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CLOSEDWho would you like to see back?CLOSED; Nicaragua Jury Stage: Allstars
Topic Started: Mar 21 2011, 01:52 AM (1,839 Views)
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That's what annoys me about most Survivor fans. Most casual viewers accept that Jud won because more jurors liked him but they don't accept that Natalie won because more jurors liked her. GTS/Sucks seems to be the opposite just for the sake of being different. They accept Natalie's win but not Jud's. Now, I'm not saying Chase had anywhere near as horrible of a social game as Hantz but still...why accept it for one person but not for another?


Natalie had a strategy and accomplished what she said she was going to do, while Jud was on the outs the entire game. And if the jury really did like Jud more, we didn't see that. We saw two random votes for him in KShinn and Na'Onka that were not explained at all, and instead a crafted relationship with Chase and Na'Onka were shown instead. Maybe the editors intentionally did that for irony when she ended up voting for Jud *shrug*

And really, I'm pretty sure the reason the casual viewers supported Jud's win was because he was a male who was good in challenges and didn't accept Natalie's because she was an underedited female. It's situational, but then again you can also make the argument that if Jud were a female he'd be more liked on Sucks. I'd like to think hardcore fans can appreciate when someone wins because the jury liked them more, but if that is why Jud won, then we weren't really shown how he was liked more because he had scarce jury ties.

I also think that most winners who made the end and won based on the "social game" mantra at least knew what they were doing, while even though Jud can (and did say) that he was "playing it cool" and actually knew what he was doing all he wants, I don't think that was the case? He got blindsided by a blindside that saved him. Same as Sierra, who not too many people consider a great player.
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True, but unlike SOME winners, Jud didn't sit there saying "no, I did nothing, I didn't outplay anybody or any of you, I suck" while the 2nd runner up threw it.
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I loved Fabio, but Natalie didn't need to win 3 immunities to make it to the finals. If you need immunity to stay, you fucked up somewhere (well...nearly everywhere in Jud's case :wacko:)

"I don't even know what level of cluelessness it takes to be blindsided by the blindside that keeps you in the game" ~ someone I don't remember



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I'm so torn on the Natalie vs Russell thing. I want to say Natalie played a weak game compared to Russell, but I hate Russell so fucking much and I can see why he didn't get votes. But I kind of think he deserved more votes? He wasn't nearly as bad as he was in HvV iirc.

I like Natalie but I was just never really fulfilled by her win.

Hope I didn't open up a whole 'nother can o' worms.
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Mar 22 2011, 09:00 PM
Umm because the edit did not make sense at all. There was HUGE confusion after the reveal since we had no idea who voted for who. I remember my friend and I sat there for like an hour trying to figure out if Holly and Jane voted for Chase or if Nay and Kelly Purple did. We checked Wikipedia but it kept changing.

We KNOW why Natalie won the game, it was Survivor 101 but the editors never made it clear as to why Jud won and why he beat Chase. I mean he was the casual favorite to win going into the finale, so I guess they didn't think they needed to but to go from someone like Nay who had a feud with Jud all during the season and she GAVE Chase her idol to voting for Jud to win, with almost no explanation just irritated me and that is why I don't really think Jud deserved to win as much.

Also Jud had to rely on challenge wins to get to the end, that is the only reason he won the game. I still don't understand why people compare his game to Natalie's since she never needed to rely on challenge wins to get to the end. She was strongly in a majority alliance and had a great social game which is why she won. So I don't think that comparing the Samoa FTC/result to Nicaragua really has any importance in this discussion.

If Jud and Nay had a feud and she voted for him anyway that is a reason to think Jud DID deserve to win. Chase, in theory, should have had been able to get her vote and he failed to do so. The reasons you were confused should lead you to the conclusion that Jud deserved his win. Not that he didn't.

No, Natalie just had to rely on HIIs to get to the end. :rolleyes: Also, that's my point. Her great social game is what got her the win. The same can be said for Jud.
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so misguided and so rude
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The majority liked Jud more than Chase. Isn't that enough?


No? Because this wasn't given to me when I watched the show. Obviously I can accept that as a fact but I would also like it to be accompanied with a storyline. And I'm not of the opinion that jurors are never wrong, I accept their votes but I still question them at times.

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That's what annoys me about most Survivor fans. Most casual viewers accept that Jud won because more jurors liked him but they don't accept that Natalie won because more jurors liked her. GTS/Sucks seems to be the opposite just for the sake of being different. They accept Natalie's win but not Jud's. Now, I'm not saying Chase had anywhere near as horrible of a social game as Hantz but still...why accept it for one person but not for another?


This isn't even a valid argument although I've seen it before. Comparing Natalie's game to Jud's game or Chase's to Russell's just doesn't work for me. Jud was entirely disconnected from the storyline the entire season. I can't remember a single time when Jud was relevant to anything aside from the very end. Jud was blindsided by the very blindside that saved his ass, to me, he's a pathetic player. He wasn't connected to the strategy or the goings on of the game at all. The only complaint you can make about Natalie is that she stood behind someone else. I don't think the two compare. Natalie had a 100% voting record. There was never a move that Natalie wasn't involved in, there was never a time when Natalie was left in the dark or didn't know what was going on, and most importantly, her strategy was given to us very clearly. She wasn't exciting or aggressive but she knew what she was doing and WE knew what she was doing. The same can't be said for Jud. As far as Chase and Russell, Chase was one vote away from winning. Yes, he lost, but it was hardly for similar reasons as Russell who has never even come close to winning. The only similarities in your argument is that Natalie & Jud won and Russell & Chase lost. And honestly, you're going to need to give me more than that for me to accept that there's any kind of similarity.

Jud winning and Chase losing is just how the game went, and while I think the jurors made a mistake, that's their mistake to make, and I more blame editing for making it as awful and unexplained as it is.

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The only vote a juror made that can really be described as surprising is Nay's..


No, that's not true and that's part of the reason it makes no sense. You just basically went on to describe why the fuck NaOnka's vote made no sense, which is another reason why Jud's win is so unsatisfying. Add to that the relationship the editors GAVE NaOnka/Chase on several occasions and it's a total fucking wtf vote. Secondly, KShinn's vote. Did she even talk to Jud? Wasn't she in an alliance with Chase since the beginning? They decided punishment for her quitting was more important than giving us a satisfying edit. THIRDLY, Marty. Marty spent the entire game talking about how people were SO DUMB and how he was the only smart one and he wished everyone else would play the game, and then he goes and votes for the person who barely ever played the game? So yes, I think people have the right to complain about the jury.

This isn't my first season, I know how the show works and I realize Jud won and that's that. But the fact of the matter is that I still feel that the jury was hypocritical and edited unsatisfactory and thus to me it feels like Chase was especially robbed.
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CO
Mar 22 2011, 09:12 PM
"I don't even know what level of cluelessness it takes to be blindsided by the blindside that keeps you in the game" ~ someone I don't remember

^_^

me
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The only person the idols saved was Russell. If Natalie was able to integrate into the women's alliance and get them to boot Erik when she didn't need an idol who is to stay that the women of Galu would not have picked her up and she makes it to the end again? :iiam
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Yope
Mar 22 2011, 10:03 PM
Sure he had to save his own ass with immunity, but that's kinda what threats do. It's what Medusa had to do in Disney, but no one calls her a bad winner (or do they :iiam).

Wow, rude. :'(
arasfromexile (11:55:08 PM): showing you gts will forever be my biggest mistake of our past friendship
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ImmaPlayafosho
Mar 23 2011, 02:12 AM
I'm so torn on the Natalie vs Russell thing. I want to say Natalie played a weak game compared to Russell, but I hate Russell so fucking much and I can see why he didn't get votes. But I kind of think he deserved more votes? He wasn't nearly as bad as he was in HvV iirc.

I like Natalie but I was just never really fulfilled by her win.

Hope I didn't open up a whole 'nother can o' worms.

I saw H vs V before I saw Samoa and I was surprised that Russell was more tolerable in Samoa because he was incredibly obnoxious in Samoa. Although the sock burning etc... thing still makes no sense at all. I mean it would have made sense AFTER the merge but not before.
Anyway he played a bad game because everyone hated him.
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also, whoever said that Chase had a bad social game (I just read the last 2 pages or so right now, so names are blending togther...it was probably XI though -_-)

Chase's social game was actually pretty great (compared to a season full of bad/mediocre players) and the editing had to go OTT with his (few) faults because of the lolwtfness of Jud somehow getting the votes at the end.

And of course, if they were going for the irony with NaOnka's vote, it would have helped if they actually showed her final voting confessional.
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Snoopy
Mar 22 2011, 09:16 PM
The only person the idols saved was Russell. If Natalie was able to integrate into the women's alliance and get them to boot Erik when she didn't need an idol who is to stay that the women of Galu would not have picked her up and she makes it to the end again? :iiam

Saying Natalie only won because of a HII is like saying Jud only won because a bunch of people quit, lessening the number of rounds he had to win immunity and giving him a much better chance so...
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Mar 22 2011, 10:19 PM
also, whoever said that Chase had a bad social game (I just read the last 2 pages or so right now, so names are blending togther...it was probably XI though -_-)

Chase's social game was actually pretty great (compared to a season full of bad/mediocre players) and the editing had to go OTT with his (few) faults because of the lolwtfness of Jud somehow getting the votes at the end.

And of course, if they were going for the irony with NaOnka's vote, it would have helped if they actually showed her final voting confessional.

I didn't say Chase had a bad social game, I just probably said he was a pussy. Though guess you could say that's the same thing.
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Mar 22 2011, 09:05 PM
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That's what annoys me about most Survivor fans. Most casual viewers accept that Jud won because more jurors liked him but they don't accept that Natalie won because more jurors liked her. GTS/Sucks seems to be the opposite just for the sake of being different. They accept Natalie's win but not Jud's. Now, I'm not saying Chase had anywhere near as horrible of a social game as Hantz but still...why accept it for one person but not for another?


Natalie had a strategy and accomplished what she said she was going to do, while Jud was on the outs the entire game. And if the jury really did like Jud more, we didn't see that. We saw two random votes for him in KShinn and Na'Onka that were not explained at all, and instead a crafted relationship with Chase and Na'Onka were shown instead. Maybe the editors intentionally did that for irony when she ended up voting for Jud *shrug*

And really, I'm pretty sure the reason the casual viewers supported Jud's win was because he was a male who was good in challenges and didn't accept Natalie's because she was an underedited female. It's situational, but then again you can also make the argument that if Jud were a female he'd be more liked on Sucks. I'd like to think hardcore fans can appreciate when someone wins because the jury liked them more, but if that is why Jud won, then we weren't really shown how he was liked more because he had scarce jury ties.

I also think that most winners who made the end and won based on the "social game" mantra at least knew what they were doing, while even though Jud can (and did say) that he was "playing it cool" and actually knew what he was doing all he wants, I don't think that was the case? He got blindsided by a blindside that saved him. Same as Sierra, who not too many people consider a great player.

Right, I totally see your point. I don't know. Maybe I expect too much out of us people that call ourselves hardcore fans. I would think that we would be able to see past the edit and understand the game better than the casuals.

I, for one, totally buy that Jud knew what he was doing. This is an ORG site. Have you ever been in the minority in a game? Maybe you couldn't decide who would go or maybe you didn't even know who was going to go. Still, there was ways for you to play the game, wasn't there? You know there was. You can't always see (or even understand) the moves that one makes in that position but they are there. If you're in the minority and your allies are being voted out before you then you ARE doing something right and each round you survive you are in a better position.

Also, I don't understand the hate immunity gets here and on Sucks. It has always been part of the game. It is a key element to the game. Saying that relying on it isn't respectable is just wrong in my opinion. Going back to ORG thing, are you saying immunity isn't fair? That if you ever need to win immunity that you're bad at the game and if you DO overcome the odds and make it to the end that you shouldn't be rewarded? No. Challenge wins shouldn't be what wins you the game like the casuals seem to believe but they should be commended. Not everyone can be the best strategizers and every round SOMEONE has to go. Being good at challenges should be respected just like being good at strategy and being social should. They are all important elements to the game that come together and make Survivor what it is.
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Mar 22 2011, 09:27 PM
*fans Mikester*

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Mar 22 2011, 09:30 PM
Also, I don't understand the hate immunity gets here and on Sucks. It has always been part of the game. It is a key element to the game. Saying that relying on it isn't respectable is just wrong in my opinion. Going back to ORG thing, are you saying immunity isn't fair? That if you ever need to win immunity that you're bad at the game and if you DO overcome the odds and make it to the end that you shouldn't be rewarded? No. Challenge wins shouldn't be what wins you the game like the casuals seem to believe but they should be commended. Not everyone can be the best strategizers and every round SOMEONE has to go. Being good at challenges should be respected just like being good at strategy and being social should. They are all important elements to the game that come together and make Survivor what it is.

The same thing can be said about hidden immunity idols since they are part of a game. Some people like Sandra can't win every challenge so can they really be faulted if they play an idol? ;)
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KOCy
Mar 22 2011, 10:30 PM
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Mar 22 2011, 09:05 PM
Quote:
 
That's what annoys me about most Survivor fans. Most casual viewers accept that Jud won because more jurors liked him but they don't accept that Natalie won because more jurors liked her. GTS/Sucks seems to be the opposite just for the sake of being different. They accept Natalie's win but not Jud's. Now, I'm not saying Chase had anywhere near as horrible of a social game as Hantz but still...why accept it for one person but not for another?


Natalie had a strategy and accomplished what she said she was going to do, while Jud was on the outs the entire game. And if the jury really did like Jud more, we didn't see that. We saw two random votes for him in KShinn and Na'Onka that were not explained at all, and instead a crafted relationship with Chase and Na'Onka were shown instead. Maybe the editors intentionally did that for irony when she ended up voting for Jud *shrug*

And really, I'm pretty sure the reason the casual viewers supported Jud's win was because he was a male who was good in challenges and didn't accept Natalie's because she was an underedited female. It's situational, but then again you can also make the argument that if Jud were a female he'd be more liked on Sucks. I'd like to think hardcore fans can appreciate when someone wins because the jury liked them more, but if that is why Jud won, then we weren't really shown how he was liked more because he had scarce jury ties.

I also think that most winners who made the end and won based on the "social game" mantra at least knew what they were doing, while even though Jud can (and did say) that he was "playing it cool" and actually knew what he was doing all he wants, I don't think that was the case? He got blindsided by a blindside that saved him. Same as Sierra, who not too many people consider a great player.

Right, I totally see your point. I don't know. Maybe I expect too much out of us people that call ourselves hardcore fans. I would think that we would be able to see past the edit and understand the game better than the casuals.

I, for one, totally buy that Jud knew what he was doing. This is an ORG site. Have you ever been in the minority in a game? Maybe you couldn't decide who would go or maybe you didn't even know who was going to go. Still, there was ways for you to play the game, wasn't there? You know there was. You can't always see (or even understand) the moves that one makes in that position but they are there. If you're in the minority and your allies are being voted out before you then you ARE doing something right and each round you survive you are in a better position.

Also, I don't understand the hate immunity gets here and on Sucks. It has always been part of the game. It is a key element to the game. Saying that relying on it isn't respectable is just wrong in my opinion. Going back to ORG thing, are you saying immunity isn't fair? That if you ever need to win immunity that you're bad at the game and if you DO overcome the odds and make it to the end that you shouldn't be rewarded? No. Challenge wins shouldn't be what wins you the game like the casuals seem to believe but they should be commended. Not everyone can be the best strategizers and every round SOMEONE has to go. Being good at challenges should be respected just like being good at strategy and being social should. They are all important elements to the game that come together and make Survivor what it is.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Sometimes the best move to make is none at all.
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Mikester, I'm not going to quote you because I actually agree with a lot of what you said. I think, for the most part, we're arguing over to different things. Your main point was that Jud shouldn't have won according to the edit and mine is that he should have because of his game and what really happened. I'm not talking about the edit at all. I agree that the season's edit made little sense. They did NOT edit Jud to be the winner (nor did they edit Natalie to be the winner of Samoa for that matter, the winner should never be as ignored as she was :ew ). However, in the actual game Jud deserved to win. He was more liked and he pulled over Nay's vote. Nay, according to the edit :rolleyes: , SHOULD have voted for Chase but she didn't. So they didn't show us something that caused her to vote Jud. As for Marty and Kelly? I've read an interview of Kelly and while out there she was aligned with Chase but she and him never clicked (they're friends now though) but the way she described Jud was like he was a brother to her out there. They were close. Marty and Jud were friends. Marty's vote wasn't about strategy. It was, like almost every vote a juror has ever casted, was for who he liked more. He never liked Chase. Why would he vote for him?
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