| Welcome to Dominions 5 Mods. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| Analysis on Xibalba; An overview of Xibalba on all ages. | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 4 2014, 02:53 PM (11,953 Views) | |
| RodriguesCIA | Dec 4 2014, 02:53 PM Post #1 |
|
Maenad
|
Disclaimer: I am no expert player, and I have no experience on MP, and very little with blood magic. I do, though, have interest on this nation, and I know a little about reviewing units. So consider this an introduction to Xibalba's assets more than anything else. Quite some time ago, on this very forum, I wrote an barely useful guide on LA Agartha, on the times of Dominions 3. Now that I have bought Dominions 4, I decided to go beyond: I will write an barely useful not-exactly-guide on ALL AGES of Xibalba. Jump in and come with me on this ride of mediocrity and half hearted effort! Xibalba is a new faction, spanning on the three ages, with the pretty much granted Blood 1-2 (a bit weak, but welcome), Death 2-3, Earth 2-3 (1-2 on EA) and Nature 2-3 (1-2 on EA, but too expensive) on all ages. Then we have Fire 2-3 on EA and Water 3-4 (or a more economically viable Water 2-3) on MA. Finally, on LA, just a minor (though granted) Water 1, which is only worth of note because it is really easy to boost and theoretically enough to eventually get you to the queens. They are a nation of blood, always having access to Blood Searcher +1, with pretty assured, cheap access to Fire+Blood mages on EA (Ah K'In, F1 100% +1 E/D/B, that also doubles as your second most cost effective researcher), which allows for the feared Ozelotl, but on MA and LA, though you have more assured, cheap (not as EA) Blood mages with a solid Nature, the only one that can get Fire 1 have 2.5% chance of doing so. You still can summon other sacreds, mind you, with Blood or Nature, but you will hardly, if ever, will mass produce Ozelotls as in EA. If you find a native mage or priest with F1, don't lose your chance to boost them to B1, the slaves will be well spent and easy to come by. On priests, many of them are mages, which help the research, but only by LA you will get an Holy 3. On the troops matter, we have the always present (though not always at the top, as you will see later) Zotz, a blind, cold-blooded, poor patrol (though neutralized by Flying), forest surviving bat people that only gets to size 2 due to the wings, whose omnipresent stealthy version armed with clubs and spears of obsidian and always recruitable at caves and forests having bellow average Strength (7), Health Points (7), and Morale (9), but surprisingly, above average Attack (11), Defense (11-12), and Magic Resistance (11), making them reliable, fast attacking, and hard hitting assault troops that are always useful and can easily swarm enemies, unlike Caelum. Also, unlike Caelum, they NEVER get shields, which might contribute a little to Encumbrance (3), but what is the point of enduring fighting longer if you are not sure you will survive time enough for that? EA Troops Sacreds: they have access to pretty cheap though good quality capital-only sacreds in the form of Sun Guides, boasting good protection (13, no helmets though), great morale (13), good Magic Resistance (12), slightly above physical attributes (S8 and HP8) and combat skills (AS13, DS11), with a magic weapon. The only thing that hinders them is the encumbrance (6), which, with the fact they are flying units, is kinda if a big deal. But an light E bless, it might be solved. No stealthy, but with Body Guard 3. Compared to other sacreds, their attributes put them somewhere between good and mediocre, but have in mind they are cheap goldwise, competent hitters, well protected and, later on, your unique global Theft of the Sun (which you should aim for, but be aware on MP), gives them Awe, which is pretty darn unique. Still, if you plan to put on a bless pretender, tailor it around the Ozelotls, as they will be far more superior and numerous. Remainder: On the more mundane troops, we have terrible rangeds as the Xibalban Darth Throwers that should only be used if you desperately need an cheap, easy to amass, skirmishing chaff wall. We also have more reliable, armored and drilled (than the omnipresent version) Xibalban Guards, that are on most aspects pretty above average, and armed with obsidian clubs, can put in quite some pain. Finally, they have scorpions of various sizes, wit the biggest one, the Xibalban Scorpion, being the only one considered an animal and not a magic unit, which allows him to make use of a commander's Beast Master skill. They are reasonably tough for their size, with two attacks and a Death Poison that can down pretty much anything at the reasonable price of G15 R1. They are slow, though, with Map Movement of 1, but at Early Age, your best hope of an actual holding line that can take a punch and deliver other while your bats fly to attack the rear. MA Troops Sacreds: At MA, we have a big change of gimmick, with (mutated) Atlanteans showing up. now called Muuch, with swamp survival, Dark Vision 50% and (obviously) Amphibious. We have three of them, with the two first ones being two varieties of Chaak Muuch, the first one at G26 R26, called Chaak Muuch Obsidian Warrior, with great attributes (HP15, P13, MR11, Morale 13, St12, AS11, DS12, Encumbrance 7, Movement 1/7), fighting with an Poisoned Obsidian Blade (Paralyzing Poison) and finally a (Hide) Shield. The other variety are the Chak Muuch Darth Thrower, costing G20 R4, with slightly lower attributes, leather armor (P9) and no shield, but armed with Poison Darths that are fired at Strength range (12) with Precision 9+1, with the same poison as their melee counterparts. Finally, the towering (size 3) Wo' Muuch, worth of note due to the high HP26 and Protection 17, sharing the other stats with the Obsidian Warrior, with no exceptional deviations except for wielding an Obsidian Shard Blade, costing G45 R38. The Obsidian Warrior seems to be the superior choice. Remainder: The basic Zotz (Obsidian Club Sword and Light Lance) are still present, but now, are recruited at the limit of 10 a month (each variety). The Muuch have an underwhelming Militia unit (that is the only Muuch unit with Map Movement 2, sadly), an Dart Thrower that can hit something (with no poison though), HP14 and above average across the board Muuch Warriors in 4 flavors (Club or Lance, Hide or Bronze Hauberk) with shields, and the special, forest recruited Muuch Jungle Warrior, identical to the obsidian club wearing Warrior, but with Stealty +40. All costs ranging between G7-10 and R2-10, they have an pretty good standing army, with the sole downside of being slow, both on the map and battlefield. But they are there to be tough, while the Zotz take care of the quickness. LA Troops Sacreds: At LA, Zotz are once again giving orders and calling names, but the Muuch are still very present and important, unlike the MA Zotz, resulting in sacreds of both races. We have the Zotz Obsidian Warrior, which is a carbon copy of the Sun Guide, minus body guard and the slightly lighter Obsidian Cuirass, that increases a little movement and reduces encumbrance (which is VERY welcome) at the expense of a point of Protection. Then we have the Wo' Muuch, exactly as in the MA, but now with a lighter skin due to living far underground, resulting in a Dark Vision 100. This is an EXCELLENT mix of sacreds, with the cheap, fast, hard hitting Zotz supporting the sturdy, shielded, hitting-as-a-truck Wo' Muuch. The Map Movement difference is huge, but during an offensive, in which you're most likely conquering territory-by-territory, those two go together as a beauty. Also, have in mind that you now have Holy 3 priests, which allows for Divine Bless. Make use of that in big armies of sacreds with separated formations. Remainder: Same Zotz as in EA, except now the professionals (Guards) wear Scale Mail Cuirasses and come in two flavors (Obsidian Club Sword and Light Spear), and from the Muuch (now all with Dark Vision 100), bronze-clad sheild-bearing Sak Muuch Warrior in the two usual flavors, and a leather-clad Sak Muuch Darth Thrower, which is superior to the Zotz version in all aspects, but still, is a piss-poor ranged unit. No recruitment limits, very low costs (Zotz G7-9/R1-5, Muuch G10/R4-10), and reasonably good troops (though probably not close at the standard of LA experts) mean you can have an good quality and big army for marching, or a fast moving flying swarm for whenever the necessity arises. Just beautiful. Final Notes: They have a handful of summoned sacred units across the ages that changes a little, but with good sacreds all across the board and the fact you will never have the means to be a dedicated blood nation, I don't really see the point. They also have access to unique summoned commanders in the form of Balaams (Conj7, N4) and Chaacs (Conj8, A4) that expand your access into Air, Fire, Water, and Nature, but are also pretty expensive gemwise. With a Blood 4 and Nature 4 pretender, you can fetch all of them. They have unique battlefield spells, as Gift of the 1st-4th Soul (buffs, 1st -Regeneration, 2nd-Bludgeoning Resistance, 3rd-Reinvigoration, 4th- Luck) and Break the 1st-4th Soul (debuffs, 1st- Bleed/Disease, 2nd-Limp, 3rd-Fatigue, 4th-Curse/Decay), all quite early on the Thaumaturgy (and Blood) trees and easy to cast, however, single target. This makes their usefulness questionable, but they can still be great for you thugs, yours or enemies', specially considering you have flying mages that can leave the battlefield soon after casting those spells, as they can easily fly to where they are most needed. Just have in mind that the buffs and debuffs of the 1st soul doesn't work on undead, and the 2nd and 4th have a chance to miss ethereals. Range is also a little short, so be aware of flying, teleporting or fast moving thugs and SCs. Edit: Always correcting what is proven wrong. Those are my impressions on them trough the ages. I like them, no blatant weakness that I can see, and can get underwater by MA and LA. I will not say which pretender you should pick, or which spells you must research, because I quite frankly don't know. But I open this space for discussion on those matters, so I can learn more about them. Therefore, all feedback is welcome, and if you find this text useful, please, don't be afraid to use it. ... and I wouldn't mind if I am credited either. |
![]() |
|
| Ohlmann | Dec 4 2014, 03:49 PM Post #2 |
|
Dom 5 Beta Team
|
It's useful, if only because it's an explained opinion. Xibalba is a very strong blood nation in EA and LA however. I am not sure why they would not be a major blood power ? The ozelotls are especially strong in EA, where they are easy to cast. |
| Worthy Heroes - UW Expanded | |
![]() |
|
| RodriguesCIA | Dec 4 2014, 04:03 PM Post #3 |
|
Maenad
|
I hoped it would be more useful than that. On the matter of blood, well, yes, they are useful. I just don't see how the Ozelots top the Zotz sacreds when they are available. The problem is in that it is pretty expensive getting to blood 5 on Early Age (1/4 of their Ounaquis are Blood 4, 1/4 are Nature 2 Blood 3, and they cost more than 500 gold), when they have no dedicated patrol units. So while they can hunt blood slaves quite well... they aren't as good in keeping the settlements in check while doing so. Now, in Early Age, you can get to the top of the blood tree with the Ounaquis. Though expensive, it is possible. However, after that, it just becomes outright impossible for you to boost any of your Blood 2 mages to Blood 3, which makes the top summons a little hard to get. So, for MA and LA, you should really consider a Nature and Blood pretender if you really want to dig into blood. As I said, I am a relatively new player. I don't know what is "good enough", but I know what is the highest you can shoot for, due to Magic Boosting guides. And they can get to the top with most of their primary magic paths, and with Water on MA and LA. That's why this is not a fully fledged guide, I don't have the experience to make one, and yet still, I like this faction so much I wanted to contribute somehow. Edit: Reviewing your commanders (Ways, specifically, because they are the only ones with Blood and a random Fire), only 1/40 will have Blood 1 and Fire 1 to summon your Ozelots on the most basic ritual on MA and LA. On EA, your safest bet is the Ah K'in, a F1 mage with a 1/3 of B1. Not overwhelming, but in the realm of possibility. Still, I am not sure how efficient the basic summoning ritual would be when you have cheap, flying, reliable sacreds that you can transport without too much hassle trough the entire map. So yeah... a blood nation with interesting summons, but not the top one. On my humble opinion. |
![]() |
|
| Ohlmann | Dec 4 2014, 05:22 PM Post #4 |
|
Dom 5 Beta Team
|
No dedicated patrol units, but thye have super cheap patroller, so getting hundred after hundred slave is not too difficult. And Ozelotls blow all the sacred of Xibalba in the sky. They are beastly good, unlike the sun guide who are "okay, but kind of meh". Flying with 3 attack, demon so they see in darkness, and blessed on top ? Give me five serving. |
| Worthy Heroes - UW Expanded | |
![]() |
|
| RodriguesCIA | Dec 4 2014, 05:47 PM Post #5 |
|
Maenad
|
I know that Ozelots are the center of most Mictlan strategies, so I will not question their usefulness. I am just not sure if they are worth the 5 slaves a piece, as that's all you will get on unless you make an dedicated pretender to make boosters. And remember, you will only be able to mass manufacture those guys on EA 1/3 of the time, and 1/40 of the time on MA and LA out of your recruitables, so on EA it would take time to set up mass summoners, and on MA to LA, a matter of luck. Also, remember the Sun Guides are size 2, have a magic weapon, and don't need to see. Not better than the Ozelots, sure, but I still would rate them over any human Mictlan can throw on me. Hell, maybe they could score a better early expansion. On the patrollers, every single Zot have Patrol Bonus -1, which, if I remember correctly, reduces their efficiency to half. A native Commander with 40 of them on patrol would count as if he had 20. For that reason, just pick whatever you can recruit in big numbers without paying too much on one of your provinces... least I misread something while doing this research. Now, I just had an interesting finding for the possibility of armies of Ozelots. EA Mictlan have two mages capable of summoning them, the cap-only, G290 High Priest, and the 1/40, G65 Mictlan Priest. Xibalba have the G85, 1/3 Ah K'In that you can recruit in every fort. That means it is cheaper, possibly more efficient (though time consuming) to set your summoning with Xibalba than it is with Mictlan, and more: though they are not your most efficient researchers, they come pretty close, so you can, without fear, recruit only them to set up your infrastructure for latter on. If to be a powerful blood nation means to be able to summon powerful sacreds at the base of the resarch tree with numerous and cheap mages... I apologize for my judgement. This is indeed a very interesting strategy. However, I never planned to list strategies here, just analysis. I am here to learn as well, and I learned something. Edit: Just took a look on the spells, and noticed they have a global enchantment that steals the sun, plunging the world into darkness, get them 10 Fire Gems and 5 Astral Gems a turn, improves the Ah K'In fire magic, and gives the Sun Guides "its splendor" (Awe?), and is not beyond the possibility for them to cast without Pretender help. ... huh. |
![]() |
|
| Ohlmann | Dec 4 2014, 07:48 PM Post #6 |
|
Dom 5 Beta Team
|
I have a bit more time (not at work anymore), so I can get a bit longer. First thing first : my first sentence was not a dissing, but a way to say "having opinion is alway useful, even without strategies or deep consideration".
In EA, mass ozelotls for 5 slave a piece is a bargain, especially since the commander who summon them is an efficient research monkey. In fact, usually Mictlan summon them that way, Rain of Jaguiar is very far away. And Xibalba don't need a cap only mage to summon them. Now, MA cannot summon them (at all), and LA need a pretender for that (and some effort on top of that)
The Sun Guide is really nothing special. Both Eagle Warrior and Jaguar Warrior of Mictlan are a lot stronger (and I mean it). If he was not cap only, things would be very differents, but the sun guide is just average due to being very easy to kill and not horribly good offensively.
Zotz have all +1 patrol from flying, and -1 from penalty. So they are like regular militias. But 7g apiece. They also have +1 blood hunting when they have blood, which help a lot.
The global is at the very least hard to evaluate. He make you a very big target. And, yes, it give your sun guide Awe. Casting it without pretender help is pretty hard however. You need to nab the flaying hand, build a copper arm to use it together with a skullstaff, then nab a second D booster. And then you are set for the global. It's not very realistic. |
| Worthy Heroes - UW Expanded | |
![]() |
|
| RodriguesCIA | Dec 4 2014, 08:14 PM Post #7 |
|
Maenad
|
I took no offense on your words, that was a legitimate concern about this little text usefulness. On the sacreds matter, you are right, I believe I severely underestimated Mictlan. One flies and have two attacks, other have a second form, and finally, they have a cheaper, basic sacred for when you are feeling stingy. Still, one of my statements remain: I believe firmly they can make an better early expansion. Mictlan players don't use their jaguars the whole game because there are so many scary stuff on EA, and they must hold on the gold because soon their whole realm is going to be depopulated .I see value on cheap, swarming sacreds with good protection and above average stats. Given their size, they are pretty good, and given they are sacred, they are pretty cheap. Is a good place for them to be in, and I still like the fact they are easier to ferry around. They might not tackle as many neutrals, but by flying they can chose their fights better, and reinforce faster. I have no experience on MP games, but I believe setting an up Ozelotl factory would make you as likely to be targeted as casting this ritual. An observant player will notice you're not using your most cost-effective researchers, and they aren't even useful for battle. I don't know, the global is just something too good to let pass. Maybe you should try to ally with an weak dark vision faction (Agartha? I really don't know) and work together. Those guys would be kinda impressive with Awe. Still, that far on the road, meh. You will already have the portals of hell open. But they never failed me at early game and tackled pretty dangerous natives, including blood roots if I remember correctly. Well, I guess we found their niche: they can out-sacrifice Mictlan easily on EA. Later on, though, they are still an enigma to me... Edit: N5 (or N3, S1), D4, B3/4. That's the bare minimum a pretender needs to boost up and get the most relevant summons and boosters your guys can't forge. B4 if you don't want to put the Armor of Twisting Torns on your pretender. Ah K'In Kan Ek, with F2 D1 (1/3 to D2) can forge their own Skulls of Fire to get to F3. Your D pretender can them pimp them up with the D gear, including The Jade Mask, which they can wear, as they are cold blooded. Doesn't look that expensive, any rainbow can pull it out. Seems to be a good start to a strategy. |
![]() |
|
| Zonk | Dec 4 2014, 09:33 PM Post #8 |
|
Dom 5 Beta Team
|
Currently playing EA Xibalba in a MP and doing ok-ish in expansion, though I still have to get used to the fact that I *WILL*take losses, even if the indie army routs soon, because my Zotz simply lack the protection to stand to even a weak hit. Also, Sun Guides (and one of the sacred commanders, I think the 210 gold one) do indeed have Awe when Theft of the Sun is up. I'm not sure the Ah'Kin actually gain a bonus in Fire magic. I think it's just flavour (and the Fire gems, of course...) Shame that spell is so awkard to cast... One point in favor of Sun Guides is their very high attack (15) on a decent length weapon (=3), meaning that in melee they don't fall THAT easily thanks to repel if fighting things with swords or the like. Sure, they're no Jaguar Warriors but I have found them fairly good even if they're definetely not good at taking hits. I do really wish they kept the stealth, though - they're the only Zotz recruitable in EA with no stealth. The smaller scorpions are stealthy too, but the size 3 one isn't. |
|
NATION MODS Spoiler: click to toggle OTHER MODSOni Spectral Weapons Zonkmod | |
![]() |
|
| RodriguesCIA | Dec 4 2014, 10:05 PM Post #9 |
|
Maenad
|
Would be great, sure thing, but when you are a man-bat wearing golden armor flying around, you will not exactly pass as stealthy. Though this proves my thesis that they are pretty good attackers, though will take loses. Good thing they are cheap and easy to reinforce. A light N bless might make them somewhat better, and would be pretty darn useful for the faction. |
![]() |
|
| Admiral_Aorta | Dec 5 2014, 12:38 AM Post #10 |
|
Suddenly a troll appeared in the laboratory!
|
Blood doesn't really need boosters to get to high levels like the other paths do because once you've got a good slave economy going it's pretty easy to empower.
This is wrong, part of the reason that jags are so good is that you can keep using them throughout the game, even in late game they're useful if you chuck some buffs on them. You avoid your realm being depopulated by continuing to expand through enemy nations(though it's pretty unlikely that you're going to depopulate every province anyway even if you're not expanding very much, that takes a while). I think it's good that you're writing guides but I think you need to at least have some idea of how MP works, because you're saying some odd things in your posts. |
![]() |
|
| RodriguesCIA | Dec 5 2014, 12:50 AM Post #11 |
|
Maenad
|
I understand your point, admiral, but as I said, I am avoiding talking about strategies and stuff like that because I am aware I am a noob and there's literary nothing written about Xibalba on the moment, any age at all. My intent is to provide discussion material, not definitive answers. I just did this thread because I thought it would be more practical and useful than going somewhere and asking "hey, guys, could you write an Xibalba guide? Would really appreciate it". I am going to research it, so why not share the results? There's a reason I don't even call this a guide. Also, I have next to none experience with blood, but this nation caught my eye on it and I really got invested. Even though, weird guide or weird things said, at least I am learning more and more here. So I have that going for me. I will correct the first post as soon more things are pointed out, to make sure I will not be spreading misinformation. |
![]() |
|
| Zonk | Dec 5 2014, 12:22 PM Post #12 |
|
Dom 5 Beta Team
|
I expect Muuch will be changed so some have MM2. The fact militia has 2 while the rest has 1 has been reported as a bug, at least. Also we were told some of them are getting poison resist - perhaps only the red skinned ones however. Having some MM2 units would really be useful together with the swamp survival in some situations. On the soul spells: The bleeding one could be amazingly strong as a non-undead/lifeless thug/SC counter, since bleeding is terrible and there is no MR Check (Bleeding is 5% max HP damage, +10 fatigue every round, 10% to stop without regeneration...Pretty nasty.) Yes, range is short, but stilll, you could get some good use out of it. Also having a regeneration spell that is B instead of N could be useful for thugs that have Blood. On the precision issues: Don't forget that if you give an eye of aiming to a Zotz, they get the full +8 prec (since 'lost one eye' does nothing to them, being blind). So they go from prec 5 to a very good 13. And the soul spells have a +5 bonus. I can see this easily being worth the Air gems, though I have not actually tried it yet. On the summons: Chaac seem very bad - they autocast Storm BTW,which on a flyer nation is not necessarily a good thing. Balam less so and I could sorta see using them if I had A LOT of nature gems. Sacred Scorpions seem like they could be pretty good with an N9 blessing. Or at least, decent. Comparing them to the cave crab, it seems they might not do so well vs heavily armored unit as their attacks are NOT armor piercing and lower damage, but they get two of them one of which has death poison. They also have MR 12 which is respectable for an animal. |
|
NATION MODS Spoiler: click to toggle OTHER MODSOni Spectral Weapons Zonkmod | |
![]() |
|
| RodriguesCIA | Dec 5 2014, 12:35 PM Post #13 |
|
Maenad
|
The scorpions are good anti-thug and decent thug material: easy to summon, cheap, early on research tree, good natural weapons (specially for thugs and living SCs), misc slots, sacred, reasonably good stats... they work well. I like them. The Chaac could be far more if at the very least ONE Zotz that could fly during storms, a la Caelum. I would say they seem to make half decent thugs but, with D access, you could always aim for something better. If they weren't THAT expensive, I could consider using it with neutrals. |
![]() |
|
| Zonk | Dec 5 2014, 12:41 PM Post #14 |
|
Dom 5 Beta Team
|
As I said the scorpions seem decent to me but that damage is not that high when you are fighting a heavily armored thug. Still, a lucky hit and the enemy now has death poison on them. EDIT Seems I forgot that the stinger is piercing, so 20% armor reduction, meaning actually poisoning heavy-prot thugs is not going to be too difficult. On Chaacs: I did report them as bugged - they can't fly despite being storm spirits! That seems...wrong. Also, by neutrals do you mean indies? I think by the point you have access to Chaacs there are not going to be many indies around so I can't even see them being good for that. Plus, as you say, you have way better options as a nation. |
|
NATION MODS Spoiler: click to toggle OTHER MODSOni Spectral Weapons Zonkmod | |
![]() |
|
| LDiCesare | Dec 5 2014, 03:12 PM Post #15 |
|
*Spicy* Crew
|
The main problem is your poitn of view about blood: " the only age in which you can recruit the already mentioned Blood 2-3 commander, means you will most likely need a Blood pretender to make full use of this path". Basically, except you want a Blood bless, you'll rarely if ever pick B on a pretender. Fountains with their blood bonus can be an exception, but in general you just need B1 to get started. B2 is better, but it's definitely enough to get all the way through (you need to empower to B4 to start forging boosters). |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Academy of War · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2







1:02 AM Jul 11