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EA Yomi - Research is fun-damental; One idea on how to play Yomi
Topic Started: Jun 13 2016, 08:30 PM (5,017 Views)
Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
My experience with dom now is that your dom will sit in your borders because of how province connections + candle spread mechanics work. A big investment into temples will lead to your border + 1 province deep into enemy lands dominion radius. This changes with very large empires, but not enough to really hurt the mechanic.

I feel like the best way to leverage chaos power is to try to drop unrest spells into provinces where you expect battles to occur, the same way Niefelheim uses Wolven Winter in midgame onwards.

You're also far more likely to target someone if they have turmoil. Not exclusively, but enough to shift a calculation.

I also tend to treat oni as either ghostwall chaff or defense-only units due to how poorly they perform without unrest/turmoil boosting their stats. Which naturally means i'm going to be relying on summons, research, etc, for offensive power.

The exception to how dom works is bloodsac nations, which can still push, but yomi is not one of those.
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
Quote:
 
Buffed Shikome sounds interesting. I don't think I've ever tried to mass them before.


They cost gems that are valuable to you in many senses so they are annoying to mass but you get a fair few for your gem expenditure. They're sacred and wield dual magic weapons, and you have native earth magic to buff their prot. They're not a vanhere, but they are very, very useful. Enough that if you took a w9 bless solely for the shikome, I would not say that was a bad decision.

Quote:
 
A3 E6 with Dom 5 Turmoil 3 Prod 0 Heat 1-3 Growth 3 Luck 3 Mg 1-3


This is a solid build for three reasons. 1. Solves expansion singlehandedly. 2. Gives you air magic for air gems for your national air casters, which make everything about your nation instantly better. 3. Can drop Rain of Stones several times, which it is functionally immune to.

I'd take a point out of prod (or two) and push the air up to 4, though (as you mention later). I'd also take Sloth over Heat, and mag3 as mandatory (sorcsorcsorcsorcsorcsorc). A huge advantage of the build is it is steadily powerful throughout the game and doesn't rely on intricate booster-forging into summons or sacred units that are only relevant for certain periods (like a shikome bless). A4 is important because it enables Fog Warriors, which is huge for any nation, but especially those like Yomi with naturally tough or killey units who benefit from it a lot.

Quote:
 
I prefer an A4 E3 Dom 9! Turmoil 3, Sloth 3, Heat1 Growth 1, Luck 3, Magic 3.

I like ravens feast used with Raiding...


Ravens feast isn't a great spell, imo. It is a waste of air gems for a nation that can use them extremely effectively (dai tengu (+booster) = mass flight or fog warriors) but needs a big treasure trove to actually unlock that capability on any sort of reasonable scale. Setting up the circumstances (pop depletion) is also a lot of trouble and wasted troop turns, especially if you own or want to own the provinces you're doing it in. For air nations needing D gems it can be a thing, but yomi is a death nation needing air gems.

I don't think a low-earth earth snek is a good idea as even if you can manage the expansion (which is totally doable), you're giving up a lot of earth-utility (and EBDW, potentially) for only a bit of scales - as the earth snek starts at e2 so it is comparatively cheap to get up to 6.

You agree with me about the Sloth instead of Heat bit, though. It's painful to lose the bandits, and ideally you want good prod, but it's not as valuable to you as gold is.

Quote:
 
If you wish to go a high risk route, you can take a
D9 A2 E4 S4 D4 B2 awake ghost king. Fragile, effective.


That sounds hellaciously expensive, and i'm not seeing the usage you're getting out of some of the paths.
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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
Rejakor,Jun 22 2016
02:59 AM

Quote:
 
I prefer an A4 E3 Dom 9! Turmoil 3, Sloth 3, Heat1 Growth 1, Luck 3, Magic 3.

I like ravens feast used with Raiding...


Ravens feast isn't a great spell, imo. It is a waste of air gems for a nation that can use them extremely effectively (dai tengu (+booster) = mass flight or fog warriors) but needs a big treasure trove to actually unlock that capability on any sort of reasonable scale. Setting up the circumstances (pop depletion) is also a lot of trouble and wasted troop turns, especially if you own or want to own the provinces you're doing it in. For air nations needing D gems it can be a thing, but yomi is a death nation needing air gems.




I don't think a low-earth earth snek is a good idea as even if you can manage the expansion (which is totally doable), you're giving up a lot of earth-utility (and EBDW, potentially) for only a bit of scales - as the earth snek starts at e2 so it is comparatively cheap to get up to 6.

You agree with me about the Sloth instead of Heat bit, though. It's painful to lose the bandits, and ideally you want good prod, but it's not as valuable to you as gold is.

Quote:
 
If you wish to go a high risk route, you can take a
D9 A2 E4 S4 D4 B2 awake ghost king. Fragile, effective.


That sounds hellaciously expensive, and i'm not seeing the usage you're getting out of some of the paths.

3 air gems for 30+ death gems is a pretty good trade, despite yomi's need for air. Of all the nations, I think yomi executes it best.
I find pop depletion very easy to set up. I often raid to create unrest to boost the demons. I don't find bandits much more effective than indies as troops - except when pillaging. Ravens just completes the trifecta.

As for the ghost king - except for the d4, you can arrange the stats as you like. I like the snake better, but the combination of ethereal, and awe, and fear makes him an effective expander.
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Itwastuesday
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1, the ghost king racks up afflictions or dies and costs too much for what he does. He needs items and / or research or some random bear tribe kill him. What's the advantage worth the huge risk? His base cost is enormous.
2, I've tested raven feast on 1000 corpse provinces for 10 D gems. Yay.
3, The pillage bonus is worthless. You get the same result for 40 bandits and 40 militia.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
As tuesday notes, my understanding of raven feast is that you receive one D gem for each 100 unburied corpses. Raiding without sailing telegraphs your movements in a way dropping 3 Baleful Stars or Raging Hearts in the magic phase before your attack doesn't. It's also not a great idea to kill off several many thousand of the population of a province you want to take. Ergo, I don't think it's a very viable tactic. Pillaging in advance of a battle to create unrest when you don't have unrest remotes is reasonable, but you're doing it for the unrest for your demons.

Ghost King can expand, although awkwardly compared to an erf snek or other actual expander (certain enemies have a chance of KOing him, and he has to stick to his own dominion), but i'm more questioning the wide spread of paths most of which I don't see much utility in above national paths, or much utility at all (a2? B2 on a non blood nation, so your manypath GK is hunting slaves to make blood stones?). It seems like a 'eventually get access to all magic' pretender, which is a strategy I find deeply dubious in general. The amount of dropped scales and lesser expansion ability doesn't seem worth it.
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
The manual claims that Raven Feast gives half the square root of the number of corpses, and that matches my experience more closely.
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Glimbur
Guy who should know better
Erf Snek is pretty much always a solid option; part of my endorsement of Great Sage is because he's not the obvious choice. In my mind, either you're spending the gold on troops to expand better or the gold on mages to research better. Either way you want forts and labs all over; temples seem useful too but there are ways of generating unrest that might reduce your need for them (also your stealthy prophet can help there). You seem to like the Dai Tengu more than I do; he's great A access but costs 55 A gems and I do not know how long it takes to get that many. Much longer if you're making a lot of Owl Quills and Corpse Constructs.

I generally play with pretty passive people; last game I did not get into a real war until turn 23. That helps justify Owl Quills a bit; they have time to pay back the investment and so you want them early. If you are worried about a bless rush, then other paths should take a higher priority.

I'm open to changing my mind about researching Frighten early; it feels like a waste to have these D1 mages leading demons with nothing to cast but it's not a very good spell.

N2 on a pretender lets you make a Thistle Mace, which gets you decent access to N2 casters between indy shaman and Hanayas. N2 gets rings of regen, which are very nice for thug Dai Oni. How important that is depends on your focus.

I'm intending to do some more testing of raiding; I think it is a pretty obscure mechanic and I want to understand it better before I advocate, say, sending a small party of bandits with every major group of Oni to push unrest. It seems like that might be a decent idea, and could even help early expansion, but I want some testing before I endorse it in the guide.
Someday I'll be good at this game. Maybe.

Steam name is [RANCH]Baked Potatoe

Skype name is lloyd.c.griscom
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Itwastuesday
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You don't want to raid in early expansion, the oni troops do fine without any unrest and it demolishes the early income from those provinces you raid.

I don't think the raid command is useful even later, it's clunky to use against armies and against just PD the bandits might as well just attack.

I have considered a sage build many times though, it would be good to hit flaming arrows and skelespam faster. Then again it's also good to have land faster...

I've been thinking about the gozu mezu. It looks like a great unit and decent value for gems. Though I suppose there's never enough of them.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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dyslexicfaser
*Spicy* Crew
Itwastuesday,Jun 23 2016
05:40 AM
I've been thinking about the gozu mezu. It looks like a great unit and decent value for gems. Though I suppose there's never enough of them.

They look cool, but when would you want to grab them over Shura? Or Shikome I guess, but without a recruitable sacred a bless-shikome strategy just doesn't seem likely to work out for Yomi.
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Itwastuesday
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I'm not super impressed by the Shura, Yomi has thugs up the ass anyway, but not decent, tough heavy infantry.

Gozu Mezu are probably too hard to mass though, I forgot the spell needs D3.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
Itwastuesday,Jun 22 2016
04:00 PM
1, the ghost king racks up afflictions or dies and costs too much for what he does. He needs items and / or research or some random bear tribe kill him. What's the advantage worth the huge risk? His base cost is enormous.
2, I've tested raven feast on 1000 corpse provinces for 10 D gems. Yay.
3, The pillage bonus is worthless. You get the same result for 40 bandits and 40 militia.

Militia aren't stealthy
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Itwastuesday
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My point is that when you pillage, you get the same result with pillager troops and ordinary troops.
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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dyslexicfaser
*Spicy* Crew
Itwastuesday,Jun 23 2016
07:40 AM
I'm not super impressed by the Shura, Yomi has thugs up the ass anyway, but not decent, tough heavy infantry.

Gozu Mezu are probably too hard to mass though, I forgot the spell needs D3.

He's an ethereal bane lord, what's not to like?

It's not like you can afford dai oni for ALL your thugging needs.
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Glimbur
Guy who should know better
My favorite part of the shura is that he's naturally amphibious. He's also ethereal and armored, which is an unusual combination that makes him sturdier. Throw in the cold and fear auras and he's a pretty good thug without any gear. I like to put 2-3 together, overlapping auras is good times and they can all stack in one square which helps against melee units (but is suicide against Dust to Dust and other AoE's).
Someday I'll be good at this game. Maybe.

Steam name is [RANCH]Baked Potatoe

Skype name is lloyd.c.griscom
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Itwastuesday
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Well, a summoning of Gozu Mezu hits harder and has four times as much HP as a Shura, for 3 gems less. So of course you're equipping him somehow if you pick him over Gozu Mezu?

And if you're equipping him, you might as well use an Oni General? Who doesn't have fear or ethereal, but has magic and costs gold instead of D?
Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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