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| Thoughts on Therodos; Mine and Yours | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 11 2015, 06:12 AM (3,591 Views) | |
| joansam | Oct 11 2015, 06:12 AM Post #1 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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So I had a bit of free time to mess around with Therodos today...they're cool thematically but very underpowered as of right now. Maybe this was an intentional decision by Illwinter (it makes sense to err on the side of caution so that a new faction doesn't unbalance the game) but they do seem to have some pretty big problems. My impression is: Therodos is a weak early game nation with a theoretically average-weak midgame and lategame, but because of the poor early start will probably end up far below average for the entire game. Pretender creation with Therodos is pretty high-stakes. They have a lot of weaknesses that could be shored up and a few strengths to capitalize on. Being a popkill nation with expensive troops you will need gold, and having sacred troops and mages you would really benefit from a number of blesses. The best design I've found so far is an imprisoned W4E6 Floating Mind with Dom7 T3P2G3L3M3. The E bless is basically mandatory for your Enc 6 Melia and Kouretes, and the W gives them 17 def once blessed, which makes them pretty tough. Scales-wise, Growth is also pretty much mandatory to keep income sources as long as you can. Turmoil Luck will give you a source of income once your people are dead, and M3 will pair nicely with that as well as making the most of your research mages and reducing MR by one so your spectral troops can hit a bit more with their MR-negate weapons. P2 lets you recruit more Kouretes in the early game, and more human troops later on. Your mages (all 2 of them, non-cap) are bad for their cost, with only the smith having a 25% chance of E2, and the rest of your paths N1E1, with randoms: W1A1F1. So your battle magic potential is basically minor evocations and even minor-er troop buffs, with the notable exception of useful E buffs for E random Melia. You will need to rely on your Str cap-only mages for mid-lategame magic that actually matters. This is one of Therodos' main weaknesses. Your Melia (which your capital says should be cap-only, but can be recruited in all your forts, thankfully) are expensive at 165 gold for a popkill nation, but they make alright mages and are also nice thugs. Being sacred takes a bit of the edge off upkeep, but they're still quite costly. You'll want to use smiths for research, at 125 gold for the same 9 RP. Despite their cost the Melia are still likely to be your main commander recruit because they're good generals and potentially great thugs. I haven't found a good use for their magic because they're only reliably N1, and annoyingly you have no easy way to boost this (no N income even if you wanted 10 gem thistle maces, and no battle magic N booster). The best battle magic I've found for them is Protection on one or two guys and then just Tangle Vines for the rest of the battle. But they can potentially make quite nice thugs. With the W4E6 blessing above, they have 13 attack and 19 defense, and effectively 3 encumbrance. I recommend taking a group of 3 or so, sticking them far in the back of the battlefield, and casting Blessing -> Barkskin then immediately attacking in the early game. They can't really cast other spells as their spell enc is 10, but this will clear indies pretty effectively. If you can find N sites, Vine Shields and Frost Brands would probably make them considerably better, and you can forge them fairly inexpensively with your dwarves and hammers. Cheap armor or messenger boots could get them fatigue-neutral or almost so, which would be very nice. Unfortunately without items they're fairly fragile for a 165 gold thug. With an E random smith, Iron Warriors on your Melia would help their survival a lot if you don't want to pay for items. The smiths themselves are kind of underwhelming. 125 gold for 9 RP is still expensive thanks to popkill, and their 5 resource bonus really doesn't make much of a difference...they would need to either be cheaper or have a bigger bonus, although their use as researchers means you'll still have enough around that they could help a bit. With dwarven hammers you can forge Air Quills for 2 gems, which will help research a lot. The E2 smiths will be very valuable because they can Summon Earthpower up to E3. These guys will be your only real non-cap battle mages, with the ability to cast all the nice E3 spells. Iron Bane when you're using spectral troops comes to mind...but you're paying about 500 gold per E random, so don't get too excited. Your two other mages are cap-only and Str...which is when you realize just how weak Therodos' magic is. The Daktyl is useful to give your Melia the items that help them, and for general forging. Your forge ability is pretty strong thanks to these guys. The Hekaterides give you good W and N access for most of the spells you could want, so you'll probably need some starting around the midgame. If you want your national Conjuration spells you'll have to spend a lot of time hoping for a D random Daktyl, and even then, they're so expensive at 8 gems that they really won't add much to your recruitment capability until later. In terms of troops, Therodos is also fairly lackluster. You have the very nice cap-only Kourete and then some resource-intensive human troops, who aren't bad compared to other nations' until you consider your low income. The spectral troops are decent with the really good spectral Kourete (a free Kourete with an MR-resist sword) except there aren't enough of them. Also, the MR-resist weapons mean your spectral troops will be all but useless against thugs, Awake pretenders and SCs, enemy sacreds, and any other magical units. For this reason you are incredibly weak against bless rushes, although hopefully they won't be able to come kill you underwater. In summary, Therodos' problems are: A grand total of 4 mages, only 2 non-caps and 2 Str cap-only. The mage line feels unfinished...your non-cap mages will have 2 paths which are almost always just 1 level in each. The Melia and smith both land on the wrong side of autocalc, so you have no cheap researcher, which sucks for a popkill nation. Your only decent battle mage is E2 with only a 25% chance of getting him, and he costs 125 gold. You have no powerful mages except for the expensive, cap-only, slow-to-recruit...need I say any more? If you ever live to the midgame you probably won't have enough of your cap-only guys to accompany armies, so your troops will get destroyed by enemy spellcasters while you cast Tangle Vines. Therodos really needs a few new mages, a better/cheaper Melia and smith, non-Str cap-only mages, or all three. Right now, Therodos' mage line has terrible diversity (not strictly of paths, but certainly of options) and isn't properly cost-balanced even for its few available recruits. Popkill nation without: 1. Sufficient freespawn to make up for your low income 2. Summonable mages that are cheap enough in gems to recruit regularly, if the nation lacks above-average recruitable mages. Popkill nations typically have both of these, but Therodos has neither. And its strengths are: The Melia can make good (albeit expensive, both in gold and items) thugs. Your sacreds are at least average, considering your reduced income. And you have cool heroes. I've only played against the AI in a few test games, where Therodos does alright. But I can't imagine how it would be competitive in MP...it's like Illwinter wanted to make a hybrid popkill/regular nation, but made it the worst of both. Especially disappointing because I really like their theme. What do you guys think? Is Illwinter planning on making more units for Therodos, or doing major balance changes? I'd love to hear it if anyone has found a good way to play them. Also...has anyone had all of their recruited commanders be named No Name? At some point tonight it just started, and starting a new game doesn't fix it. I've started about 30 test games and it happened in games with Therodos, Oceania and Pelagia...land nations, Rl'yeh and Atlantis were fine. Edit: I think Worthy Heroes (1.23) is causing it. Can't seem to get the problem to happen when it's disabled. It's fixed in 5.4. |
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Dom5 mod: WARHAMMER COMPLETE Dom4 guide: EA Lanka: Boy Eats World | |
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| Indract | Oct 11 2015, 09:44 AM Post #2 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Another issue is how bad the nation is against its UW opponents. The cap sacreds are bad UW, and the ethereal freespawn gets countered easily since UW troops have got either high MR (at least 12 or more) or magic weapons (atlantis). To the point where there's pretty much no point playing them in MP if another UW nation is there as well. |
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| joansam | Oct 11 2015, 04:43 PM Post #3 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Oh yeah, I hadn't thought of that, because I don't usually play UW nations. It looks like Therodos would be basically helpless against every other UW nation...maybe they could put up some sort of fight against Atlantis, but they'd have no chance against Rl'yeh, Oceania, or Pelagia. Looking at the other UW nations' troop rosters makes me want to cry. Every single one of them has better mages, better troops, and way more money to buy them with. And the UW nations aren't exactly OP. |
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Dom5 mod: WARHAMMER COMPLETE Dom4 guide: EA Lanka: Boy Eats World | |
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| Zonk | Oct 12 2015, 01:12 PM Post #4 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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I hope Illwinter does some changes to the nation. I don't think the popkill will be removed or significantly nerfed, but making the spectral troops more usable, maybe. Peltasts and Archers cannot use their ranged weapons UW, for example. UW indies tend to have decent MR too so they are not great at expansion. Ichtyds have < 10 MR, but also very high HP, so the spectres aren't exactly amazing against them. As for thugging Melias - it seems so tempting, but also likely to end badly. They have no built-in helmet, for one. So even with protection buffs from N or even E, one good head hit and they are going down. I agree the land troops are not very usable when you get +5 and not +10 resources from the smith. On the plus side, some of these smiths will be E2 and they are sacred which is *something*, as you mention. Worth a note - disciple Therodos lose both popkill and freespawn, but not the special 'friendly' dominion penalty (noticed that?). |
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NATION MODS Spoiler: click to toggle OTHER MODSOni Spectral Weapons Zonkmod | |
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| joansam | Oct 12 2015, 08:06 PM Post #5 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I didn't even realize that the ranged weapons don't work underwater. How does that make any sense? They're not even physical projectiles, just some sort of spectral energy. I don't really know how Therodos is supposed to field armies. Ephors are way too expensive and your dominion summons somewhere from 0-6 guys per turn in your cap, compared to Ermor's which seems to do about 15-20 in the cap, and some in non-cap territories. Ermor gets an army this way, whereas Therodos gets about 25% of one. Therodos can't summon Ephors for a long time unless it gets lucky with a hero, and even then you don't have the gem income to summon more than 5 or so Ephors for the first few years. And each Ephor can only raise ONE soldier per turn. Your only good troops are yourgood cap-only and decent non-cap sacreds, basically. Could you clarify the built-in helmet comment? I don't see a helmet. And as for disciple...what is the friendly dominion penalty? |
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Dom5 mod: WARHAMMER COMPLETE Dom4 guide: EA Lanka: Boy Eats World | |
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| Zonk | Oct 13 2015, 05:10 AM Post #6 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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Forgot a 'no' on the helmet part, sorry. Edited that. Ephors raise spirits equal to their holy level, so a prophet can get you 3. Still not much. Friendly dominion normally gives +1 morale. Therodos gets -1 instead. |
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NATION MODS Spoiler: click to toggle OTHER MODSOni Spectral Weapons Zonkmod | |
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| Korwin | Oct 14 2015, 12:28 PM Post #7 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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Production? Growth? On an Pretender for an Dom-Kill Nation? |
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| Ohlmann | Oct 14 2015, 12:43 PM Post #8 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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A dom kill nation that absolutely, desesperatly, and completely need as much money as it can. |
| Worthy Heroes - UW Expanded | |
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| Zonk | Oct 14 2015, 12:48 PM Post #9 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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Production also lets you recruit more Therodian Hoplites. And Kouretes at the start. Therodian Hoplite armor + tougher shields are actually fairly impressive even in the age of giants, but their resource cost is so high that the +5 res smiths don't help much... You need what, 6 smiths for an extra hoplite? Of course, their *other* stats are only average. |
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NATION MODS Spoiler: click to toggle OTHER MODSOni Spectral Weapons Zonkmod | |
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| Lambert_S | Dec 15 2015, 01:35 PM Post #10 |
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Thed Dude
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I have tried out Therodos a fair bit (two wins in multiplayer games and participating as Therodos in four still ongoing ones) and though it has issues it's a decent side. First of all, though it needs gold, your domkill messes up normal income, so rely purely on Turmoil + Luck, don't bother trying to fight the domkill with growth as in the long run your pop is dead anyway. Second, spectral philosophers, with Sloth 3 Magic 3 they have 19 research for 0 upkeep, much better than the one a turn ephors. Daktyls have a slightly better than one in five chance of getting D1 so keep building them till you get two. Thirdly, get a big fat bless, major water especially helps with the one attack. Make your Kabieros build shambler skin suits and move to your cap (fort every land province adjacent to your cap), that'll help you produce lots of cap-sacreds. Fourthly, expansion rocks as Thed, hoplites and peltasts as spectres have decent stats (10 or 11 attack and 14 defense) and repel doesn't check MR before moral. You can expand blind turn 1 most times and take at least half a dozen water provinces before Fifthly and lastly for this truncated list, the main power of Therodos is having all paths but blood and astral accessible early for sitesearching and later for casting pretty much any spell ever, allowing the fewer troops you have to get lots of buffs put on them and have summoned soldiers/mages to bolter their ranks (claymen and terracotta soldiers are cheap, Telkhines can cast nigh anything you want). For more in depth, there's the guide on the wiki. |
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| dyslexicfaser | Dec 15 2015, 10:14 PM Post #11 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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W9 with medium armor berserkers (6 enc plus whatever berserk piles on) and spectrals with MR negate weapons? Seems like kind of a bad idea. |
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| Ohlmann | Dec 15 2015, 11:22 PM Post #12 |
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Dom 5 Beta Team
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In general the post of Lambert don't convince me. I hope to have some time to try the exact things he say this week, but I am veeeeeery skeptical that Therodos can expand well UW for example. |
| Worthy Heroes - UW Expanded | |
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| dyslexicfaser | Dec 16 2015, 12:49 AM Post #13 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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It's okay. I mean, they have real problems fighting any UW nation, but they can expand with a few Kourete or spectral losses here and there against indies. There's just not a lot of reason to expand UW instead of heading right for the shoreline; Therodos can't recruit anything except Melias and indies down there, and they expand significantly better on land anyway. |
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| Lambert_S | Dec 18 2015, 11:22 PM Post #14 |
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Thed Dude
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W9 has served me well by compensating for the single attack and defesne drop from beserk, always going with a minor earth to help with fatigue, though it does suffer against Thunder strike or fireball barrages. I don't think it's the only way to do it, but I'm only relaying what has served me well. UW expansion when I've tested it and done it in games has generally gone fairly well, and though it's not where you want forts getting the cap circle for rescources helps produce more Kourettes. I haven't tested as much expanding on land with spectrals, but find that too many indies have a H1 leader, and banish does unpleasant things to them. |
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| suppenit | Jan 1 2016, 11:58 PM Post #15 |
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*Spicy* Crew
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I play MP game as Theo and confirm all points of Lambert. - decent expansion with spectres? Check. - W9 bless for spectral sacred freespawn to make them untouchable in melee? Check. Forget about alive Kouretes, Theo relies on spectral chaff and mages in middle game and in early game Theo is weak and badly needs infrastructure - added fatigue doesn't matter. - Sloth3 and dumping all death income to Spectral Philosophers? Check. - trash scales for popkill nation and depend on Luck+Turmoil? Check. - a ton of gems early thanks to massed site search? Check. A few points of me: - you want to forge all the day and night. Easy access for hammers and 2-gems Fire, Earth, Water and Air items are one of national powers. - as Theo you want to dump all gold available to infrastructure early: spectres spawn in forts only and spawning rate is doubled for fort+temple combos; - you want awake pretender with death to sitesearch for death sites early; - you want decent bless for pretender to enhance both mages and spectral freespawn; I took 9W4F4E4D1S1B awake rainbow, but 9F, 9B or 9D instead of Water can be great as well. He will never fight so low astral doesn't matter and we really want it for forging crystal matrices/coins/shields. - you want strong dominion: spectral spawning rate depends on it; - you want coastal fort in first year: if you have found decent death income it is better to create revenant (who is non castable UW) to spam philosophers to leave pretender for sitesearch and rituals job; - Construction6 for 2-gems lanterns (and Construction2 for 2-gems Owl Quills) are a boon if proper gemtype amassed; - you want to use Melia as thugs when attack time comes. With just frostbrand and one reinvigoration item (Girdle of Might or Boots of Messenger) every one Melia rocks vs small to moderate PD. Earth Melias the best thanks to Ironskin. Air and Water Melia use Barkskin (or Protection if used by two or three) instead. - in middle game massed spectres + Quaqmire + Grip of Winter + Relief + Heat from Hell (F1 Kaiberos + Helm of Flame or Skull of Fire + Phoenix Power) + Rigor Mortis (Revenant + crystal matrix + 2 slaves + Skull Staff) are truly devastating vs unexpecting opponents in decisive battles, and it is easy to be unexpected for UW nation. - later Rain of Stones is extremely powerful vs human nations. |
| aka olli!, bumpjack | |
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