| Welcome to JTF Squaretable. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Turning thought | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 17 2012, 09:24 AM (584 Views) | |
| crimsonjoe | Feb 17 2012, 09:24 AM Post #1 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Tossing this thought out to the handlers. Is there anyone on the PVW roster that you don't think could make a viable turn (either face to heel or heel to face) in one cycle and pull it off convincingly? Started thinking if there was a way to pull of Senor Dos Cloak into a heel, and kind of blossomed from there. There's only one character I'm having a hard time coming up with a plausible scenario for- Christopher Black. Everyone else I can come up with a decent scenario to turn them and get them cheered/booed by the fans within a cycle. |
![]() |
|
| Codered | Feb 17 2012, 09:26 AM Post #2 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It would take some strong leg work to make Black a face ... and I'm not sure if fans could trust it for at least two-three cycles right now. This is coming off the heels of one of the ugliest heel acts PVW has seen. SCD would be tough, but it's easier to turn faces heel then heels faces in the eyes of the fans, I think. I would think it would be a tad difficult for the fans to trust Gibson Hayes as a face, but the key there could be HOPE ousting their leader and making his life hell so it could work. Great food for thought I am going to look through the roster and do the same! |
| PVW Website: www.pvwrestling.net | |
![]() |
|
| TheotherJC | Feb 17 2012, 10:03 AM Post #3 |
![]()
Reducto
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It depends... we obviously wouldn't be talking 'true face' to 'true heel' or vice versa, because the distance between them is so great. Guys who walk the line could easily make the turns, but again, they wouldn't be going far, and even more unlikely that they will go to the polar opposite end. I think a heel SCD would be a very interesting thing, as he'd have to give up almost all of his comedic naivete and stop selling every single move. (I'm pretty sure he sold a hiptoss performed on someone else) The face Gibby would be super interesting, as would a face Uncle Frank. Frank especially, as he could effectively play the EXACT same character just pointed at a different character. He'd still be creepy, but the fans would cheer if he were to twist HvD into a pretzel. I could see Black start getting REAL cheers if he were to single out and stalk after HOPE, but it seems to go against his character, AND it fails the 'single cycle' parameter of your question. He'd get cheers, but the second he faced anyone non-HOPE, he'd be boo'd. Hmm... great idea. How would Max and Sal go Heel, in your made up scenarios? |
![]() |
|
| orklad | Feb 17 2012, 10:04 AM Post #4 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The ones that spring to mind as being hard to turn (to me) are: Black Hayes Spectre Livestock and Gutch (they're simply too funny). At least in the long term....anyone can be a face or heel by default for a cycle or so. |
|
Orklad or Don, Lord of Pudding | |
![]() |
|
| crimsonjoe | Feb 17 2012, 10:13 AM Post #5 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
With Max and Sal, I'd have them "Go Hollywood"- talk about the commercials they've been signed up to be on, the interviews they're giving on tv, the chance to be on Conan/Jimmy Fallon/etc. Basically, brag about how 'Hip' they've become to the point that they are beyond annoying. With SCD, I'd go with a "Knight Templar"- go from "this is what the good guys do" to "This is what the good guys do, and I'll MAKE you agree with me." Either that, or gets so obsessed with the idea of being loved by the fans that he starts freaking out about the three fans that boo him, and gets so obsessed that he ends up going in the other direction- "If I can't have EVERYONE cheer me, then NO ONE should cheer me." Hayes- we already have the template in face Rock for Hayes- the arrogant, cocky guy. Heck, I suspect half the audience cheers for him anyways. |
![]() |
|
| ProfessorDoran | Feb 17 2012, 10:44 AM Post #6 |
|
The Learning Tree
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I disagree. I can't possibly find any reason that a person could cheer Gibson Hayes in his current state. Whereas the Rock was arrogant and cocky and over the top in his insults and promos, and you couldn't help but laugh at him, there's nothing to like about Gibson. It would take a total break down of the character for me to buy Gibson as a face, along the lines of Mark Langseth's face turn in the E. Not a gimmick change, but he'd have to own up to all the bad things he did and at least admit that he was a total bag of dicks in the past. |
|
Cole Hamels Fact #1685: The Devil went down to Georgia because he knew if he went to Philadelphia, Cole would strike his ass out. http://mysite.verizon.net/heyjude421/chf/chf.html | |
![]() |
|
| RedRajah | Feb 17 2012, 11:02 AM Post #7 |
|
Shocked Woona is Shocked
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The first thing I would need to do before I'd even consider any sort of realistic face turn for Black would be for him to develop empathy for someone other than himself. Point blank, the man is a sociopathic narcissist. While I'm on record for having Jacob there as a potential humanizing element, I've also not established yet if Black has any sort of respect or considers Jacob to have equal status in their working relationship. At this stage of the game if, by some odd happening, Jacob somehow willingly took a chair shot meant for his client, Black probably still wouldn't give a fuck. The man would have to do some serious atoning. Then again, given how eager PVW fans willingly looked the other way to embrace a man who abused and terrorized his wife, maybe that isn't a tall order after all for a guy who only indulged in petty arson and used vulgar language to a dead kid... ![]() Emily Landis -- like Zach Ryder in a way. She suffers solely for the sake of Fontana's manpain and then is conveniently forgotten afterwards...
|
| And here's where I pretend to be a writer... | |
![]() |
|
| Overly_Critical_Jue | Feb 17 2012, 12:04 PM Post #8 |
![]()
Amigo, I ain't anybody but Juan Vasquez!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yeah, but unlike Zach, I wanted Emily to suffer even more before she was mercifully put out to pasture. What an unlikeable and unsympathetic character. ![]() Also...agree that Hayes wouldn't be easily converted into a face. The Rock was way over-the-top funny and was always pandering for cheers and had easy sing-a-long catchphrases for the marks to latch onto. Gibson is just an a-hole. lol |
![]() |
|
| Flouzemaker | Feb 17 2012, 12:34 PM Post #9 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
As Emily Landis was created to fall in love with a despicable guy and ultimately turn on her brother, she really couldn't credibly be that much of a loveable person herself. I mean... she had to be a little Landis-like, lol. As I knew she'd also play somewhat of a Miss Elizabeth role, I definitely did not want her to be as endearing and lovely as Liz. It would have been way too much... and she would have ended up being even more present, which wasn't the goal. It is tough to imagine that a guy who psychologically abused his wife twice could turn easily, which is why it had to be done slowly, over a long period of time. Now... Randy Savage even roughed up Liz physically, the way he'd grab her by the arm at times, which is something Fontana was never close to... and Macho Man's abuse was repeated on nearly every card and every show for months, and he still turned face with extreme ease. Granted, it was a different time... but despite all the abuse, Liz actually came back into Savage's arms. Emily left for good, and would expected to win custody based on the two instances of psychological abuse. As for other turns... evil guys like Jake Roberts, and inveterate cheats like Flair both turned face with ease, so Chris Black and Gibson Hayes could as well, given the right foil, character growth and circumstances. |
![]() |
|
| Overly_Critical_Jue | Feb 17 2012, 12:39 PM Post #10 |
![]()
Amigo, I ain't anybody but Juan Vasquez!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Counterpoint: Randy Savage was cool. |
![]() |
|
| Flouzemaker | Feb 17 2012, 12:42 PM Post #11 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You're right. It wouldn't have worked if he was a hipster. |
![]() |
|
| crimsonjoe | Feb 17 2012, 12:42 PM Post #12 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Given enough time and circumstances, anyone can turn. For the first eight years of his career, Jeff Jarrett was a confirmed babyface. I think Steamboat was the only top name I can remember who never turned, and if he had been around in the attitude era, I'll bet they could have had a phenomenal heel run with him (like Backlund had in the early 90's, or Bret Hart when he was feuding with Austin). The challenge is to get the turn in one cycle. With only 5-6 sets of shows to make the change. I'm still seeing a Rock analogue in Gibson Hayes (then again, I'm remembering the "American hero" gimmick and the six commercials he built up to trash his opponents when defending both belts). Hayes can be an a-hole, but he can be a funny a-hole... and the fans have always been willing to cheer that archtype. |
![]() |
|
| Overly_Critical_Jue | Feb 17 2012, 12:48 PM Post #13 |
![]()
Amigo, I ain't anybody but Juan Vasquez!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well...then give us a scenario of how it would go down in 5-6 episodes. Because as I see it, it would be a multi-cycle process for the character as he's constructed now. Edit: Let me clarify it a bit. I see it kind of like how the initial Randy Orton face turn failed because Evolution turned on him. He didn't actually have any motivation to change or wanted to be someone different from the arrogant a-hole he was. He was basically forced to, because his stable beat the shit out of him. It's not like he was suddenly remorseful for being a prick. The fans probably realized this and reluctantly cheered for him, but not as much if he suddenly decided to be his own man. It took about 2 or 3 more heel/face turns before they fully bought into him being a face. With Gibby, I see the same problem, as I can't see him suddenly deciding to change his ways without a huge catostrophic event to make it so. Even then, it'd probably take a couple of ass-pulls in storytelling to make the face turn stick. |
![]() |
|
| crimsonjoe | Feb 17 2012, 01:05 PM Post #14 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'll start with Shattered Dreams. PPV: Detson vs. Hayes. In the pre-show, Johnstone assures Hayes that "everything will go according to plan". During the match, Johnstone stays at ringside... Uncle Frank is seen at the top of the aisle... HvD comes through the crowd and stands at ringside... Derek Weaver comes from the other side of the arena to watch. No one does anything during the back-and-forth match. When Detson has Hayes on the ropes, Johnstone comes close to the ring, but doesn't interfere, seeing the ref. Finally, ref bump, Hayes hits the superkick, ref rolls over 1... 2... Johnstone puts Detson's foot on the ropes. Hayes, realizing what's happening, goes after Johnstone- but Weaver distracts the referee while HvD attacks Hayes, DDTing him onto the cement floor, then rolling him back in for Detson to make the three count. The next week, Detson comes out as the champion and newest member of HOPE. Johnstone explains that Hayes thought he was too big for the stable, and he and Detson came to a deal that worked out best for all. Weaver and HvD agree that Detson is a better "team player", while Uncle Frank explains that Mr. Johnstone told him that Hayes had been corrupted, and that we needed a better leader for a Bright and Better Future- Johnny Detson. They also explain that Hayes had a concussion and would most likely retire- which was just as well because then Detson wouldn't have to injure him any more. The next week- another HOPE in-ring, but this one is interviewed by a 'commercial', extolling the virtues of Danish Cannon Fodder, as HvD is verbally mocked. The angry HvD goes looking for the source. Later in the show, we find that he's been attacked, with a sheet of paper near by him: "If you're taking out the best, make sure you finish the job- Red." *** By that point, the crowd's already behind Hayes. He doesn't have to be making goo-goo eyes with the other faces to be cheered by the fans (though an 8 man with HOPE vs. Sinister, SDC, Manson and Hayes wouldn't be out of the question). |
![]() |
|
| crimsonjoe | Feb 17 2012, 01:10 PM Post #15 |
|
The Luther Burger
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
There's a part of me that argues "If the fans are cheering you, you're a face, regardless of the character's own motivations." Sure- it'd take a catastrohpic event like HOPE turning on Hayes for Hayes to get cheered. And that would be needed to trigger him towards being a Rock-like face. But it's possible- and I'd argue that, if PVW were televised, 25% of the audience would be cheering him anyways (just like they cheered Flair, heel Rock, etc.). I really don't think it'd take that much to get people to cheer for Hayes, even if he swore on a stack of bibles that "I'm not a good guy" The Orton face turn didn't fail because people didn't want to cheer for Orton. It failed because, after dumping him from the stable, he was made to look weak by comparison to stable that dumped him. If he had gone through Batista, Flair, and then beaten HHH to regain the belt, he'd have been over as a face at that time. |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · PVW · Next Topic » |





![]](http://z5.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)








7:21 PM Jul 10