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Penetration, communions, MR; various things I have discovered
Topic Started: Oct 25 2016, 10:39 PM (1,434 Views)
Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
After a lot of testing I have reached the following conclusions about magic.
I'm quite confident about them, assuming the numbers given by the logs created by debug mode are reliable, though of course there could still be mistakes or niche cases where they do not apply.

1)Default spell penetration seems to be 11, not 10 - tested by casting many Astral spells, and it seems unlikely different spells or school would have different base penetration.

The manual would however be statistically correct however because it claims both that base penetration is 10 and that the 'caster wins ties' - which is an exception to the default DRN rules (defender wins ties - check the attack vs defense examples provided with the tables).
This exception can be represented by just using regular DRN rules and giving the "attacker" (the caster) a +1 bonus, which I believe is what the game is actually doing.

WARNING Note this is what the debug log claims, but statistical analysis suggests base penetration is actually 12!

2)Path bonuses gained from communions do not count for purpose of penetration.

3)If a mage's path level is above the spell's minimum, their penetration bonus is the excess skill halved, *rounded up*.

4)If a mage's path level is lower than the spell's minimum - that is, they can only cast it through a communion - they do not take a direct penalty to penetration, but their +penetration bonuses from items can reduced, possibly to 0.
If the mage 's level is 3 or 4 lower, the penetration bonus is reduced by 1 point.
If 5 or 6, 2 points.

So if a S1 mage casts a S4 spell through a communion and has a Spell Focus (+1 pen), they do not benefit from it. They would if they reached at least S2 however.

5)Communions cannot give more than a +6 bonus (reached at 64 slaves). Tested with 300+ Theurg Communicants.

6)The (own path)/2 bonus to MR described in the manual is actually logged as a reduction to penetration, and it rounds *down* (since it's a penalty, read this as 'towards 0').

So if a S5 mage casts Enslave Mind (S4) at a S1 they receive +1 penetration from their skill and no penalty from the target's.

This is strange, but might be intentional to give the caster a further advantage, just like base pen being 11 and not 10.

Or it could just be that since this is a penalty to penetration (thus a negative number), it's rounded towards 0.

7)The 'communion slave' effect is lost when a mage turns into a non-commander unit (Enslave Mind, Master Enslave...), but not when they switch side while keeping their mind (Charm).

I consider this mildly surprising because of the existence of Theurg Communicants.

8)Secondary spell effects can scale gaining increased AoE and/or damage from caster's paths, but their penetration is only affected by items, not caster's path level.


Actual examples:
Fireball 'heat shock' will cause more fatigue if cast by a powerful fire mage.

Liquify and Nether darts will not be more likely to cripple or feeblemind targets in the secondary AoE if cast by a powerful water or astral mage, but they will if that mage is using a +penetration item.
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GlointheDark
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For completeness, can you confirm hell power acts aimilarly?

Also, what about using a gem to boost a mage from l4 to l5, do they retain a penetration bonus?
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
Quote:
 
For completeness, can you confirm hell power acts aimilarly?

The +2 to all paths from Hell Power works for purpose of calculating penetration, just like Power of the Spheres, Light of the North Star, +path bonus items...
This is not surprising, as you can see this bonus directly in the mage stats, unlike with communions.

Quote:
 
Also, what about using a gem to boost a mage from l4 to l5, do they retain a penetration bonus?

If a mage can cast a spell only by spending an extra gem then their path level is only one level lower - so the penetration bonus from items would not be reduced anyway.

But just to be sure, I tested with a S2 mage with an Eye of the Void (+2 penetration) casting Soul Slay (S3) using a gem. Actual penetration was 13, which fits my conclusions.

EDIT: Also, I added another discovery to the OP, it's about the bonus to resist spells of their own paths mage receive - it rounds down, and is logged as a reduction to penetration.
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Zonk
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Added fact 7. Enslave Mind / Master Enslave won't preserve communion slave status, but Charm will.

This was not obvious, as Theurg Communicants set a precedent for the existance of troop communion slaves.
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GlointheDark
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Zonk,Oct 26 2016
07:48 AM
Quote:
 
For completeness, can you confirm hell power acts aimilarly?

The +2 to all paths from Hell Power works for purpose of calculating penetration, just like Power of the Spheres, Light of the North Star, +path bonus items...
This is not surprising, as you can see this bonus directly in the mage stats, unlike with communions.

Quote:
 
Also, what about using a gem to boost a mage from l4 to l5, do they retain a penetration bonus?

If a mage can cast a spell only by spending an extra gem then their path level is only one level lower - so the penetration bonus from items would not be reduced anyway.

But just to be sure, I tested with a S2 mage with an Eye of the Void (+2 penetration) casting Soul Slay (S3) using a gem. Actual penetration was 13, which fits my conclusions.

EDIT: Also, I added another discovery to the OP, it's about the bonus to resist spells of their own paths mage receive - it rounds down, and is logged as a reduction to penetration.

If you've covered this, sorry.
I was trying to ask if your gem use boosted you to 2 levels over the spell req, did you get a pen bonus.

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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
Mages can only spend one gem to raise their path level, and that is only when their path level is one below the requirement.

So the situation you are asking about cannot happen.
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GlointheDark
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Agree about the one level. However, I am fairly sure I've seen the gems use to boost a level when fatigue was high, even if that made you two levels over requirement.

Ie s4 boosted to s5 to cast an s3 spell in the specific case where 50 fatigue would put you well over 100 but 25 would not.
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
I did the following quick test : make a N9 cast Army of Rats (N7, 5 gems / 500 fatigue)

They spent 8 gems (so 3 extra), but penetration was only 12 - which is what to expect from being 2 levels above the minimum, not 3.

However their casting level for purpose of fatigue was 12 : they received 1/6 fatigue.

Also, a F5 casting Living Fire (F4, 200 fatigue/2 gems, no penetration but # of elementals scales) using 1 extra gems got 6 elementals and 1/3 rather than 1/2 fatigue.

So my current feeling is that the first extra gem you spend counts for effect scaling, but not penetration.
Need more testing however.
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Zonk
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Some testing with Liquify and Nether Darts suggests that the penetration of secondary spell effects (#nextspells) is increased by the caster's items, but not skill.

W9 caster using Liquify (a W4 spell) with a Void Eye seems to get +5 penetration on the base spell, but only +2 on the Area Cripple.

Similar situation when a S9D9 mage casts Nether Darts (S1D1) - the MR negates damage gains bonus penetration from the mage's skill and items, but the area feeblemind only benefits from items.

Also worth knowing if you use the debug log: the +4/-4 MR modifiers for MR resists easy/hard are actually logged as -4/+4 to penetration.

So if a W4 cast Liquify with no penetration items, the base spell would show as pen 7 (=11-4), while the secondary effect would be 15 (=11+4)


Test I have done in the past imply that damage and AoE of #nextspells *do* scale with the caster's skill - more powerful fire mages throw more fatiguing fireballs for example (the Heat Shock effect scales).
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GlointheDark
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Is there any chance that it might be tied to be secondary aoe?
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
You mean you expect this to only happen for #nextspells that are AoE?
It's possible and I could test with single target spells that have a #nextspell, but I see no reason to expect this would be the case.
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Deathjester
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Just a quick thanks for doing these tests. Interesting finds.
Check out my mods:
The Empire of the Fallen based on Steven Erikson's books (Dom4):
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Amazon Tribes United - Feminye, The War Cult (Dom 4):
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High Elves based on the Warhammer HE (Dom 4):
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Zonk
Dom 5 Beta Team
Thanks, I appreciate people being interested in my results.

And I just added fact 8 to the main post, which is #nextspells scaling with caster's path for purpose of AoE and damage, but only caring about item bonuses for purpose of penetration.
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frondeur de rhodes
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Really, really interesting stuff for all astral and blood nations. A big thank you.
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Johannes
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Zonk,Oct 26 2016
01:39 AM
1)Default spell penetration seems to be 11, not 10 - tested by casting many Astral spells, and it seems unlikely different spells or school would have different base penetration.

The manual is however statistically correct however because it claims both that base penetration is 10 and that the 'caster wins ties' - which is an exception to the default DRN rules (defender wins ties - check the attack vs defense examples provided with the tables).
This exception can be represented by just using regular DRN rules and giving the "attacker" (the caster)  a +1 bonus, which I believe is what the game is actually doing.

Are you sure this is true? The base penetration is 12, in my experience. Ie. when casting a spell like Soul Slay against a MR 10 target, you get a ~62% success rate. BV also checks against that according to my tests. But that checks I did a long time ago, with Soul Slay iirc - what was your methodology and results? It could be that it varies by spell.


And "MR negates easily" stuff has penetration of 8, though I don't remember whether I actually tested that or just assumed.


Edit:http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=1307
Dom3 Mind Hunt is against 14 according to this. But, Dom3. So could've easily been changed since. But just as likely that MH simply has a different check difficulty. Warrants further testing.
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