 2016, 06:59 PM Post #94 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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He's not saying to not bother with mages till year 3. He's saying to build 5 labs by year 1. He'sjust not very clear regarding what mages he builds. Sounds like just lab rats (mystes and serpent acolytes) until you meet enemy dominion. |
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| GlointheDark | Mar 26 2016, 08:55 PM Post #95 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Not build any mages? What are you talking about? My whole point of this is crappy troops supported by crappy mages. With pythium you have 8gp/9rp milites, 8 gp/1 rp gladiators. 35 gp 1 resource hydras. You crank out a bunch of the damn things, milites mostly. Are they crap - sure. But once you get them to 13-14 morale (magister, standard, horn or fanaticism or experience or home) they both hold a line farily well and are cheap. Conquering an average ai province will cost you around 5 milites. The vast majority of your mages are milites. Crap - but an outstanding value. And you will crank them out by the boatload. Expect to have around 40 mages, 300 rp by the end of year 1. You're using the immense RP generated by the mystes to support whatever path you want to proceed in, whether its your rainbow or fort mages. Want to build theurgs that can gate - you can. Want to build up to lamia queens - you can. Want to spam hordes of maenids backed by buffs - you can. Want to go flame arrows - y ou could. I don't know why you would, but you could do it. Rejakor - I agree that since dom 4, for most nations, rainbows aren't cost effective. But I would argue is a viable path for this nation. You don't need dominion - you do need gems. You do need path boosters, and a way to march up the summons tree. |
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| GlointheDark | Mar 26 2016, 09:08 PM Post #96 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Thats not how I think you should use gladiators, Cesaere. I ferry in 10 or so gladiators, laid out as I mentioned, when I face things like cav. Your first few turns, with this build, when you have no resources, you use glads as necessary. But once your ring around your capital is complete you'll have enough resources to build out tons of milites. |
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| GlointheDark | Mar 26 2016, 09:10 PM Post #97 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Right. You build serpent acolytes at the start, because your first priority is to get your military cranked up. So you build the cheapest mages you can. |
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| Admiral_Aorta | Mar 28 2016, 07:45 AM Post #98 |
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Suddenly a troll appeared in the laboratory!
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are you really suggesting using the divine emperor in combat as a central part of your strategy? he's extremely slow, fragile, and can only be in one place at a time, and early on before much research has been done he can't do much anyway. what happens if a nation with actually good mages and raiding capability attacks you at multiple places at once? I also don't understand the reference to fanaticism as the divine emperor's speciality, because he's unable to cast it, not being a priest, and he doesn't have it as a #onebattlespell. In addition to that, I've just tried to make a pretender with that build, and I'm unable to because I have -233 points. Either you've been playing with a mod, or the build in your post is different from what you've been using in games. |
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| LDiCesare | Mar 28 2016, 08:08 AM Post #99 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I think you must replace order 3 by turmoil 3 in his build, and expansion works fine. Gold is definitely not an issue as you don't build anything expensive. The pretender doesn't do anything useful in combat early onbut can lead an army or reinforcements, and site search, replenish with some milites, build lab, get more milites, and move on. |
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| GlointheDark | Mar 28 2016, 01:47 PM Post #100 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Yep, apparently I dropped a "-" sign, I edited the original post to fix. In discussions, with LDi, he made some good points that do to a reputation for weakness, in many MP circles pythium should plan on being immediately attacked. In that case, you will not have time for blood research initially. |
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| Admiral_Aorta | Mar 28 2016, 10:40 PM Post #101 |
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Suddenly a troll appeared in the laboratory!
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What did you mean by saying that the divine emperor's speciality is fanaticism, a spell he can't use? |
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| GlointheDark | Mar 30 2016, 01:06 AM Post #102 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Sorry Aorta, I've been distracted by desura is back up . You are correct. In older versions, the divine emperor had fanaticism as an onbattle. But no longer. |
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| LDiCesare | May 15 2016, 08:25 AM Post #103 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Glointhedark; any chance of posting revised views on what to do with LA Pythium mages mid/late game based on current games feedback? |
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| GlointheDark | May 21 2016, 06:23 PM Post #104 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Hey Cesare. Didn't really have the opportunity to revise opinion - game was decided way to early. Opening position had two cav neighbors, a throne with 144 troops and enchantresses, and a heat related link that was closed. To top that off had a two barbarian invasions: turn 3, and 6. And a trog invasion on turn 4. Despite having a garrison, production and only misfortune 1. Somewhere around then, Ragha and I hit on a territory, and while I wiped out a few elephants it trashed my expansion army. I made a stupid move on turn 8: end result: god and prophet dead. Shortly thereafter with 5 territories, and an agressive Midguard(?) probing my lands I went on offense, with exactly zero chance of winning. His constant aggression/harrying meant he was my choice of method to commit suicide. Patala two turns later sieged gaths capital and another fort. At which point I hoped for some cheap territory pickups, seizing some gath lands. (Sorry Gath) Unfortunately - that desperate gamble didn't work. Gath beat Patala. Patala accidentally destroyed an army of mine. Meanwhile - on my 22nd attempt - I finally got my first blood reveler. Sadly, too late to make a difference. So at that point gath was invading, midguard (?) was as well. I lasted until turn 34?, but the game was phone in after turn 8. I left out a few sordid details - like having plague on virtually every province. Thought about making an AAR because of how bad it was. Lessons? Hmm - the perception of weakness *definitiely* was a factor - leading people to agressively expand in pythium's direction. Being no diplomacy - I couldn't try to seal a deal with any of my neighbors - and I had 5 of them discovered before turn 10. Midguard(?) sealed off water access with his earthsnake, the throne blocked me southward. East was blocked by mountain pass that didn't open till mid summer. With patala and ragha having elephants, I I squandered research going after charm in order to defeat a ragha rush that never came. The blood orgy spell was beautiful. I used the tangle vine spell to good effect, cast by pointless (ie., no blood) revelers. If I were to do it again - and mind you I still like pythium, I'm not sure what I would change. In testing, I handled the awake pretender much better than I did in the actual game. But I certainly didn't get my money out of it, in this game. |
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| fungalreason | May 24 2016, 09:38 PM Post #105 |
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Tartarian
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Here's a basic run-down of what worked for me in Bashup4 (although luck in diplomacy certainly played a part in my game). Getting ganged early is going to ruin the hopes of pretty much any nation, to be honest. Build: Awake E9 snake with turmoil + luck, growth 3, heat3, magic 1, neutral prod scales. Be very careful with your pretender. He's there to dissuade rushes, scale up your expansion, and open up summoning / forging options, all without having to spend much on prod scales or cash on sacreds. A death during expansion will almost certainly doom your chances at long-term survival . Early game (expansion + early war planning) - ignore your sacreds. You need to conserve money as much as possible, especially with luck scales. Limitanes are decent expanders for the cost. Back them up by crossbows once you hopefully find a decent spot to recruit them. With your god expanding as well, you should end up with a competitive province count. Rush const 2 + conj 4. This gives you vine ogres (with vine helmet) for a decent front line that can stand up to evocations well and be plugged into a poison army later on. Also fire elemental spam is an option if you get rushed and need quick defenses. Recruit mostly Theurgs, but you'll want a few serpent priests at least until you get one or two N3 ones. Aim to get them by the time conj 4 is done. I'm not even against getting a handful of serpent assassins if you need to save on cash for a few turns. If you get any D gem production from site searches, a group of assassins with skull talismans or acorns can decimate an unsuspecting foe in your first war. Pythium wont lack research with mystes production, and you don't really need a huge number of serpent priests since their usefulness falls off a great deal once you have enough for the mass army buffs. Put down early labs in safe spots that you can defend if necessary (or retreat the lab rats to safety). Recruit Mystes, not Revellers. I think that revelers early on are going most likely tank your economy. Maenads only shine once you get the buffs to support them. Place second fort carefully. Ideally aim for something with high resources + ability to recruit crossbows. Most likely you'll want to spam Renati out of any additional forts. Site search aggressively. You have great coverage with national paths. D2 Renati, N3+W2 serpent priests, S2+A1 theurgs, E1 mystes, F2 heliodromi manually searching can cover a huge portion of the potential sites. Since we plan to focus more on summons, uncovering sites ASAP can be greatly beneficial (be discreet though; as this may paint a target on you). Early mid game You should have started the first war, or be very close to doing so. Switch to enchantment next for flaming arrows. At enchantment 5 you get foul vapors and skelly spam as well and end up with the components to two different armies. Army 1) Flaming arrow crossbowmen potentially blocked by fire resistant limitane solari + fireball support (a few turns before war starts switch foreign labs over to produce enough Heliodromi). Army 2) Vine ogre + skelly spam poison immune army w/ foul vapors. This can also potentially flanked by small groups of the big hydras (if the balance sheet warrants). Use groups of at least 5 to avoid morale issues. Combine that with an assassin squad, and your opponents are going to have a hell of the time dealing with your flexibility. They can't even turtle in forts because your assassins have wall climbing, so you can pretty much dictate the terms of engagement. Late mid game Replace troops with more sturdy summons and increase mage diversity. Go up construction for research and path boosters. Your god can crank out statues at Ench 6, Earth Blood well at Ench 7, eventually Mechanical men at Const 7. Lamias do very well with mass buffs, so I phased out vine ogres in favor of these. Mage diversity - get Faerie queens for air access. Fog warriors and arrow fend can be very handy. You can get mound fiends with just a skull staff on a renatus which opens up life after death / rigor mortis / darkness as available tricks. You'll likely do much better against nations that do not have cold scales, so might be wise to plan your wars with this in mind. A squad of the big hydras can actually be a useful threat or deterrent. I ended up reserving one for most of the game for mostly defensive purposes, but always available for a faery trod if the opportunity presented itself. This is the point I'd recommend setting up a maenad factory if possible with revelers. Make sure to consolidate in one location. The unrest increase from satyrs will mean you get zero income from that province in very short time. Set up a communion by consolidating S1D1 renati and theurgs. Focus on deploying them only in fights where you can use them on the defensive... especially against anyone that can field turn 1 communion killing strategies like rain of stones. Build items that can help with your poor mobility. Crystal coin is insanely useful if you can obtain one. This will open up Gateway with a starshine cap on an S2 theurg. Your next wars can be swift and unexpected with this. If you did get Faery queens, pocket ships also provide a workaround for all those slow moving forces. Also coins open up mind hunt as a response to raiders. This is a very high priority item to obtain for you. Crystal matrices are another highly coveted item to trade for if possible (can allow turn 1 communion defenses, and high D or Air battlefield magics with mound fiends) Pythium also has plenty of options for attacking fatigue as well (heat from hell, grip of winter, stellar cascade spam, rigor mortis, quagmire, etc...) offset by mass resistance buffs + relief. This adds a new dimension opponents that were probably already struggling to deal with your diverse armies. Late game - Focus on army buffs and work up to master enslave. You should outpace pretty much everyone in research, so this is a realistic option if it's a decently sized map. S2 with cap + coin + 8-16 slaves + Light of the Northern start + Power of the Spheres is enough to get there with room to spare. Mass maenad armies can quickly snowball into something your opponents can't handle, especially supported by buffs. With fog warriors, life after death, mistform, mass regeneration, mass protection, and appropriate resistances, your troops are now suddenly super resilient. Charm, disintegrate, and soul slay behind your troops will shut down attempts by your opponents to cleave through your hordes with thugs of any sort. Depending on the thrones obtained, your sacred cavalry might even turn into a worthwhile gold sink. The E9 was mostly for your mages, but it also turns them into super low encumbrance / high prot forces. You'll probably want flying thugs to help end wars more quickly. I found bane lords to be most accessible, but of course at this point in the game there may be other options. |
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1:02 AM Jul 11