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How to counter blessings?; Counters for Blood Vengeance
Topic Started: Feb 7 2017, 12:37 AM (1,645 Views)
Aird14
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Witch Hunter
Hi everyone, I have this doubt, how do you fight against blood vengeance?

Currently my enemy has D5N9B9 so I wonder how to deal with that, a friend recommend me stellar cascades, also maybe using chaft main problem chaft is meant to stop those units so you can kill them (In this case the unit doing the killing it's going to die too)

Also, bonds of fire or trample work?
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KoboldLord
*Spicy* Crew
The b9 bless is one that has a very strong defensive impact in the mid- and late-game, and most nations are probably going to need to devise a custom counter for it. If you don't tell us at least what nation you are and what research and other resources you've already accumulated, our advice is necessarily going to be vague to the point of uselessness.

The main problem that the b9 bless presents is the fact that it is eventually going to kill the stuff you are trying to use to directly kill them, and if that stuff is your mages that's going to be very bad for you. Switch your mages off of direct damage evocations and have them use buffs on your own troops, debuffs on the enemy sacreds, or battlefield summons instead. Stellar cascades is one such example, but it is only particularly helpful if you have loads of recruitable astral mages sitting around; other mages might prefer spamming elementals or skeletons, or putting buffs like flaming arrows on some cheap and massable troops. Make sure you place your mages in a fashion that is mindful of what they're going to do off-script; if they want to start evoking direct damage off-script they're going to trigger a whole lot of blood vengeance, so try to keep them out of range so they do something safe and harmless instead.

You can also sometimes just smother b9 sacreds with masses of chaff and cheap stuff, and accept the massive casualties as the cost of doing business with blood nations that have good sacreds. It really helps if you can con some other nearby neighbor into helping you with your invasion, but of course that depends on the diplomatic state of the game.
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Aird14
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Witch Hunter
Thanks bro, I thought I put I was playing with Marignon, I consider using stellar cascades, but is easier to use my arch angels to cast living fire, my enemy right now is Ermor.

Man is between us absorbing more of the charge because I have purgatory.

So what about bonds of fire or trampling?
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Haerdalas
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*Spicy* Crew
I believe bonds of fire should be ok, but not 100% sure. No idea wrt Trampling. One other things that I know is fine is cloud spells - fire cloud is perfectly safe to use against B9 blessed units, except that it probably means your mages are in range to suicide via normal spells once they go off script.
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Aird14
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Witch Hunter
Haerdalas,Feb 7 2017
03:21 AM
I believe bonds of fire should be ok, but not 100% sure. No idea wrt Trampling. One other things that I know is fine is cloud spells - fire cloud is perfectly safe to use against B9 blessed units, except that it probably means your mages are in range to suicide via normal spells once they go off script.

Maybe sulphur haze but doesn't work on undead.
Unrelated, there is an item that works as fire in jar but for earth and astral?
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KoboldLord
*Spicy* Crew
Aird14,Feb 7 2017
03:12 AM
Thanks bro, I thought I put I was playing with Marignon, I consider using stellar cascades, but is easier to use my arch angels to cast living fire, my enemy right now is Ermor.

Man is between us absorbing more of the charge because I have purgatory.

So what about bonds of fire or trampling?

Oh, you're fighting against MA Ermor? That is extremely pertinent information to leave out. You can pretty much expect to have an awful time here; MA Ermor is extremely hard to deal with and will probably ruin you as a potential major power even if you manage to win.

Bonds of fire probably won't help very much. MA Ermor's sacred knights will plow right through with their 50 morale, taking damage, but if they survive they'll just regenerate. Additionally, most of the bonds of fire will probably hit longdead chaff. On the plus side, you won't take blood vengeance damage, but taking out one unit per mage-round isn't really going to get you anywhere very fast when your enemy can throw hundreds of skeletons per turn at you.

Trample does avoid blood vengeance damage, too, but any trampler you are likely to have access to will charge into the midst of a throne of skeletons, get tired, and then get poked to death.

Stellar cascades mostly won't work here because even though it totally works the mage AI doesn't understand that it works. Your mages will mostly cast it on bad targets or just go off-script.

Living fire is pretty good for this job, so probably keep doing that. But if MA Ermor isn't being dogpiled by literally the entire world at this point you're either going to lose to MA Ermor or to whoever doesn't have to fight MA Ermor.

Aird14
 
Unrelated, there is an item that works as fire in jar but for earth and astral?


Blood stone for earth and clam of pearls for astral. It will not be easy to forge these, as unlike the fire in a jar they require paths other than the one you get temporary gems for.
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Aird14
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Witch Hunter
Right now I have in that game a really good upperhand, and some arch angels and purgatory on play so I have a chance if he doesn't become even bigger.


Also in another game (Not sure about the bless but B9N9 is the worst case). I have the help of some other nations
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alguLoD
Poopyhead
B9 checks against Magic Resistance. Marignon has fairly easy access to the Antimagic spell.

Get antimagic up and then spam Holy Pyre. If you're really concerned, forge a few Amulets of Antimagic and put them on your Witch Hunters. Preferably place your army as far back on the deployment zone as possible and if you have access to it cast Wind Guide.

You'll still lose some of them, but Blood Vengeance will only trigger about 8% of the time (under 4% if you also use those amulets; bonus points if you have an astral bless) and they're easier to replace for you than Ermor's sacreds are for him.

Ermor has made a terrible mistake. B9 is for expendable, easily massed sacreds. Not ones that occasionally freespawn around their empire or cost considerable amounts of time and death gems to summon.
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Rejakor
*Spicy* Crew
Fire Elementals.
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Itwastuesday
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*Spicy* Crew
Living Fire on Witch Hunter communions. They eat through the chaff and his sacreds don't have magic weapons. I guess conflagration could help them take down the regenrerating undead.

Flaming Crossbows could likely take down his chaff easily, and the damage isn't wasted against Lictors.
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Aird14
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Witch Hunter
Itwastuesday,Feb 7 2017
03:39 PM
Living Fire on Witch Hunter communions. They eat through the chaff and his sacreds don't have magic weapons. I guess conflagration could help them take down the regenrerating undead.

Flaming Crossbows could likely take down his chaff easily, and the damage isn't wasted against Lictors.

I will do that, I ask about trample because is what a fire elemental do right?
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alguLoD
Poopyhead
Aird14,Feb 7 2017
05:58 PM
I will do that, I ask about trample because is what a fire elemental do right?

No, that's Earth and Air elementals.

However, the Heat Aura, Fire Shield, and AoE attack of the Fire elemental can achieve a similar effect.
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jBrereton
Dom 5 Beta Team
Lictors are insanely good under D5N9B9, don't believe the hype about that not being the case.

That's like 40 regenning hp of relatively high prot, very damaging troops right there plus the hundreds of random skeletons and possibly knights going with.

Antimagic will help (a little), but you are always going to have a really bad time against that bless, especially if the player is smart and has BoT up as soon as possible, so your Witch Hunters are going to be dying all over the place just turn-on-turn as well as being horribly expensive to replace.
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Aird14
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Witch Hunter
jBrereton,Feb 7 2017
09:03 PM
Lictors are insanely good under D5N9B9, don't believe the hype about that not being the case.

That's like 40 regenning hp of relatively high prot, very damaging troops right there plus the hundreds of random skeletons and possibly knights going with.

Antimagic will help (a little), but you are always going to have a really bad time against that bless, especially if the player is smart and has BoT up as soon as possible, so your Witch Hunters are going to be dying all over the place just turn-on-turn as well as being horribly expensive to replace.

For the moment I have the help of Ulm and Ryleh because they are next to him, maybe ctis and nazca
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joansam
*Spicy* Crew
Ok, assuming the Ermor player is pretty good, they're gonna have a nice Lictor economy going. N9B9 Lictors are terrifying, but I'd go with Flaming Arrows and as much communioned Living Fire spam as you can muster. Living Fire is especially good against Knights of the Chalice because their hoof and broadsword attacks often result in the fire elementals damaging them, but they're good against Lictors too. Hopefully you have some spare fire gems. You could also try Fire Fend + Fire Storm to thin out their chaffe and possibly mages.
I wouldn't rely on Holy Pyre w/Antimagic if they have a lot of Lictors, cause you will start losing mages at a decent rate, and Lictors have plenty of health anyway. Might be more worthwhile against Knights though.
Strategically, try to get the most people possible involved and go destroy their unholy capital before it's the death of you all.
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