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Need help defending Junction System.
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Topic Started: Aug 11 2009, 10:04 PM (2,321 Views)
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The Frostbound Prince
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Oct 28 2009, 06:25 AM
Post #16
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If you can read this, you are not illiterate. Congratulations! Have a cookie.
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- IronLungz
- Oct 28 2009, 04:24 AM
what's the point of keeping the cards? I always have 5 player cards at least anyway, and i don't refine those because the items they give aren't as rewarding as having a top tier spell in disc 1.
i also tried doing the card queen quest a couple times. lost patience. why spend like 6 hours running around the map playing cards and LOSING ON PURPOSE and then running to 8 different spots and then LOSING ON PURPOSE AGAIN, and then get your card back and blah blah blah blah. i'll never attempt such a waste of time again when you can just win them in disc 4. To each their own. I'm a perfectionist, I need to have at least one of everything and hate having to sacrifice one thing for another. I'd rather spend an extra hundred hours running around collecting things and doing things the hard way than do the quick fix that involves sacrificing one-only cards or items or whatever. Personally, the longer a game can keep me interested, the more fun I have with it. I've put in over 220 hours into one of my better games of FF8, and a good hundred or so more easy on other attempts and playthroughs. That says nothing for how long I've spent on other games either. FF12, I'm sure I put at least 220 hrs in minimum, and on Dissidia, I believe I'm sitting at a rather unhealthy 250 hours or so, and I've still got quite a ways to go until I'll be satisfied enough to put it down.
I get that I'm the freak out of all the types of players. I would rather put in multiple dozens of hours into one game than a couple into many. This is proven by how relatively few games I own, yet how much time I've put into each of them. I can't be totally happy until I've "mastered" everything the game can give me, and even if I do, somehow, manage to do it (I have yet to finish a game to my personal standard of "perfection", as far as I can tell), I have such a bad memory, I need to go back and replay them every few years for the most part to remember all the awesome, intricate little details.
So yeah, my strategies and ways of going about things aren't for everybody, and it's a free universe and everyone's allowed their own playplans, but I'm just callin' it like I see it. There's lots of ways to play any one game, even lots of ways to do it well, and a person has to work out their way for themselves. Drawing's good, refining is quite awesome, hell, even using Gameshark to hack in funfun items of doom like 99 Mog's Amulet and Friendships is cool if that's your perogative (which I have, admitedly, done. How else is a non-Japanese boyo supposed to get MiniMog and Moomba? Haven't done it more than once, but on one of my better games, in Ulti's Castle, there is a save file with each char with maxed stats and 99 or 100 of every item or whatever).
So yeah, I guess it all boils down to what you like. You give your suggestions for doing things, I give mine, other people if they happen to remember these boards are down here and are anyone-can-post-able can suggest theirs, and in the end, any theoretical non-us people can decide for themselves what better fits their way-of-play. Obviously we have some overlap---we both agree refining is an excellent way to get magic, and that cards are extremely useful for just such things---but at the same time, we differ too; I like having magic to junction, as early as possible, even if it means power levelling and drawing like a madman, as well as liking to keep at least one of everything, cards included, whereas you seem more "magic for use of magic", and less strictly for junctioning purposes, and don't worry so much about keeping that one item or card for posterity's sake just cuz it's pretty and helps complete a collection.
You and my sister have similar strategies that way. I can't help her like I would other people because she insists on doing things like you; in FF12, every piece of loot, she'd sell, if she bought better armour or weapons, she'd sell the suckier pieces. Sure, it meant she didn't have to fight as many battles to get the money necessary to buy these pretty new pieces of armaments, but there were also a lot of downsides---namely, she wasn't learning as many abilities or gaining as many levels as I would, and she'd have a much more limited selection of things to choose from.
Annnyway, long story short, you don't seem to be much with the pack-ratting things for personal reasons, whereas other people, like me, are that way. Nothin' wrong inherently with either mode of play, you've just gotta be happy with what you're doing. As long as the strategy works for you and you can make it through the game without massive Game Over'ing, then more power to ya. You can keep your empty inventory and card decks and potentially better-perhaps-earlier way of playing...I`ll take my tons o' battles and tried-and-true draw-and-also-refine method myself. After all, more battles mean more items to use to refine, which means more spells and cool things, and also means more money from all that added wandering. As far as I can tell, no downside. And if you say your way works just as well, then more power to it.
I'm an old fogey, and very set in my gameplayin' ways. If your way works, and other people like it best, yay them. If not, my way works too, and comes with its own fun bonuses. In the end, no one loses, so long as they can make it through to the final FMV and watch the wonderfulness that is Zell getting his hotdog....er, I mean Squall and Rin makin' out *shifty eyes* So yes, fun times. 
Remember: it's not a waste of time if you're having fun. And if you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong, so um, cease and desist and all that jazz. o_O
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 ---No Hope---
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IronLungz
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Oct 29 2009, 02:01 PM
Post #17
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SeeD Candidate
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- The Frostbound Prince
- Oct 28 2009, 06:25 AM
- IronLungz
- Oct 28 2009, 04:24 AM
what's the point of keeping the cards? I always have 5 player cards at least anyway, and i don't refine those because the items they give aren't as rewarding as having a top tier spell in disc 1.
i also tried doing the card queen quest a couple times. lost patience. why spend like 6 hours running around the map playing cards and LOSING ON PURPOSE and then running to 8 different spots and then LOSING ON PURPOSE AGAIN, and then get your card back and blah blah blah blah. i'll never attempt such a waste of time again when you can just win them in disc 4.
To each their own. I'm a perfectionist, I need to have at least one of everything and hate having to sacrifice one thing for another. I'd rather spend an extra hundred hours running around collecting things and doing things the hard way than do the quick fix that involves sacrificing one-only cards or items or whatever. Personally, the longer a game can keep me interested, the more fun I have with it. I've put in over 220 hours into one of my better games of FF8, and a good hundred or so more easy on other attempts and playthroughs. That says nothing for how long I've spent on other games either. FF12, I'm sure I put at least 220 hrs in minimum, and on Dissidia, I believe I'm sitting at a rather unhealthy 250 hours or so, and I've still got quite a ways to go until I'll be satisfied enough to put it down. I get that I'm the freak out of all the types of players. I would rather put in multiple dozens of hours into one game than a couple into many. This is proven by how relatively few games I own, yet how much time I've put into each of them. I can't be totally happy until I've "mastered" everything the game can give me, and even if I do, somehow, manage to do it (I have yet to finish a game to my personal standard of "perfection", as far as I can tell), I have such a bad memory, I need to go back and replay them every few years for the most part to remember all the awesome, intricate little details. So yeah, my strategies and ways of going about things aren't for everybody, and it's a free universe and everyone's allowed their own playplans, but I'm just callin' it like I see it. There's lots of ways to play any one game, even lots of ways to do it well, and a person has to work out their way for themselves. Drawing's good, refining is quite awesome, hell, even using Gameshark to hack in funfun items of doom like 99 Mog's Amulet and Friendships is cool if that's your perogative (which I have, admitedly, done. How else is a non-Japanese boyo supposed to get MiniMog and Moomba? Haven't done it more than once, but on one of my better games, in Ulti's Castle, there is a save file with each char with maxed stats and 99 or 100 of every item or whatever). So yeah, I guess it all boils down to what you like. You give your suggestions for doing things, I give mine, other people if they happen to remember these boards are down here and are anyone-can-post-able can suggest theirs, and in the end, any theoretical non-us people can decide for themselves what better fits their way-of-play. Obviously we have some overlap---we both agree refining is an excellent way to get magic, and that cards are extremely useful for just such things---but at the same time, we differ too; I like having magic to junction, as early as possible, even if it means power levelling and drawing like a madman, as well as liking to keep at least one of everything, cards included, whereas you seem more "magic for use of magic", and less strictly for junctioning purposes, and don't worry so much about keeping that one item or card for posterity's sake just cuz it's pretty and helps complete a collection. You and my sister have similar strategies that way. I can't help her like I would other people because she insists on doing things like you; in FF12, every piece of loot, she'd sell, if she bought better armour or weapons, she'd sell the suckier pieces. Sure, it meant she didn't have to fight as many battles to get the money necessary to buy these pretty new pieces of armaments, but there were also a lot of downsides---namely, she wasn't learning as many abilities or gaining as many levels as I would, and she'd have a much more limited selection of things to choose from. Annnyway, long story short, you don't seem to be much with the pack-ratting things for personal reasons, whereas other people, like me, are that way. Nothin' wrong inherently with either mode of play, you've just gotta be happy with what you're doing. As long as the strategy works for you and you can make it through the game without massive Game Over'ing, then more power to ya. You can keep your empty inventory and card decks and potentially better-perhaps-earlier way of playing...I`ll take my tons o' battles and tried-and-true draw-and-also-refine method myself. After all, more battles mean more items to use to refine, which means more spells and cool things, and also means more money from all that added wandering. As far as I can tell, no downside. And if you say your way works just as well, then more power to it. I'm an old fogey, and very set in my gameplayin' ways. If your way works, and other people like it best, yay them. If not, my way works too, and comes with its own fun bonuses. In the end, no one loses, so long as they can make it through to the final FMV and watch the wonderfulness that is Zell getting his hotdog....er, I mean Squall and Rin makin' out *shifty eyes* So yes, fun times.  Remember: it's not a waste of time if you're having fun. And if you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong, so um, cease and desist and all that jazz. o_O yeah that sums it up.
except what you say about my junctioning. having 100 demis and 100 quakes and 100 curagas within 3 hours of starting the game is only nice because of the way they junction. 100 curaga gives me like 4 thousand health at lvl 20 (it cost like 10 thousand gil), and 100 quake gives me like 150 at lvl 10 after str + and str bonus, and 100 demis junction great to magic. honestly, I admit that the way you do it (drawing and lvling) would give you a better inventory of spells to work with than simple refining, but perfection isn't necessary when the game is this.... simple. I've never game overed except with Omega Weapon, I 1 hitted the first seifer fight, 2 hitted edea, and just beat the game simply and quickly, with a solid party. No computer could really stop what i had, especially after a while... tripled meteor, popping 40k, with haste and squall popping for 6k a turn.
honestly though, this game is too easy after figuring everything out.
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The Frostbound Prince
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Oct 29 2009, 09:26 PM
Post #18
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If you can read this, you are not illiterate. Congratulations! Have a cookie.
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- IronLungz
- Oct 29 2009, 02:01 PM
yeah that sums it up.
except what you say about my junctioning. having 100 demis and 100 quakes and 100 curagas within 3 hours of starting the game is only nice because of the way they junction. 100 curaga gives me like 4 thousand health at lvl 20 (it cost like 10 thousand gil), and 100 quake gives me like 150 at lvl 10 after str + and str bonus, and 100 demis junction great to magic. honestly, I admit that the way you do it (drawing and lvling) would give you a better inventory of spells to work with than simple refining, but perfection isn't necessary when the game is this.... simple. I've never game overed except with Omega Weapon, I 1 hitted the first seifer fight, 2 hitted edea, and just beat the game simply and quickly, with a solid party. No computer could really stop what i had, especially after a while... tripled meteor, popping 40k, with haste and squall popping for 6k a turn.
honestly though, this game is too easy after figuring everything out.
True, the game is a lot less impossible than some games (take FF12 and some of the more scary enemies/bosses, or anything you could make in FF10's Monster Arena, ect.), and there are much less super-hardcore-bosses in it than games after it (and perhaps before), but it can be pretty bad if you don't plan for things. Just a quick overview of this site will tell you how many people have needed help, say, fighting Adel on Disc 4 cuz they didn't plan right.
There are ways to play this game right (our individual strategies work perfectly fine for us, for example), and ways to do it wrong. Trying to fight Adel with a party at about level 15 when you've relied on Limit Breaks and GFs the whole way through is one of the latter. In one month alone, we had four different people ask the same question over again: "how do I beat Adel?!" They all had pretty much the same problem: none of them had taken the time to level up at all, they had the basic weapons, no real magic to speak of, and only a handful of all the available GFs. Instead of making the most out of the game, they must have literally spent 20 hours tops on it and just powered through the game by sheer luck (and probably some well-landed GF and Limit attacks). It just stuns me when this happens. Sure, speed is cool, but if you just wanna fight battles and move on, pick up one of those Mortal Kombat games or something. 
So yeah, Junction system is fun. Sure, there are probably ones that are easier to work out (after all, the "equip a weapon to learn an ability and then equip the ability using points" method of FF9 wasn't exactly rocket science, and it worked well enough, so long as you could actually GET all the items), but I dunno about you, but I find the Junction system a lot more fun and infinitely customizable. You want someone besides Squall (or Selphie with her ultimate weapon) to have 255 Hit, equip a GF with Hit-J and junction on some Triples (only Zell doesn't reach max Hit with this strategy ). You want your character to absorb something like 80% of all elemental attacks? Use Elem-Defx4 and equip the right spells (which they are I forget offhand, but I believe Ultima and Shell were two of them). Want almost max HP at level 20 or 30? Equip 100 Full-Lifes to HP-J. You wanna be able to kill Cactuars before they flee in abject terror? Auto-Haste and Initiative on someone with high Spd and Hit. For every need, a combination of GFs, magic, and abilities to make it work.
What other game can quite say that?
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 ---No Hope---
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IronLungz
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Nov 11 2009, 02:44 AM
Post #19
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SeeD Candidate
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- The Frostbound Prince
- Oct 29 2009, 09:26 PM
- IronLungz
- Oct 29 2009, 02:01 PM
yeah that sums it up.
except what you say about my junctioning. having 100 demis and 100 quakes and 100 curagas within 3 hours of starting the game is only nice because of the way they junction. 100 curaga gives me like 4 thousand health at lvl 20 (it cost like 10 thousand gil), and 100 quake gives me like 150 at lvl 10 after str + and str bonus, and 100 demis junction great to magic. honestly, I admit that the way you do it (drawing and lvling) would give you a better inventory of spells to work with than simple refining, but perfection isn't necessary when the game is this.... simple. I've never game overed except with Omega Weapon, I 1 hitted the first seifer fight, 2 hitted edea, and just beat the game simply and quickly, with a solid party. No computer could really stop what i had, especially after a while... tripled meteor, popping 40k, with haste and squall popping for 6k a turn.
honestly though, this game is too easy after figuring everything out.
True, the game is a lot less impossible than some games (take FF12 and some of the more scary enemies/bosses, or anything you could make in FF10's Monster Arena, ect.), and there are much less super-hardcore-bosses in it than games after it (and perhaps before), but it can be pretty bad if you don't plan for things. Just a quick overview of this site will tell you how many people have needed help, say, fighting Adel on Disc 4 cuz they didn't plan right. There are ways to play this game right (our individual strategies work perfectly fine for us, for example), and ways to do it wrong. Trying to fight Adel with a party at about level 15 when you've relied on Limit Breaks and GFs the whole way through is one of the latter. In one month alone, we had four different people ask the same question over again: "how do I beat Adel?!" They all had pretty much the same problem: none of them had taken the time to level up at all, they had the basic weapons, no real magic to speak of, and only a handful of all the available GFs. Instead of making the most out of the game, they must have literally spent 20 hours tops on it and just powered through the game by sheer luck (and probably some well-landed GF and Limit attacks). It just stuns me when this happens. Sure, speed is cool, but if you just wanna fight battles and move on, pick up one of those Mortal Kombat games or something.  So yeah, Junction system is fun. Sure, there are probably ones that are easier to work out (after all, the "equip a weapon to learn an ability and then equip the ability using points" method of FF9 wasn't exactly rocket science, and it worked well enough, so long as you could actually GET all the items), but I dunno about you, but I find the Junction system a lot more fun and infinitely customizable. You want someone besides Squall (or Selphie with her ultimate weapon) to have 255 Hit, equip a GF with Hit-J and junction on some Triples (only Zell doesn't reach max Hit with this strategy  ). You want your character to absorb something like 80% of all elemental attacks? Use Elem-Defx4 and equip the right spells (which they are I forget offhand, but I believe Ultima and Shell were two of them). Want almost max HP at level 20 or 30? Equip 100 Full-Lifes to HP-J. You wanna be able to kill Cactuars before they flee in abject terror? Auto-Haste and Initiative on someone with high Spd and Hit. For every need, a combination of GFs, magic, and abilities to make it work. What other game can quite say that?  that's the brilliance of the game i guess. I feel that i've lost track of how hard this game was the first time i played it. right now i can beat the game with my eyes closed, hell, i probably know it well enough to play it in japanese. and that has made me realize how hard this game can actually be.
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The Frostbound Prince
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Nov 11 2009, 04:06 AM
Post #20
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If you can read this, you are not illiterate. Congratulations! Have a cookie.
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- IronLungz
- Nov 11 2009, 02:44 AM
that's the brilliance of the game i guess. I feel that i've lost track of how hard this game was the first time i played it. right now i can beat the game with my eyes closed, hell, i probably know it well enough to play it in japanese. and that has made me realize how hard this game can actually be. When you think about it, though, how many games ARE that difficult? I mean, how many FF games have regular boss battles that can't pretty much be killed by excessive attacking and healing? Most times, strategy is pretty much unneeded in these games, cuz if you've been levelling up properly and equipping yourself with all the new stuff available and just generally /keeping up/ in the game, usually it's not an issue.
Really, I think the only boss battles I've personally had a problem with was the one Seymour fight on Mt. Gagazet (and I can't even remember if it was me who had the problem now or if I'm just remembering all the people I know who /did/ have that problem) in FF10, and Xaldin in KH2 at Beast's Castle (the only time I ever died in pretty much any game besides the earlier Demyx battle cuz I didn't do whatever with the water clones which was my own fault, but Mickey kept saving me so I did end up beating him without a game over). And just for general people, the Adel fight in FF8.
I'm sure there's a few other examples, but mostly, if you play right, almost 9 times out of 10, hitting it with normal attacks while healing frequently will get you through almost all boss fights you need to actually fight in a game (ie: not including Omega and Ultima Weapon from FF8, for example). Really, it's kinda lame how easy the bosses are, but I suppose like most people, if they were any harder and I actually died a couple times in a row, I'd give up and stop playing. After all, I tend to abandon games (usually just temporily) if I can't complete something perfectly or if I miss a good item or something.
Anyway, I think yeah, once you work a game out and figure how to master its battle system and such, it does get a lot easier. After all, in most games, it's a good weapon, in conjunction with a good stash of magic and items and the right summons and stats overall that gets a battle won. Maximize your effectiveness by understanding the game early on, and it's usually impossible to get screwed over.
Just take FF12. Get a good Gambit system going, and make sure you're always getting the better weapons and equipment, and buying the right licences, and it's near impossible to die if you aren't severly underlevelled. After all, you keep a healthy stock of Phoenix Downs and an Ally:Any=Phoenix Down gambit on your first slot, and literally, so long as someone survives the attack, you're gonna be jumpin' right back up from your early grave and probably not gonna get too screwed unless you bite off more than you can chew (like running into a hoard of monsters with a Salamand Entite chasing you casting full-party Firaja on you -____-)
..anyway, yeah. Just sayin', it is a better system than people give it credit for, and a lot more sensical (why do items teach you skills? Why do you have to buy a licence to equip a hat? Why do you have to go through a maze of abilities to learn Blizzard?), whereas here, the GFs know the abilities inherently, and you humbly accept their great power while making them greater and teaching them new abilities. Which you thereon equip, and happy days ensue.
Plus yeah, as we can both attest, once you work it out, there's no problem you can't generally solve with the right combination of weapons, GFs, magic, and junction abilities. Unless you're level 5 fighting Omega Weapon. Might run into some problems there.
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 ---No Hope---
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Darth Skywalker Master Kenobi
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Nov 15 2009, 08:22 AM
Post #21
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SeeD n00b
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- The Frostbound Prince
- Nov 11 2009, 04:06 AM
- IronLungz
- Nov 11 2009, 02:44 AM
that's the brilliance of the game i guess. I feel that i've lost track of how hard this game was the first time i played it. right now i can beat the game with my eyes closed, hell, i probably know it well enough to play it in japanese. and that has made me realize how hard this game can actually be.
When you think about it, though, how many games ARE that difficult? I mean, how many FF games have regular boss battles that can't pretty much be killed by excessive attacking and healing? Most times, strategy is pretty much unneeded in these games, cuz if you've been levelling up properly and equipping yourself with all the new stuff available and just generally /keeping up/ in the game, usually it's not an issue. Really, I think the only boss battles I've personally had a problem with was the one Seymour fight on Mt. Gagazet (and I can't even remember if it was me who had the problem now or if I'm just remembering all the people I know who /did/ have that problem) in FF10, and Xaldin in KH2 at Beast's Castle (the only time I ever died in pretty much any game besides the earlier Demyx battle cuz I didn't do whatever with the water clones which was my own fault, but Mickey kept saving me so I did end up beating him without a game over). And just for general people, the Adel fight in FF8. I'm sure there's a few other examples, but mostly, if you play right, almost 9 times out of 10, hitting it with normal attacks while healing frequently will get you through almost all boss fights you need to actually fight in a game (ie: not including Omega and Ultima Weapon from FF8, for example). Really, it's kinda lame how easy the bosses are, but I suppose like most people, if they were any harder and I actually died a couple times in a row, I'd give up and stop playing. After all, I tend to abandon games (usually just temporily) if I can't complete something perfectly or if I miss a good item or something. Anyway, I think yeah, once you work a game out and figure how to master its battle system and such, it does get a lot easier. After all, in most games, it's a good weapon, in conjunction with a good stash of magic and items and the right summons and stats overall that gets a battle won. Maximize your effectiveness by understanding the game early on, and it's usually impossible to get screwed over. Just take FF12. Get a good Gambit system going, and make sure you're always getting the better weapons and equipment, and buying the right licences, and it's near impossible to die if you aren't severly underlevelled. After all, you keep a healthy stock of Phoenix Downs and an Ally:Any=Phoenix Down gambit on your first slot, and literally, so long as someone survives the attack, you're gonna be jumpin' right back up from your early grave and probably not gonna get too screwed unless you bite off more than you can chew (like running into a hoard of monsters with a Salamand Entite chasing you casting full-party Firaja on you -____-) ..anyway, yeah. Just sayin', it is a better system than people give it credit for, and a lot more sensical (why do items teach you skills? Why do you have to buy a licence to equip a hat? Why do you have to go through a maze of abilities to learn Blizzard?), whereas here, the GFs know the abilities inherently, and you humbly accept their great power while making them greater and teaching them new abilities. Which you thereon equip, and happy days ensue. Plus yeah, as we can both attest, once you work it out, there's no problem you can't generally solve with the right combination of weapons, GFs, magic, and junction abilities. Unless you're level 5 fighting Omega Weapon. Might run into some problems there.  ha funny. the only very hard thing in ff8 for me is definitely just omega weapon. ultima weapon is a pum pum. i sit there and draw ultimas until everyone's 100 and then just beat him, always having revive and defend on.
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Seifer
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Jun 19 2010, 06:45 PM
Post #22
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Beyond the Azure Blue
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- The Frostbound Prince
- Aug 19 2009, 08:54 PM
- Lovin
- Aug 19 2009, 08:18 AM
Yeah, either we shut everyone up or they didnt notice. No one has responded haha.
Probably the latter. The sheer volume of what I write tends to turn people off to the prospect of reading it. Or so I have noticed here o_O Although, in a more optimistic view, um, we kick arse, so...yay. =D Heh, true. Who needs strategy guides? Since I started posting here, I felt (and became) a lot more competent at FF8, FF7, and every other rpg.
Then I started watching speed-runs (and tool-assisted speed-runs) and, coupled with learning to play and win DnD, I began to understand what optimization really is (for example).
Maybe if you shortened your paragraphs (to 2-3 lines per paragraph) it would be less intimidating to read? What you write is really engaging, once a person can get past the fear of having to read something for half-an-hour
- The Frostbound Prince
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When you think about it, though, how many games ARE that difficult?
Clearly you haven't seen this.
Edited by Seifer, Jun 19 2010, 06:48 PM.
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~ A lesson in FF8 strategy to us all ~
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