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A Guide to Therodos - Telkhine Spectre; Crossposting from Steam!
Topic Started: May 6 2016, 09:19 AM (4,146 Views)
iSeenUB4
Maenad
Greetings Dom3mods forums!

I have been around the Dominions community since when it was at Shrapnel and kept updated around the scene by mostly lurking around. Nothing
much has changed for me aside that I do videos part-time and joined a couple of Steam Dom4 groups.

The new nation of Therodos has proved to be a really interesting subject for me and I ended up drafting a guide with my spare time. While originally
on Steam I have transferred it and cross-posted it to here to receive some feedback and hopefully update it with more information.

Original Guide can be found on Steam here: Therodos - Telkhine Spectre

**Work in Progress - Posting Guide and Formatting in progress**
**Jeebus the formatting looks horrible right now, I shall have to rework it**

The Telkhine Nation
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Introduction

The Telkhine nation is a new contender for the Early Ages of the Dominions universe. However I believe it is a fairly hard nation to use. Its advantages
on the other hand are quite enticing.

You have access to the best forgers of the Early Age. The Daktyl and the Kabeiros have paths and abilities such as Mastersmith and Forge Bonus that
provide you a variety of magical items to fit your needs. You also have access to a level 0 Skull Mentor in the form of their Spectral Philosophers,
which are essentially undead counterparts to Arcocesphalean Philosophers, with your negative scales of Sloth. They represent quite a very efficient
use of Death gems for the Research Points they provide. Their national spell, summon Telkhine, permits them to gain access to using the Telkhines in
late game, a powerful Chassis fit to take on Super Commander and Spellcasting Duties for your dying nation.

Therodos is essentially a Late Age (That starts in Early Age) Ermor, but unlike its undead counterpart, it still has access to living Mages.
In fact, they require gold like every other nation. Secondly, Therodos is essentially a land nation that starts underwater in my opinion. All your
underwater forts, save from your capital, will only have the Melia available to recruit. Your coastal forts on the other hand give you access to the
humans of Therodos. The Kabeiros are great forgers and capable battle mages. The troops, on the other hand, are pretty lackluster. Human sacred version
of your Kobyrant might be useful if you are running a major bless however it should be noted that its recruitment is limited at 2/turn therefore making
it hard to mass. Inland forts are like underwater ones, you can only recruit Melias in there.

The negative dominion and thus the negative scales taken will also catch your opponent's eye, both the AI and human players will not like having a
neighbour such as you. As your Dominion will leave the lands empty and dead like Ermor. Expect to be attacked early as well as having to face alliances.

This guide has videos:
Please check out the Video section for let's plays and videos and use this guide as a reference material to help you learn Therodos


Pretender Creation
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Chassis
Common pretender choices are towards immobile pretenders with a major bless or titan pretenders with minor blesses or my personal preference the Ghost
King. However I do believe that perhaps the Telkhine God-King would be viable in a Multiplayer setting, despite the high cost he works as a great super
combatant due to his foul vapour autocast and could potentially be an awake expander in the early game and then to summoning and other magely duties.

In the end the reasons for choosing a particular chassis as Therodos lies in two areas. You could afford an awake pretender to help you expand and also
gain a minor bless or you could have a sleeping immobile pretender with a major bless or two. Those scales are easily affordable due to the Dominion
of Therodos, the population kill incentives you to take negative scales as you cannot counteract the effect of the Dominion with Growth scales.

Scales

  • Dominion Posted Image

    The dominion needs to be at least 9, as the more candles your fortress has the more spectral infantry will spawn in that province. It also provides
    you minor Awe on your pretender which helps out for early expansion against independents.


  • Turmoil/Order Posted Image

    Turmoil 3 is a no-brainer, the dominion kill will deplete your provinces of population and thus render order useless.


  • Production/Sloth Posted Image

    Sloth 3 is beneficial to your spectral philosophers and also synergizes well with the population kill. Eventually when population reduces to abysmal
    numbers, the resources gained from a province will suffer as well. There used to be options to take sloth 1 or 2 due to the sacred not being limited
    to a couple in the previous patch, but this has been nerfed so sloth 3 is a no brainer at this point.


  • Cold/Hot Posted Image Posted Image

    Despite Cold 3 synergizing well with your nation, depending on your opponents in that game, it may be beneficial to head for Hot 3. Being underwater
    at start essentially leaves you unaffected by the penalty. But since your dominion kills everything why not add on a Cold 3 or Hot 3 scale to deter
    opponents from invading you?

    My personal experience in invading dominion kill nations with an extreme temperature scale is very unpleasant. You will need you gear yourself with
    a lot of Nature food producing items or gems in order to avoid starvation, moreover fighting in such lands are exhausting to troops with not
    appropriate fire or cold resistance.


  • Luck/Misfortune Posted Image

    The luck 3 scale is taken to counteract the turmoil 3, it will result in booms everyonce in a while. The events can provide a lot for Therodos. The
    national heroes are pretty terrific. You also have a lot of cross path spellcasters who can use the gems you get from the events. And more
    importantly it will provide you gold to build your precious coastal forts.


  • Magic/Drain Posted Image

    I personally believe that taking Magic 3 is best for Therodos, it gives you a lot of good events comboed with T3/L3 scales. It turns your spectral
    philosophers into research beasts. On the other hand, I also believe that Drain 1-2 is viable in shorter games or in other situations. As the Drain
    does give your spectral troops some additional magic resistance and also synergizes with your negative dominion. The former makes your troops more
    resistant to banishment and other spells and the latter makes it really annoying to invade you. However unlike Ermor, you have human mages and
    the drain will tax them quite heavily during battles. Drain 3 is definitely a no-no due to the fact that it unlocks horrible events that will
    result in gem loss. Some of the events unlocked by drain 3 take off a percentage of your laboratory gems, which in midgame can be equel to quite a lot.
Bless
Therodos has sacred units in the form of the Kobyrant, a major bless or two (or even triple) was justifiable before the nerf. Post-nerf, the Kobyrants
and their human counterparts are now limited recruitment therefore making it quite hard to mass.

Another unit to keep in mind for the bless would be the Melia, your sacred commanders recruitable in all forts. They are usually used for leading
Spectral troops around and casting minor buffs. However with a minor or even a major bless they can afford to be very efficient thugs.

Major Blesses Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
The most useful major bless in my opinion would be Nature, with Earth as a runner up and Water last. The regeneration from Nature turns your Melias
into self sufficient thugs as well as giving you the option of using Sacred Shrouds for Super Commanders later on. The Earth protection is useful as
well but most of its usefulness comes from the reinvigoration. Finally Water would come as a runner up for the last position, the Quickness is really
handy but will eventually exhaust your troops as for the bonus. Defence it is a valuable asset for thugging in general and extending the life of your
sacreds.

Minor Blesses Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
You could also go for an awake pretender and go for several minor blesses. Earth comes in as a a strong contender for a minor bless, the reinvigoration
it gives can beuseful both for your battle-mages (which are all sacred) as well as your thugs (fatigue is a thug killer). Water comes in as a close
second for the defence skill buff it provides. Lastly comes in Astral, mostly picked for magic diversity, astral permits us to give some much needed
Magic Resistance to your thugs.

Examples

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[SP - This build is used in our video series] Telkhine God-King - Awake SC and Forger
Dominion 9, Scales Turmoil3/Sloth3/ColdHot3/Death3/Luck3/Magic3
Magic Paths: Air 3, Water 2, Earth 4, Astral 5, Death 1

Once you have researched the first couple of levels of alteration and give him a helmet he is set to go. Check out the Video Section for the video
on using Demonax the Telkhine God-King!

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[MP - Blitz] Ghost King - Awake SC and Rainbow Mage
Dominion: 9, Scales: Turmoil3/Sloth3/ColdHot3/Death3/Luck3/Magic3
Magic Paths: Air 4, Earth 4, Astral 5, Death 4

Solid awake pretender, you could forge him an earth armor and he is set. Once you hit Mistform at Alteration 3 and Construction 4, your Ghost King
can be geared out to be a stealthy Super Commander.

For middle and end game, his cross paths give you the option to forge Crystal Shields and Elemental Starves which will provide a boost to your National
mages who have a lot of crosspaths as well. Rings of Wizardry are also in reach with the Astral Coin and Helm at Construction 6. His Death 4 lets you
summon Bane Lords or other Undead to help you gain more diversity and also in case you were unlucky at the Daktyl recruitment roulette, he will be
able to summon spectral philosophers.

[Draft Pretender] Stonehenge the Monolith - Dormat Immobile Pretender and Late-game Drop-bomb
Dominion 9, Scales T3/S3/CH3/D3/L3/M3
Magic Paths: E4, S6/9, D5/0, N9

Draft pretender for an idea that Nature 9 and Astral 9 would be enough to preserve your sacreds as well as produce efficient Thugs with your Sacreds
such as the Melia and possibly turning Telkhines into Super Commanders at a really cheap price due to the Regeneration and Magic Resistance. Or
you can provide him Death to avoid playing Daktyl Roulette.

Unit Review
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Spectral Infantry (Freespawn)
Your freespawns come in 4 different flavours: The Hoplite, the Peltast, the Archer and the Kobyrant. The spectral infantry spawns in provinces that
have forts and a positive dominion, higher dominion will increase the spawn of the spectral infantry. Ephors can also be used to "Call Spectres"
to summon more (However I find it rather uneffective). Everyonce in a while, there is a chance that a Spectral Commander spawns. He can be used
to ferry your troops around and can work as a commander in a pinch.

Unfortunately for Therodos, the freespawns are undead but have human morale (they technically don't know they are dead) meaning that they CAN route.
The spectral infantry will be led by a Melia most of the time in order to gain the inspirational boost. Another disadvantage of the spectral troops
is that their weapons are spectral as well, meaning that if the enemy succesfully passes a magic resistance roll versus the spectral infantry's
attack then the damage is null.

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Hoplite: Your frontline infantry. They come with line fighter which means that they can be put into formations without losing any morale. They are
quite decent and can hold their own, quite godly for early underwater expansion, however they will quickly fall off the efficiency scale by mid-game
as your opponent researches anti-undead spells such as Dust to Dust and Solar Rays. They will represent the bulk of your army until you can replace
them with summons.

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Peltast: Your javelineers. A spectral version of a light infantry with a javelin. They are fairly useful for early game expansion, it should be
noted that those guys can toss javelins underwater. Meaning that the unarmored underwater troops (without shields and armor most of the time)
will fall to the javelins. By mid-game, the peltasts retire to be part of raiding squads and will most likely not join the main armies.

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Archer: Spectral archers. They are definitely a good add-on to any Therodos army and helps perform underwater expansion at a crazy rate (Underwater
units are not equipped to deal with arrows) since they can shoot underwater. Their damage is also magical like every spectral weapon which is a
bonus however it also means that a successfull magic resistance roll negates the attack.

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Kourete: Your spectral sacreds. A weaker version of your live Kouretes, the low protection score and spectral weapon turns out to be quite
ineffective for this unit. Blessing them usually puts them in berserk and out of formation. This eventually leads to their death due to not being
part of the ranks and being seperated. I do not personally find them that useful.

Capitol-only Mages

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Daktyl - A1, W1, E2, ?1 (FAWED + FAWED%10), Mastersmith (1), 240g, Slow-to-Recruit, Sacred

Your dwarf mastersmiths, slow to recruit and fragile. Every Daktyl should be kept preciously, as they can be used to forge quite an extensive list
of items. The ones with Death are the most important ones, as they are used to site-search for Death gems and summoning Spectral Philosophers.
If you are really lucky and acquire a F1D1 Daktyl then you are able to forge Skulls of Fire (+1 booster).

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Hekateride - 2W, 3N, 2H, 1? (AWEN + AWEN%10), Awe (6), Inspirational (2), 365g, Slow-to-Recruit, Sacred

Expensive mage, however she will be able to cast high level battlefield enchantments for your thanks to her high water and nature magic. By mid-end
game, she can be used tolead magical units with morale thanks to her inspirational bonuses. Hekaterides with 4N can forge a Thristle Mace to put
her at 5N to cast Mother Oak if no big Nature Nations are in-game (Since you will most likely have Alt5 for Maws of the Earth). Alternatively
they can be used as quite potent mages for battlefield magic, with Bone Melter (AoE Soul Slay) and Falling Frost (Cold 3 dominion) the Hekateride
can prove to be quite effective. However due to their expensive and sparse nature you should field them with extreme care.

National Mages and Commanders

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Kabeiros - E1 1? (FAWE), Forge Bonus (1), Provides Resources (5), Increases Unrest (1), 125g, Sacred

The human mage of Therodos, note that he can only be recruited in coastal provinces. He is the workhorse of your nation, his forge bonus coupled
with a dwarven hammer provides you cheap 2 gem items such as frost brands and girdles of might. Their cross-paths permit them to forge a variety
of magical items as well. The Kabeiros is quite weak for an early age mage, however they are the only massable ones that Therodos can recruit
reliably.

Posted Image E2 - Those Kabeiros can used to field earth evocations, buffs and debuffs provided by researching
Alteration and Evocation. With Summon Earth Power and an Earth Boots they can be at 4E which makes them prime casters for any types of earth
spells: Earthquake, Curse of Stones, Maws of the Earth, Iron Bane. In a pinch they can also be used to summon Earth Elementals which work great
against human sized enemies due to their trample and mindless traits.

Posted Image E1F1 - These can be used to forge a variety of Earth + Fire crosspath items such as Fire Brands
and Shields of Gleaming Gold. Alternatively with an earth boots, they can be used to Summon Earthpower and then Magma Eruption to help out
with battlefield magic.

Posted Image E1A1 - Your quill forgers, with a dwarven hammer they are discounted at 2 air gems a piece which
is a great discount for the RP it provides. Later on, you can give them an earth boots and you will have a Rain of Stones caster.

Posted Image E1W1 - They can be used to forge cheap frost brands and amphibian shambler skin armor for your
other Kabeiros to go underwater if they need to. Alternatively they can be used to spam Frozen Heart on unsuspecting enemy thugs.

Posted Image
Melia - N1, ?1 (EAW), Inspirational (1), Awe (4), Decreases Unrest (1), 165g, Sacred

These lovely ladies will start off as your generals. With the innate +1 morale bonus coupled with Inspirational (1) they give your spectral troops
+2 Morale right off the bat. You can add on morale boosting items such as the Helmet of Heroes and the Horn of Valor to make your spectral troops
almost unroutable. Around the mid-game to end-game the Melias can start performing as really cost efficient thugs.

*More on the Thugging Section of this Guide*

National Heroes

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Axiocersa the Kabeiride - W2, N3, Inspirational (1), Awe (4), Decreases Unrest (5), Sailing, Holy 1

This national hero works as a buffed up Melia, her leadership bonuses are similar to your Melias but she comes with Sailing. It will be very
useful to use her as a leader by providing morale boosting items such as the Helmet of Heroes and Horn of Valor in order to make your spectral
troops resistant to morale shocks. Also her high paths in Water and Nature can work as a very good buffer for your army.

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Dexithea the Telkhine - A4(5), W3(4), E3, N3, Holy 3, Healer (2), Sailing, Mastersmith (1), Shapechanger

Dexithea was recently nerfed in the recent patch, which makes her probability to spawn only activate after a certain amount of turns has passed
by. Nevertheless, she is a powerful mage and also combatant similar to your Telkhines. With the added bonus of being a Healer, Dexithea is best
kept in the lab for healing, forging purposes and should only be deployed when really needed. It would hurt to lose such as powerful unit. Despite
being capable as a super combatants, her high magic paths would be the most beneficial using her as a battlecaster.

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Lysagora the Telkhine - A4(5), W3(4), E3, D2, N2, Holy 2, Healer (1), Sailing, Mastersmith (1), Shapechanger

Lysagora is Dexithea's sister and has also been affected by the nerf to the spawn chance. She is a powerful version of her sister with Death
included. She immediately provides you the option of opening up Death if it was previously unnattainable. Due to her unique nature and power,
and like her sister, you should only deploy her carefully. It would be more beneficial to use her as a battlecaster rather than a combatant.

National Summons

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Ephor - Sacred Reanimator, Cost: 7 Death Gems

The starting ephor will most likely become your prophet and set to Summon Spectres until he must move on to claim a throne. I believe that they are
not worth spending the Death gems on to summon compared to summoning a spectral philosopher. Every once in a while they will spawn thanks to the
dominion, their duties are mostly to call spectres in forts.

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Spectral Philosopher - Philosopher (2), Cost: 11 Death Gems

These guys are your research batteries, I cannot stress the fact that they are really important to Therodos. Despite the recent nerf, increasing
their costs, they are still powerful researchers. Summoning them essentially equals to forging a Construction Level 6 Skull Mentor (10 gems, 8 with Hammer).

Rationale:
A Skull Mentor provides you 18 research points for 10 Death Gems, whereas the Spectral Philosopher gives you a researcher for 11 Death Gems. The
Philosopher provides you 19 research points in a Sloth 3 and Magic 3 province, but more importantly it gives you a dedictated researcher (he's not
old unlike his Arcocesphaleon counterpart) to give research items to. So all in all, I believe that the Philosophers are an important summon for the
success of Therodos.

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Telkhine - F2, A3(4), W3(4), E3, D2, ?1 (FAWED), Mastersmith (1), Reaper (5), Sailing, Autocasts Telkhine Malediction (Foul Vapors) in battle
Spell: Summon Telkhine (Conj8) W5, A2 - 69 Water Gems.

Your late game summon, perhaps capable of rivaling Tartarian if you were able to steal the Gift of Health away. Having the insane mobility of Sailing
and the ability of being kitted into a Super Combatant leaves you a variety of options on how to mobilize those Telkhines. However due to it being a
late game spell at Conjuration 8, it is hard to have any practical experience in Multiplayer at the time. I shall add-on more information as it becomes
available.

Spells of Interest:
- Soul Vortex
- Earthquake
- Rain of Stones

Research Priorities
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Dominions 4 is an organic game, meaning that it is hard to plan and stick to specific research goals as everything is highly situational and can
change depending on who you are facing. However I believe that every nation has natural synergies to certain spells, I shall list all the research
goals that I deem valuable for Therodos.

Construction
Construction is a no-brainer for Therodos, the Kabeiros forgers and Daktyl mastersmiths benefit the most from this school. The brands and shields
acquired at construction 4 permits you to start thugging out your Melias to supplement your armies. Later at construction 6 and upwards, you gain
access to the Staff of Elemental Mastery which prove to be a very powerful booster for your multi-path low level magic paths. The possibilities of
gaining Golems (Pretender) provide another useful chassis to your Super Combatant needs.

Highlights
• Construction 2 provides you Owl Quills and Dwarven Hammers, you can gain a solid research boost by crafting montly quills at 2 air gems a piece
by equipping a Dwarven Hammer to a Kabeiros

• Construction 4 provides you Frost/Fire brands and vine shields which are fundamental items to creating Melia thugs.

• Construction 6 gives you even more research boosts and equipment. You can now forge the Lightless Lantern with a Daktyl which will provide an even
better research boost than the quills. Secondly you gain access to new shields: Gleaming Gold (Awe) and Lantern Shield (Will'O'Wisp) which are new
tools for thugging out your units.

• Construction 7 gives you the option of summoning Golems. Golems are great Super Combatants with their low emcumberance and mindlessness. The forge
bonuses and cheap magical items from Therodos synergizes well with this.

Alteration
Alteration is the buffing school. It is needed in order to give your freespawns some leverage in power. The etherealness is great right out of the gate,
adding on buffs such as protection, ironskin and liquid body helps them to gain even more standing power. Secondly, thanks to your Earth casters, alteration
also provides you Maws of the Earth and other debuffs such as Curse of Stones. Maws of the Earth (Earth Meld as well) is a perfect spell for Therodos, your
units are floating meaning that they will be unaffected by the Maws of the Earth so make sure to use this to your advantage.

Enchantment
Unlike most nations that research Enchantment for Flaming Arrows, that is not the case for Therodos. Enchantment provides a lot of utility to leverage
your freespawns on the battlefield as well as a replacement for them by mid-end game. Foul Vapors synergizes well with Therodos' spectral poison-immune
freespawns and spells such as Enliven Gargoyle, Claymen and Terracota Soldiers can be cast by your Daktyls and Kabeiros.

Conjuration
Conjuration is taken in order to gain access to Summon Earthpower early game. It is an important buff for your mages, as it provides not only +1 Earth
but also Reinvigoration which helps you cast more before your mages pass out from the fatigue. Conjuration also helps by providing access to thugs
chassis and summons. Eventually you will want to research Conjuration for the end game for Telkhines and elemental royalty. In battle the summon Elementals
spells is powerful, ideally when you decide to you use. You want to go overkill to overwhelm the enemy. The Earth Elemental is particularly excellent at
trampling human nations.

General Strategy
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As a general strategy you should respect the following guidelines:

- Establish as many coastal forts as you possibly can
- Interact and conduct diplomacy with your neighbours to avoid getting ganged on
- Recruit mages as often as possible off your capitol province
- Investing in finding Death Sites or gems for summoning Spectral Philosophers is always a good investment

Early Game and Expansion Phase

Your starting expansion army is very good, those handful of spectral infantries can expand underwater with ease and also head onto the surface without
much harm. While it is highly possible to do turn 1 expansion with your starting army, it is safest to wait until the 2nd turn to know what indies you
are facing. In the scenario where you have taken a powerful awake expansion God such as the Earth Serpent, you should go for a turn 1 expansion.
[Except if you are planning to Turn 1 throne province expansion]

By the end of Year 1, you will want to have at least 12 provinces excluding your capital and at least one coastal fort. Coastal fortresses are CAPITAL
to Therodos' success in the mid-game and thus end-game. You will NOT benefit from staying underwater, as any forts that are not coastal (a coastal fort
is one province bordering a sea province) will not have anything to recruit except the Melia. Moreover due to your cap-only mages being slow to
recruit, you essentially will have half of the battle mages your opponents will be fielding, therefore it is of upmost importance to get a coastal fortress
up to start up your Forge factories and research.
Posted Image Posted Image
You should ideally be recruiting Daktyls every turn with a couple of Kouretes (if your gold permits) and save up gold for more forts. Ideally you want
a Daktyl with 1 in Death to be ready to summon Spectral Philosophers as you get the gems and another to sitesearch. Meanwhile for your research
needs, you should be bee-lining for Construction 2 at the very least to give you access to your precious Dwarven Hammers and also Owl Quills to help
out the abysmal research of Therodos. [At least until you can start summoning your Philosophers. Towards the end of Year 1, you should prepare your
sitesearchers. Make sure you have a Daktyl and a Hekateride ready by the start of Year 2 to go site-searching. You WILL NEED those magical gems by
mid-game as people start researching to counter your spectral infantry. So do make use of the diverse paths that Therodos has and find those magic sites.

Mid-Game

Multiplayer Games Tips:
If you are playing Multiplayer, you should ideally make peace with your neighbours and perhaps trade for more Death gems, as you will most likely have an
excess of Water and Earth gems.
Therodos wants to get as many death gems as possible and thus philosophers to catch up on research.

Mid-game Strategy:
By mid-game you should start to analyze your gems and your situation and plan your research accordingly. If you are somehow still at peace, you could
bee-line straight for Construction 4 or 6 in order to get your Melia-thug-factories going. Otherwise it may be wise to head towards Alteration 5 to
gain Maws of the Earth and other various buffs to bolster the survivability of your spectral troops. It is also noteworthy to try mention that Therodos
can cast Mother Oak if they get a 4N Hekateride, since you are already heading for Alteration 5. It is not a bad idea to attempt to get this nice global.

Ideally for mid-game, you would want at least 3 coastal forts with high dominion spawning freespawn enough for you to disregard large losses. One
advantage of freespawns is that even if a battle was a stalemate, you essentially lose 0 gold if all your commanders survive. So even though you lost
a battle, you are still inflicting economical damage to your enemy. With your harmful dominion and ermorian scales, it will be a pain for anyone to
siege your forts. As Therodian forts are not palisades but castles which take quite a big army to siege. Coupled with your dying dominion and death
scales, no army can confortably siege your lands without nature mages or supply boosting items
Posted Image Posted Image
Now is the time for Therodos to plan and use their stockpiled gems, Enchantment and Conjuration gives you a lot of options to summon a frontline that
can take some punishment. Take time and summon units that would help bolster your main armies, do not forget that you have buffs from alteration to
help you out. Moreover at Alteration 3 and Construction 4, it is a prime time for you to deploy your Melia thugs. Ideally you will want to be forging
like crazy with your Kabeiros to make use of their cheap 2gem items.

End-game

As late game approaches, you should have all the Throne provinces you conquered forted up and also with a high dominion which makes it unattractive to
siege. Your spectral infantry is pretty much used as Chaff and most of your armies will have summoned units that you planned for to replace your
troops by for late game.

Due to the insane amount of variables for late-game, I believe that Therodos should look onto those spells and keep their focus on building Super
Commanders and gain control of the Thrones. By now, your lands should be dead and very unattractive to siege so therefore you should be heading
the thrones with your kitted out combatants and casters.

Spells worth casting for Therodos:

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Elemental Royalty - Water and Earth Royalty at W5 and E5 respectively.

Therodos has a good shot of getting the Elemental royalties of Earth and Water, the high paths provided by the Daktyl and Hekaride permits Therodos
to forge their way to Earth 5 and Water 5. The elemental royalty can be kitted out as both Super Combatants and Battlefield mages capable of wiping
out whole armies.

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Summon Telkhine - W5, A2 and 69 Water Gems

As discussed previously in the Unit Review, you will eventually get to summoning your nationals which are very powerful units and are very versatile
in which-ever role needs to get filled. This spell is accessible by Therodos mainly by the Pretender or National Heroes. Otherwise you will have to
empower and forge boosters to reach the spell requirements.
Posted ImagePosted Image + Posted Image + Posted Image + Posted Image / Posted Image

Example:
A Hekateride with 2W and A1 will need boosters to get access to the national spell. With the Water Bracelet and the Robe of the Sea, she is now at W4.
Next we need one more level in Water and one in Air in order to be able to summon Telkhines. Our options are either empowerment or trading with other
options. If your pretender has taken Astral and can forge Rings of Wizardry you can bypass empowerment and trading and gain access to your National
summon. Another option is to use the Staff of Elemental Mastery which requires A4E4 or W4F4

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Golems - S3, E2 at Construction 7 for 30 Astral Pearls. S2

Only accessible if you have invested in Astral and Earth for your pretender. Golems are viable and strong super combatant chassis that can be outkitted
with the items forged by Therodos for cheap. Alternatively, giving an Earth Coin and an Starshine Skullcap to the Golem puts him at S4 letting him cast
Turn 1 Astral Tempest on your enemy with 4 Astral Pears. The option to teleport with a Starshine Skullcap provides him extra mobility over armies and
should not be ignored.

Vengeful Water - W7, Global Enchantment at Thaumaturgy 7, 70 Water Gems

This is accessible to Therodos if you have Rings of Wizardry and had a lucky roll on a W4 Hekateride. With the Water Bracelet, Robe of the Sea and
the Ring, she will be directly at W7. Otherwise the other option of getting to it would be to summon a Water Queen and have her cast the global
enchantment with the boosters.

Thugging and Synergies

Synergies and Combos
Your spectral troops and readily accessible Earth and Air Kabeiros, and Water & Nature Hekaterides give you access to a few powerful spells that synergises
well with the Floating and Ethereal nature of your freespawns.

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- Foul Vapors N3W1 at Ench5 for 1 Nature Gem

You have undead units and your Melias have natural Poison Resistance thanks to having 1 in Nature. Your troops are immune to poison, and you can recruit
Hekaterides that can cast it as they get out of the fort. It synergizes well with the Spectral Infantry and is a definitely good strategy against armies
who do not have Poison Resistance.

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- Earthquake - E4, Evocation 5 - 3 Earth Gems

Castable by your E3 Daktyls after Summon Earthpower, alternatively gearing out an E2 Kabeiros with Earth Boots (+1E) will also make it castable. Its
a spell that affects the whole battlefield and destroys human armies if done properly. Thanks to "Floating", a trait that all your Spectral Infantries
have, they are immune to Earthquake and thus unaffected. Adding a Ring of Levitation is mandatory to allow the mage to survive.

- Rain of Stones - E3, A1, Evocation 7 - 1 Earth Gem

This spell counters human armies like no tomorrow unless they script a Turn 1 Fog Warriors. This is a direct counter to Communions and moreover it
synergizes well with the Spectral Infantry due to them being Ethereal. I would not recommending risking Daktyls to cast this spell. Instead you
would be best to give the job to disposable Kabeiros with an Air pick. They would be able to do it on Turn 2 by casting Summon Earthpower on the first
turn with an Earth Gem (Making him into E2A1), and then casting a Turn 2 RoS with another couple of Earth Gems. As him being at E2 permits him to use
two earth gems, so one is used to make him into E3 (just for this spell cast) and the other is used for the spell requirement of one gem.
Note that this tactic should be used with multiple E1A1 Kabeiros as the mage will definitely go unconcious after casting this spell.

- Grip of Winter is another battlefield enchantment that is usable by Therodos.

However it is situational, depending on your enemies and your scales you may not really benefit from using Grip of Winter. Ex: Fighting Cold Resistance
Units such as Niffleheim

Thugging
I will attempt to give you a brief overview of thugging and provide you examples with every variety of Melia that Therodos can recruit.

Posted Image Posted Image

Thugging and Super Combatants are units that can perform specific tasks and they are commanders. Super Combatants are commanders capable of soloing whole
armies if equipped properly and scripted. Thugs have a more humble role where commanders specialize in certain roles. More importantly, using thugs is
only efficient when you can efficiently forge the items they need to perform their role.

The roles I intend to thug the Melias out are:

- Raiding
The ability for a Melia or two to go solo small province defense and raid the enemy provinces.

- Army Support
Your spectral troops' magical weapons have a disadvantage at times, mixing Melias in your armies provide an additional punch to your damage output.

- Anti-thug
Very specific role, these Melias are equipped to hunt down other Thugs and forgo defenses to go for high single damage.

Here a few important pointers I believe are essential to thugging out any unit:

- Layers of Defense

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Due to how the mechanics of the game is, even if you have a really high defense of 30, but you are facing about 20 attacks a turn. That number is
severely reduced down, meaning that even though an enemy with a weak attack skill of just 10 eventually will be able to hit you because you are rolling
at a lower defence due to it being the 20th attack. [For a visual example, take a thug and send him against a high province defense and press 3 on the
battle screen. Take note that the defence goes down as he receives more attacks in a turn]

Which is why layers of defense such as: [These are only a few examples]
• Awe
Awe will reduce the number of attacks you receive and thus a reduction in the penalty defense you receive is reduced.
• Etherealness Posted Image
Ethereal units only receive 25% of normal attacks. Magical weapons ignore this though.
• Mistform
Mistform will make all attacks deal 1HP unless it is a particularly high damage hit, which will then dispel Mistform.
• Regeneration Posted Image
Regeneration gives you HP back every round based on a percentage of the units' maximum HP.
• Fear Posted Image
The Fear forces enemies to do morale checks. Routing a squad is also another means of thugging against chaff

Posted Image
The Major Bless Effects of Nature provide your sacred commanders with 10% Regeneration which is powerful for thugging and SC purposes

- Fatigue Management
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Fatigue is important, very important, I have lost so many thugs and SCs because I have not managed fatigue properly. As fatigue increases for every
action based on the encumberance score and magic. You increase your chances of receiving a critical hit, this can often mean life or death for thugs
and SCs.

Therefore that is why spells such as Summon Earthpower and items providing reinvigoration such as the Girdle of Might and Boots of the Messenger are
often given to thugs and SCs for fatigue management.
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The Minor Bless effect of Earth provides reinvigoration, which is a great buff for any sacred thug or super combatant to manage their fatigue.
Note that this effect stacks with the reinvigoration that items provide.

-Efficient Thugging
Ideally for your thugs you want to be spending the least amount of gems possible for the work that they perform. A budget of about 7-10 gems is
a fair range for efficient thugging, some extreme examples can be close to 5 gems and some gold. You want Dwarven hammers to reduce your forging
costs as much as possible. Think of it on a timeline, you save 2 gems forging with a dwarven hammer, those two gems can represent two turns of
waiting if your income was at +1 only. You want to as little gems as possible to get capable thugs.
Posted Image + Posted Image
Your Kabeiros with the Forge Bonus of (1) and easy access to Dwarven Hammers (Forge Bonus 2) provide provide you a total of 3 gems discount on
every forge. And the crosspaths that Kabeiros have often provide a lot of forging options.

Thugging the Melia
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Your Melias come with a super layer of defense in the form of Awe (4). This Awe is four times more powerful than pretenders get for investing in
a 9 Dominion score. And the different types of crosspaths the Melia can acquire opens a variety of buffs.

Posted Image Posted Image
Standard Loadout: Frost/Fire Brand and Girdle of Might, optional: Magical gems

The Brands are the standard loadout kit for thugs intending to raid small province defense. It is also used for SCs when they are deployed
to deal with whole armies. The Girdle of Might provides a Reinvigoration bonus to your media for fatigue management purposes. Given your forge
bonuses, this is a total investment of 2 Water Gems and 2 Earth Gems for the Frost Brand and Girdle of Might respectively.

Situational: Shields and other items
Shields such as the Vine Shield add an additional layer of protection to the Melia against Morale ignoring chaff such as the Longdead.
Similarly the Charcoal Shield deals 7AN fire damage to the undead as unlike Awe your Vine Shield and Charcoal Shields proc on hit. The Vine
shield does not negate a hit then entangle, it rolls against your defense and then gets entangled. You still suffer the penalty.

Other items such as the Axe of Hate and the Elf Bane are items used to specialize in fighting other thugs. You will most likely be dual-wielding
weapons and hunting down thugs and avoiding armies as they are not geared to look after defense.

Now here is a list of what each Melia can cast in battle to improve their thugging abilities:
Posted Image • N1A1 Melias
These are your mistform thugs, with an air gem these ladies can cast mistform to provide an added layer of protection and take on quite
considerable amount of enemies. Comboes well with Rain of Stones

Posted Image • N1W1 Melias
With the ability of casting Liquid Body and maybe Quicken Self [Careful about the fatigue]. These Melias can fight underwater and on the
surface without much trouble.

Posted Image • N1E1 Melias
These Melias can buff up their protection with Ironskin and other Earth spells bringing her protection in the ranges of 20+ with an Earth
Gem she can also cast Summon
Earthpower for additional reinvigoration. Similarly they are resistant to Rain of Stones as it deals Physical Blunt damage and your protection
can reduce it.

The following blesses have worked very well with my experience with Therodos so far:

- Major Nature Bless
Posted Image Posted Image
The regeneration is great for thugging purposes, it also gives you the option to use Shroud of the Saints (at Astral gems a piece) to give any
chassis the regeneration bonus.

-Minor Blesses
Posted Image Posted Image
Earth: Reinvigoration is always handy for fatigue management and contribute to your thugs and their survival. The major bless for +5 added
protection seems to be a waste for Therodos.
Posted Image
Water: A minor water bless adds some Defence skills to your Melias and providing them another boost to their survivability even though it is
one of the weakest defences.

Countering Therodos
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Dominion: Your only option is either preventing them from coming onto the lands and an aggresive use of priests to preach the dominion
away is what must be done on the early game.

Spectral Infantry: They fall out of use as the game progresses forward, great expanders and decent fighters out of the gate as well
as freespawns. However as the game progresses forward research to deal with them is easier unlocked and accessed.

Spells such as Dust-to-dust, Solar Rays and Banishment are all counters to the spectral infantry. Otherwise a major Fire or Death bless,
or equipment that provides magical damage are also a good counter in the early game.

Thugs: Unless Therodos has a source of Astral mages (either through the pretender or finding one), the thugs are vulnerable to
being sniped by rituals. The lack of Astral on Therodos is an apparent weakness that prevents them from accessing the late game.

Attacking Therodos: Taking on Therodos' lands and capital are going to be hard if he is already established. As the Dominion kill
effect progresses forward, the lands become barren and supplies are scarce. You either preach away the dominion early and invest in
priests, or bring nature mages and supply generating items for those long sieges.

Economic Warfare: Therodos is always gold-hungry and their dominion kill does not help them as the game progresses forward. Their only
option is to invest into summons, raids and economic ritual spells are all viable tactics to impede on Therodos' transition into the late-game.

Video Section
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Posted Image
Link to Video
Dominions 4: EA Therodos SP Let's Play Guide
This is a series that is an add-on to the guide, I am playing a single-player game versus 7 impossible AIs as Therodos. The video shows
the basic tactics used by Therodos represented in the guide.

Posted Image
Link to Video
[Does anyone know how to include youtube links in the post?]
Dominions 4: EA Therodos Multiplayer Blitz
This is a series where I am using Therodos in a Blitz Multiplayer game. Note that blitzes are usually faster games (played in 3-5
hours compared to month-long games) and people tend to rush and get the game over with.

Posted Image
Link to Video
Dominions 4: EA Therodos SP with Growth Scales
This is the original let's play with Therodos, in an attempt to fix the gold and pop-kill problem by countering it with growth and
order scales. This attempt shows why it is not a viable strategy for Therodos as the Population-kill is stronger than the bonuses
provided by the Growth scales and cannot be countered.

**WIP**
This is a Multiplayer game hosted by the ClockwordHounds Steam group under the name of WaZarudo. It shows Therodos gameplay in longer
games, where you are permitted more time.

FAQ
Currently empty!

Author Information
Posted Image
Introduction
Hello I am iSeenUB4, part-time YouTuber and long time fan of the Dominions series. I have been playing Dominions since the first release
of the game, and have been on the Shrapnel forums and around a couple of other forums but mostly as a lurker.

This is my guide to Therodos, a new addition to the family of Dominions' nations. The unique theme and somehow mistaken identity of the
nation can result in very interesting strategies.

Why this guide?
Dominions itself is a very deep and vast game, multiplayer adds a whole new level of content to the already abundant single player of the
game. Therodos however tends to be tricky due to the fact that it is a popkill nation that requires gold to recruit its mages. This guide
helps to give pointers to see Therodos and their advantages that they have and how to employ these resources. Moreover it acts as a reference
sheet about interesting facts and comboes that I have discovered and performed as Therodos.

This under-appreciated and perhaps underpowered land nation that starts underwater has quite a few surprises and I hope it will motivate
people to try their hands out at Therodos and contribute their findings for discussion and updating this guide.

Posted Image
Otherwise, I hope you enjoyed reading the guide as much as I enjoyed writing it. Feel free to contact me whichever way your prefer.
Comment on the guide, send me a message on Steam
or drop by my YouTube Channel!

You can follow me on Twitter @iSeenUB4

Visit my YouTube Channel for more Dominions 4 content at:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMy0GU7-4VPuOZNxJnt3LlQ
Check out my YouTube Channel! We host Dominions, Strategy, Adventure (PointnClick) and Management LPs and Guides:
iSeenUB4's YouTube

Check out my guides:
EA Therodos
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iSeenUB4
Maenad
May 6th 2016:
- Reformatting in progress (Can anyone provide me some assistance, I am fairly horrible with the BBcode)
Check out my YouTube Channel! We host Dominions, Strategy, Adventure (PointnClick) and Management LPs and Guides:
iSeenUB4's YouTube

Check out my guides:
EA Therodos
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
the quote tags make this unreadable. No idea about content, except that it looks like a lot of words explaining general dominions concepts rather than anything thed specific
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KoboldLord
*Spicy* Crew
I'm not having any readability problems. Perhaps it is dependent on the reader's settings?

It kind of feels like the guide is missing a section. It goes from expanding with spectral troops directly to thugging out Melia and converting to gem troops, which leaves a fairly important gap in the game after expansion is over but before a full-scale gem economy is possible. What is Therodos supposed to be doing between these two points in the game? What do you use to kill things owned by other players before you have mid-game research already complete? How do you stop your neighbors from just kicking you and your dominion back into the ocean?

Maybe this is covered in the blitz video, but ten videos are around three hours long so haven't watched all of them.
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dyslexicfaser
*Spicy* Crew
Bluff your way into a NAP, since nobody really wants to face spectrals boiling out of every province they share with the sea?

EDIT: Also not having any problems reading the quote boxes, although they're not my favorite.
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iSeenUB4
Maenad
Rejakor,May 6 2016
11:25 AM
the quote tags make this unreadable. No idea about content, except that it looks like a lot of words explaining general dominions concepts rather than anything thed specific

The quote tags are the only work around the formatting, if you would perhaps try to go to Steam follow this link there. The Guide on Steam and maybe you would get access about the content.

Otherwise, I believe I did point out several research objectives and synergies with your armies and lab mage capabilities. I do not how thugging Melias and synergies with Thed's armies are not specific enough.

As for the formatting, I am willing to look onto suggestions to make it look better but without the quotations it looks even more horrible (using the basic skin)

Check out my YouTube Channel! We host Dominions, Strategy, Adventure (PointnClick) and Management LPs and Guides:
iSeenUB4's YouTube

Check out my guides:
EA Therodos
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iSeenUB4
Maenad
KoboldLord,May 6 2016
04:54 PM
I'm not having any readability problems. Perhaps it is dependent on the reader's settings?

It kind of feels like the guide is missing a section. It goes from expanding with spectral troops directly to thugging out Melia and converting to gem troops, which leaves a fairly important gap in the game after expansion is over but before a full-scale gem economy is possible. What is Therodos supposed to be doing between these two points in the game? What do you use to kill things owned by other players before you have mid-game research already complete? How do you stop your neighbors from just kicking you and your dominion back into the ocean?

Maybe this is covered in the blitz video, but ten videos are around three hours long so haven't watched all of them.

The coastal fortresses are your most important asset for the early to mid-game transition. That and site-searching. If you have 2 forts on Land, you will be really annoying to siege if the enemy doesn't have means to supplies.

For killing other players, you have to actively scout for F9 or D9 blesses and avoid those nations as they will most likely be highly efficient against your spectrals. Ideally you want to try to pick out someone who your spectral troops can leverage their advantage over.

During this transition you need to sitesearch everything and start making Spectral Philosophers + Kabeiros and your Coastal forts and get the Melia factory up by mid-game.

Otherwise you should be dealing with your neighbours through diplomacy
dyslexicfaser,May 6 2016
05:13 PM
Bluff your way into a NAP, since nobody really wants to face spectrals boiling out of every province they share with the sea?


I would love reformatting this post if I had some assistance
Check out my YouTube Channel! We host Dominions, Strategy, Adventure (PointnClick) and Management LPs and Guides:
iSeenUB4's YouTube

Check out my guides:
EA Therodos
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KoboldLord
*Spicy* Crew
Build mages and site-search, sure. That's definitely a thing that a player should do as Therodos.

What happens if your neighbors take a look at your dom9 popkill captured coastline and recognizes what is very obviously going to happen if they leave you alone to start accumulating candles right on their border? It certainly would be nice if all your neighbors are completely passive regardless of the provocation involved in building infrastructure on their border as a popkill nation, but what if they are not completely passive until you're ready to attack them?

Sacred rushes happen inside of year 1. What do you do if they happen to you? What do you do about common early-game research targets, like flaming arrows? Setting up NAPs is certainly appealing, but the other players can do diplo too, and Therodos is an inherently obnoxious and destructive neighbor.

Pre-nerf, the sacreds were at least a credible threat of being a dangerous target. But now, what does Therodos have very early to defend with, so as to not just be a bunch of free coastal provinces?
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iSeenUB4
Maenad
KoboldLord,May 6 2016
09:15 PM
Build mages and site-search, sure. That's definitely a thing that a player should do as Therodos.

What happens if your neighbors take a look at your dom9 popkill captured coastline and recognizes what is very obviously going to happen if they leave you alone to start accumulating candles right on their border? It certainly would be nice if all your neighbors are completely passive regardless of the provocation involved in building infrastructure on their border as a popkill nation, but what if they are not completely passive until you're ready to attack them?

Sacred rushes happen inside of year 1. What do you do if they happen to you? What do you do about common early-game research targets, like flaming arrows? Setting up NAPs is certainly appealing, but the other players can do diplo too, and Therodos is an inherently obnoxious and destructive neighbor.

Pre-nerf, the sacreds were at least a credible threat of being a dangerous target. But now, what does Therodos have very early to defend with, so as to not just be a bunch of free coastal provinces?

Definitely, that is one thing is great concern. I have to admit my Steam Group is fairly passive and I haven't particularly experienced Triple Blesses Rushes.

From my experience versus Niffleheim running a E4N9 in a Blitz and playing Therodos in a Longer game (with horrible paths on a GK):

- I had to use my Ghost King as an SC to deal with the Frost Giants, your troops cannot poke a hole into them. The Sneaking was a great help, Mistform with Ethereal was enough.

- Being Underwater and having amphibious troops is definitely an advantage, avoid armies and raid as long as you possibly can.

- TNN ran a F9 bless in the long-game, he immediately kicked me off the land. I had to relocate to another continent with Xilbaba who was friendlier and a fan of Therodos and let me establish a fort coastal province (Got lucky)

- Use your coastal fortresses to deter the enemy from moving his death stack onto yours, its hell to siege Therodos without anything to deal with the dominion.

- For rushes from Humanish or Elite nations I would suggest going straight for Alteration. Not only it provides Earth meld and Maws of the Earth but also buffs for your Pretender and Melias to perhaps deploy earlier.

- Although I have not faced Flaming Arrows yet (My last games head to deal with non-archer nations and Rlyeh). I believe using Storm will mitigate the damage up to some extent and coupled with Foul Vapors it should help break their archer squads.

- Foul Vapor and Poison works wonders with Therodos so far, it may be handy to cast to break Glamour and get through elite troops. Even if your army gets wiped, any unit afflicted with Poison without resistance will get the full damage at the end of the combat.

Pre-nerf, with a Major Bless and a minor one I believe you can slowly accumulate the sacreds in the cap to help out. However it is an advantage that results from planning blesses for Thugs and shouldn't be your main focus.

Lastly, I do believe that people view Therodos as a weakened Lemuria. You SHOULD deal with it by mid-late game but yet who wants to deal with pop-kill nations
Check out my YouTube Channel! We host Dominions, Strategy, Adventure (PointnClick) and Management LPs and Guides:
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Check out my guides:
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TheSHEEEP
Tartarian
Very good guide, thank you.
All of that seems fitting, especially the part that says not to rely on the sacred dancers after the recent nerf. Even without your dwindling income, recruiting only 2 per turn makes them almost completely useless.
I recruit a few when I got a lucky $$$ event, but otherwise, gold is better invested into forts, labs and temples.
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KoboldLord
*Spicy* Crew
iSeenUB4,May 6 2016
09:30 PM
KoboldLord,May 6 2016
09:15 PM
Build mages and site-search, sure. That's definitely a thing that a player should do as Therodos.

What happens if your neighbors take a look at your dom9 popkill captured coastline and recognizes what is very obviously going to happen if they leave you alone to start accumulating candles right on their border? It certainly would be nice if all your neighbors are completely passive regardless of the provocation involved in building infrastructure on their border as a popkill nation, but what if they are not completely passive until you're ready to attack them?

Sacred rushes happen inside of year 1. What do you do if they happen to you? What do you do about common early-game research targets, like flaming arrows? Setting up NAPs is certainly appealing, but the other players can do diplo too, and Therodos is an inherently obnoxious and destructive neighbor.

Pre-nerf, the sacreds were at least a credible threat of being a dangerous target. But now, what does Therodos have very early to defend with, so as to not just be a bunch of free coastal provinces?

Definitely, that is one thing is great concern. I have to admit my Steam Group is fairly passive and I haven't particularly experienced Triple Blesses Rushes.

From my experience versus Niffleheim running a E4N9 in a Blitz and playing Therodos in a Longer game (with horrible paths on a GK):

- I had to use my Ghost King as an SC to deal with the Frost Giants, your troops cannot poke a hole into them. The Sneaking was a great help, Mistform with Ethereal was enough.

- Being Underwater and having amphibious troops is definitely an advantage, avoid armies and raid as long as you possibly can.

- TNN ran a F9 bless in the long-game, he immediately kicked me off the land. I had to relocate to another continent with Xilbaba who was friendlier and a fan of Therodos and let me establish a fort coastal province (Got lucky)

- Use your coastal fortresses to deter the enemy from moving his death stack onto yours, its hell to siege Therodos without anything to deal with the dominion.

- For rushes from Humanish or Elite nations I would suggest going straight for Alteration. Not only it provides Earth meld and Maws of the Earth but also buffs for your Pretender and Melias to perhaps deploy earlier.

- Although I have not faced Flaming Arrows yet (My last games head to deal with non-archer nations and Rlyeh). I believe using Storm will mitigate the damage up to some extent and coupled with Foul Vapors it should help break their archer squads.

- Foul Vapor and Poison works wonders with Therodos so far, it may be handy to cast to break Glamour and get through elite troops. Even if your army gets wiped, any unit afflicted with Poison without resistance will get the full damage at the end of the combat.

Pre-nerf, with a Major Bless and a minor one I believe you can slowly accumulate the sacreds in the cap to help out. However it is an advantage that results from planning blesses for Thugs and shouldn't be your main focus.

Lastly, I do believe that people view Therodos as a weakened Lemuria. You SHOULD deal with it by mid-late game but yet who wants to deal with pop-kill nations

Thank you, that helps somewhat. I think it should be rewritten into the main body of the guide, though, along with recommended strategies to deal with other common early-game gambits. The first war is the most important one in the game, and the one where a guide is the most useful since the decision space is relatively low for all players. I am also not at all confident that it is a good idea to hang the entire game on a single pretender or hero, since single units have an unfortunate tendency to die in stupid ways to things that should not have been dangerous.

I'm not really sure why people are hesitant to kill off popkill nations, actually. It isn't like they reciprocate. A NAP with one of them just means they get to inflict economic damage and you can't retaliate.
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TheSHEEEP
Tartarian
KoboldLord,May 7 2016
03:10 PM
I'm not really sure why people are hesitant to kill off popkill nations, actually. It isn't like they reciprocate. A NAP with one of them just means they get to inflict economic damage and you can't retaliate.

Easy, people want other people to at least have some modicum of fun. Usually ;)
I mean, how much fun is it going to be if everyone just kind of auto-attacks popkill nations as soon as they see them?

Plus, even if you are stronger, war is always costly, especially so early in the game.

And in the case of Therodos, how will you siege them? UW? With a constantly growing army of defenders even while under siege? Aren't there more worthwhile targets?

And it's not like you cannot do something against the popkill. Use priests. In a current game, I even reached out to neighbors, being open about the popkill (which is rather low for Therodos, tbh) and offered some help in getting counter-temples setup. I guess it is just even more important for popkill nations to be a good neighbor ;)

Also, being friendly with a neighboring popkill nation gives you one hell of a buffer zone.

I can see why all of that would be less important later in the game, when it is really about winning (or dying in a glorious blaze of whatever element you got available).
But early on, at least if there are more easy targets? I don't know.
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KoboldLord
*Spicy* Crew
TheSHEEEP,May 7 2016
07:06 PM
And it's not like you cannot do something against the popkill. Use priests. In a current game, I even reached out to neighbors, being open about the popkill (which is rather low for Therodos, tbh) and offered some help in getting counter-temples setup. I guess it is just even more important for popkill nations to be a good neighbor ;)

Every otherwise-useless unforted temple I have to drop to hold off a popkill nation's dominion is 400 economic damage they have inflicted on me. Gold is precious in the early game, and that 400 gold could have been three mages or forty archers or blockers. Every priest I recruit could have been a mage, or if I have a conveniently placed useless unforted temple then the otherwise-useless indie priests are still about 1/3 of a mage each. These costs apply at the point in the game where they hurt most, and if I don't pay them then I get to enjoy geometrically escalating economic damage throughout the game.

Becoming a neighbor with a popkill nation later in the game isn't necessarily as bad, assuming they aren't running away with the game due to too many neighbors being inexplicably passive. Once gold-recruit troops are in less demand, I can often afford a luxurious carpet of unforted temples, or spam blood sacrifice if I have access.

I suppose, as you say, Therodos can fork over a massive tribute to bribe their neighbors into leaving them alone, hoping their neighbor spends the tribute on temples instead of troops to kick Therodos back into the water. Maybe that's a good plan in this case.

I don't buy the fun argument at all. By picking a popkill nation, a player makes an intentional choice to passively inflict economic harm on their neighbors with their popkill ability. The other players are not morally obligated to not react to this intentionally inflicted damage. If the popkill nation's player doesn't have fun dealing with their neighbors' attempts to defend themselves, then they can always find another sort of nation that they enjoy more.
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iSeenUB4
Maenad
TheSHEEEP,May 7 2016
09:41 AM
Very good guide, thank you.
All of that seems fitting, especially the part that says not to rely on the sacred dancers after the recent nerf. Even without your dwindling income, recruiting only 2 per turn makes them almost completely useless.
I recruit a few when I got a lucky $$$ event, but otherwise, gold is better invested into forts, labs and temples.

Thanks TheSHEEEP! I'm glad that you like the guide and agree to this point.

Post-nerf I cannot find a single way to mass those guys, even if you recruit them without fault since Turn 1. One thing that I have not attempted though was to mass the human-sacreds. However I found that the lack of the Amphibian trait doesn't make them as mobile as your Kouretes.

KoboldLord,May 7 2016
03:10 PM
Thank you, that helps somewhat. I think it should be rewritten into the main body of the guide, though, along with recommended strategies to deal with other common early-game gambits. The first war is the most important one in the game, and the one where a guide is the most useful since the decision space is relatively low for all players. I am also not at all confident that it is a good idea to hang the entire game on a single pretender or hero, since single units have an unfortunate tendency to die in stupid ways to things that should not have been dangerous.

I'm not really sure why people are hesitant to kill off popkill nations, actually. It isn't like they reciprocate. A NAP with one of them just means they get to inflict economic damage and you can't retaliate.


Glad it helped you a bit, I will definitely include this in the main section for the next revision of the guide.

While I did mention to use your Pretender as an SC, I never said to hang on your pretender for a SC career, he is there to defend you against invasions with your high Dom score. Later on he will retire to the lab for rituals and such. The high 4-minium paths usually taken can lead you to elemental royalty for late game. I usually create the pretender in an attempt to gain more magic diversity or to forge boosters.

Taking the GK into example, you can use him to forge and summon bane lords and spectres to use as chassis. By being E4 and S5, you are +2S away from forging the Rings which are pivotal to path boosting. Which is easily done with an Earth Coin and a Starshine Skullcap.
The Staff of Elemental Mastery (E4A4) version is also attainable as soon as you reach Cons6, with your discounted Air and Earth gems you most likely have accumulated quite a few by midgame.

Early on, you have an easy access to A2 Daktyls, you could craft an Air Booster and give him that. Not only the Daktyl can now relieve the booster forging from your Pretender (Recall Mastersmith?) but you could also field the Daktyl to cast Storm which could potentially be a counter against a flying army or an attempt for your Daktyls (all at A2) to Thunderstrike (Also I would not recommend it)
Lategame the E4 and A4 gives you access to Air Queens and Earth Kings by forging just one booster or even by using the Staff itself.

Of course, you could take an Immobile pretender and make him Dormant and get access to 2 major blesses. However I have not experimented with it so far. On paper, it could make your sacreds (given they are unmassable) into shredders and then translate into powerful blessings for your Melias and Thugs. However you lack access to an easy way to Sacred Shrouds unless you want to dedictate that role to your pretender
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Maenad
Kobold let me try to show you how a game has progressed and hopefully it help you a bit more about pop-kill nations in MP.

Posted Image

I originially expanded into 1F. then I got my ass whooped and kicked back into the Sea by TNN who was running a F9 blessing. As well as gotten a few provinces stolen by Ulm at C. as they were running a F9 blessing as well. Ulm was busy dealing with another land nation and limited diplo was done. Note that it is a wraparound map so 2F is the other side. I had expanded on 2F and then got kicked back into the sea (Fort was 1 turn to completion away sigh)

Afterwards TNN convinced Rlyeh at A to attack me and I ended up most of the game into a war with Rlyeh which eventually was going to be won but Xilbaba had taken thrones and ended the game early. This is due to the advantage of freespawn vs cap-only recruits.

I have expanded into province B and then politely exchanged it back to Hinnom for 200g due to it being in his Cap-ring, I proceeded to signing up an NAP with him and he ended up being killed by TNN eventually.

Meanwhile at D. Atlantis was more than willing to sign as NAP and focus on land provinces instead. Meanwhile at F Xilbaba was running a triple bless mainly for griefing, so he had a horrible expansion. However after having talked to him, he did confess he was a fan of Therodos and asked me to exchange one of his Cap-ring provinces for an NAP.

TL:DR
The game resulted into me fighting Rlyeh underwater and the land nations fighting themselves for a long time. We cannot discard the fact that being a pop-kill nation and underwater makes you really unattractive to attack.
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