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Thugging Against Asphodel; Can it be done?
Topic Started: Apr 12 2016, 11:01 PM (1,232 Views)
joansam
*Spicy* Crew
Hey guys, I'm currently in a casual MP game with some friends, playing as MA Pythium. I'd like to be able to use Harbinger thugs against someone playing Asphodel, but how does a thug fight those manikins? Awe is useless against them, mistform will be popped by the vines, which are magic weapons, defense is almost useless because they each have 4 attacks, and the vines cause a ton of fatigue if they pass the MR check. The only thing I can think of doing is hoping that I can find some N sites with indy mages and eventually forge a few vine shields, and even with those I don't know if I'd be comfortable. Does anybody have another way?

Note that I'm well aware of Pythium's strength against Asphodel, namely its holy communions. But I'd like something more mobile than a big army of legionnaires and mages as well, to sow chaos in his rear.
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dyslexicfaser
*Spicy* Crew
I don't know what Harbingers could do to win, honestly. If you could stack some damage shields on, that might do the trick, but that's more of a fire or astral thing.
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alexsa2015sa
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Twiceborn Abodai
Thugging against manikins is generally Very Bad Idea. Basically, they are one of the worst kind of chaff for thugging against, as when you can't kil them fast enough, you unevitably lose your troops - and that's without any kind of specialized counters. If you use big enough group of thugs it works - but the cost kind of defeats the point, and as soon as it becomes possibe to run into mage with Drain Life or wielder of a Standard of the Damned it completely stops being worth the effort - you can't expect your thugs to survive these encounters without being exceedingly lucky.

Though there is one tactic which probably could work - give thugs Charcoal Shield (if you can find/make some) and add MR, regeneration/reinvigoration and armor, so they won't die easily. As soon as you can keep away from Drain Life users, they can pay off. Blood Vengeance of Angels of Fury probably could also work, if not for 13-14 MR of stronger freespawns. which finely negates this ability, but they are better than Harbringers in melee - these are better off blowing their horns from distance, despite the AOE damage to your own troops.

It isn't good idea to use Phoenix Pyre at all, since Manikins do fatigue damage first, so Archangels aren't good for thugging.
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jBrereton
Dom 5 Beta Team
Why not use packs of Harbingers to cast things like Living Clouds against his troops? Any of them can cast it with 3 gems.

I don't know why you're so keen on thugging them, to be honest. Is it after a guide or something?
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
Aren't lifeless beings immune to the sleep vines? The inspector says Sleep Vines have the 'Affects Health' tag, which I understand as 'does nothing to lifeless'.

If that is the case, I guess you could try golems. But at 30 pearls to summon, that's going to be very expensive.
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Ohlmann
Dom 5 Beta Team
Go lifeless or go home. The manikins are specialized in shredding thugs and SCs, outside of the lifeless one. Trying to thug anything who isn't lifeless is about as intelligent as using fire pillar against abysia - sure, perhaps with enough overkill you can have some success, but that won't work in a cost effective way.
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joansam
*Spicy* Crew
Thanks guys. jBereton, I'm not following a guide, I was just trying to see if it could be made to work, partially because I'd like the mobility and partially because I was curious - I couldn't think of any effective ways to kit an anti-manikin thug. Living Clouds would probably be a much better approach. Actually, lifeless thugs are a great idea, unfortunately I don't have access to them except for Golems, which I don't want to research.

I appreciate the thoughts! I'm glad to see I hadn't overlooked some crucial item or something. Holy communions and some Living Clouds it is, then.
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
Grand Master + some witch hunter slaves + rings of fire resist (or just let the witch hunters die) = Fire Storm.

Harbinger + Crystal Shield (or master matrix) = Mass Flight (to hit the leadership)

Harbinger + Master Matrix = Wrathful Skies

Mass fire elementals (size 6 ones) tear vines to shreds

Falling Fires is even a good choice due to their low prot and blobbiness

It is also one of the few times a pen-boosted Unraveling is ever a good idea

Flaming Arrows + mass xbows will clear them amazingly well, too.
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