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Countering Air Elementals; Advice Sought
Topic Started: Dec 7 2016, 09:18 PM (2,343 Views)
sunbeam
*Spicy* Crew
shonuf,Dec 12 2016
11:50 AM
A risky but high-reward move would be a celestial chastisement communion. 18 permanent size 6 air elementals would be quite the asset I reckon.

Yeah, but I was looking at this link:https://steamcommunity.com/app/259060/discu...42447925375460/

I think your odds are awful. The tests in the link were done against armies with MR 10 troops. Air Elementals are MR 18, at least ones of this size.

Anyway apparently path levels gained from communions do not increase penetration bonuses. I'm guessing with EA T'ien Ch'i you would be hard pressed to get over S2 or S3 (maybe).

That gets you to like 30% success rates or so (without Penetration items), and that is against MR 10.

So unless you have a high level astral pretender you don't mind putting in harm's way (and his odds are probably poor as well without two runehammers or something), I don't think it is a good return on your investment.

Ironically MA Man might be a good choice to try your idea. Thirty or so N3 Mothers spamming Charm are bound to get something. You will probably lose almost all of them though for a couple elementals.
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
MA Man has no problem putting out some friendly size-6 air elementals to act as blockers for mass charms.

Size-6 elementals have MR 18 though, which is hella fucking annoying to try to break through. I wouldn't bother.

To just kill them off, Mind Hunt works, too. If you have the boosters/pen for it just lying around.
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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
Like I said earlier - a few applications of a bane venom charm -just enough for the leaders to get diseased. Then wait it out.

if you're talking ethereal,doesn't TC get ancestor vessels?
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
spending D gems on bane venom charms and then diseasing your own mages/killing your own pop so 10 turns later the mages will die sounds like an absolute waste of time
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
Ethereal miss chance applies to tramples, but overall it just lengthens the life of whatever is being trampled. Does not make it immune. In combination with a high defense score, may look like the unit is immune.

hugely expensive sacred fear bow cavalry are just about the worst unit you could possibly pick to 'get trampled'
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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
spending D gems on bane venom charms and then diseasing your own mages/killing your own pop so 10 turns later the mages will die sounds like an absolute waste of time

He said he doesn't have any significant number of mages there. Just built the castle. Spending 8 gems for an item you will get to keep - or 6 fire gems AFTER you build boosters so he can cast fire elementals... yeah. Sounds terrible.

Even if there were mages good chance they're D mages anyway....
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
10 d gems per bane venom charm, to have a good chance of having diseased all the enemy mages you'd need roughly 6 bane venom turns so you're looking at 20 gems minimum, plus you're diseasing all the mages/troops in the fort, plus you're killing your own pop, for no reason.

I've never advocated fire elementals and they are also a bad choice as the nation doesn't have the paths. Not going to continue this journey-into-the-depths-of-gloin's brain at this point.
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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
Yeah, your solution was mind hunt. After you build 25 gems of penetration items.

Ignoring the fact that he said it was early game. So researching construction4 AND evo6 for mind hunt and finding the gems and constructing the items and spending gems on mind hunt to have a 50% chance. (twice) And coming up with an S4 caster. Yeah, sounds like a winner. Should be able to get it done by year 3.

My solution requires *one* bane venom charm. His mages on site are death mages and he has an immortal that heals disease.

Personally, I wouldn't screw with it. But if he wants it done soon - he should be able to do it my way .. 2 years faster than yours.
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
Rejakor
 
Some chaff to die in the first turn of being trampled (THERE MUST BE ENOUGH SO THERE'S NO TRAMPLE OVERFLOW).

Some chaff to provide a 'HP anchor' in the rear so you don't HP rout.

Some mages that can summon air elementals, the size 6 ones, to permanently hold up the enemy air elementals. You must have at least 3. This is so no matter how they stack up the enemy will have no 'free' air elementals once they are all 'locked in' fighting your summoned ones.

Something to kill the enemy mages at the rear. Not troops, as those might 'free up' the air elementals to trample your mages. Mind Burn seems the safest option, as it will only target the mages, has enough range, and will eventually get through their MR.


Quote:
 
Yeah, your solution was mind hunt. After you build 25 gems of penetration items.


coolbeans

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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
Rejakor,Dec 12 2016
01:21 PM


To just kill them off, Mind Hunt works, too.  If you have the boosters/pen for it just lying around.

Oh right.. Your *other* brilliant solution.

Conjuration 5, for Size 6 air elementals. At least 3 casters of a 1.1% cap only STR mage.

With a lot of chaff in front. And a Hit point reserve behind to make sure you don't route. With a bunch of 33% S2 STR mages. At 320 gold a pop. And make sure you hit those -3 MR checks, before the ***16**** size 6 air elementals tear you to shreds.

Should take say - 500 chaff.

Were you figuring to build the 30 gem penetration items again? I forget.

Yep. Truly brilliant.
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
"Communions don't exist, you need A3 to summon air elementals, and 18 air elementals trample 400 cheap units in a single battle turn." - Glow in the Dark, 2016

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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew

Rejakors Solution:
Conj 5
Thau 2

3 Celestial Mages
3 Mind burn mages.
4 communion slaves

Tons of chaff
Hit point reserve
25 gems of penetration items.
At least 3 A gems for Air elementals.

========================

Glo's solution:
1 bane venom charm.
Con 4.
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KoboldLord
*Spicy* Crew
I have to say, I haven't been impressed with the bane venom charm plan whenever I use it to clear out indies in actual games. The problem with it is that it takes a minimum of a whole freaking year to get rid of a problem commander, and because of the high variance in how it works it often takes two years or more to work. And you still don't get much profit afterward, because the gold income of the province is trashed. I've used it on things like spring hawk provinces before, and it usually finally finishes the job around the time when I have enough research just to flatten the province normally.

The air elemental/mind burn communion is totally not worth it, either, but at least it has the benefit of putting to use units and gear you would have wanted to recruit and forge anyway. It is also over and done with immediately, which is presumably important because if you are bothering with that province at all you must really need it urgently because otherwise you'd be leaving it alone.

Just eat the 1,300 gold loss of infrastructure rather than throwing good money after bad.
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
Conj contains TC's national summons that in EA they use because they have a bless. It's also one of their most powerful battlemagics for their noncap mages.

Thau 2 is trivial.

Celestial masters are EA TC's best mage and the go-to over imperial alchemists without matrixes, so if you're massing alchemists you have matrixes so forth so on.

TC has access to both N for cheap chaff and gold-cheap res-cheap units to get trampled.

This is a simple, year-2 solution that doesn't send you off the beaten track, require you to empower a master of the dead, or take 18 turns to deploy. And cost you all the mages in that fort, and any troops in that fort. And big swathes of the pop on that fort.

The 18+ mages you save using my plan due to time + no mages killed by bane venom charms is far and away worth the chaff/any dead communion slaves. Plus, all the lost income.

If you try to be clever, and ignore brute-force battlefield solutions, you'll lose. If you need some elementals removed, you REMOVE them. You don't wait a billion turns and poison your own units to avoid a fight.

The point of the game isn't 'trying to show how clever you are', gloin. The point of the game is to play to win.
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GlointheDark
*Spicy* Crew
Rejakor,Dec 15 2016
03:28 AM
Conj contains TC's national summons that in EA they use because they have a bless.  It's also one of their most powerful battlemagics for their noncap mages.

Thau 2 is trivial.

Celestial masters are EA TC's best mage and the go-to over imperial alchemists without matrixes, so if you're massing alchemists you have matrixes so forth so on. 

TC has access to both N for cheap chaff and gold-cheap res-cheap units to get trampled.

This is a simple, year-2 solution that doesn't send you off the beaten track, require you to empower a master of the dead, or take 18 turns to deploy.  And cost you all the mages in that fort, and any troops in that fort.  And big swathes of the pop on that fort.

The 18+ mages you save using my plan due to time + no mages killed by bane venom charms is far and away worth the chaff/any dead communion slaves.  Plus, all the lost income.

If you try to be clever, and ignore brute-force battlefield solutions, you'll lose.  If you need some elementals removed, you REMOVE them.  You don't wait a billion turns and poison your own units to avoid a fight.

The point of the game isn't 'trying to show how clever you are', gloin.  The point of the game is to play to win.

Rejakor,

I don't agree with OP's removing the air elementals either. Speaking of

Quote:
 
The point of the game isn't 'trying to show how clever you are', gloin. The point of the game is to play to win.
Weren't you the guy with the snide bananna?

I already know the disadvantages of bane venom charm - I said it in my first post. Several other things are more advantageous, if you happen to get lucky or have the right paths. Assassins, disease demon, Huge pretender etc.

I agree that conjuration is a valuable path for TC. So is construction.

With the BVC you might get lucky the first time you do it.

As for your 18 mages comment. The costs of clearing out these 18 air elementals in terms of turns, construction of items, uses of mage time - exceeds the cost of building another fort.

So until you get to mid game; with a stack of items and units - it simply isn't cost effective to do your solution.

It isn't cost effective to do mine either - that was stated at the onset. But if you need the earliest possible way to accomplish it, (the problem the op originally stated)....

Best wishes.
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