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I was right! And I was wrong!
Topic Started: Mar 28 2013, 10:37 PM (1,048 Views)
BigPoppaBuyrate
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Overly_Critical_Jue,Mar 28 2013
09:46 PM
Quote:
 
When have The Rave been presented as anything but goofs that always lose?


When they decisively defeated The Lynches and injured one of them. It was a darker side to them that I don't think was ever really followed up on. They went back to being more lighthearted than dangerous.

Counterpoint...when have The Rave ever portrayed themselves as anything but goofs? You can be a time traveler and also cut a semi-serious promo, I think.

One of the hardest things to do in e-w is to get a comedic character taken as a serious threat. I can understand the frustration. Miyuki Ozaki is #4 in the polls, has won female wrestler of the year about a kajillion times now and IC, she's still otherwise dismissed by most every character as a silly girl that does silly things when all signs should point that she should be taken very seriously. Some feds treat her better...some just roll their eyes at her. It's extremely frustrating.

I think the question here is...can The Rave keep their time traveling gimmick and also become a serious threat? I think so. I don't think a complete character overhaul is needed, but recapturing some of that menace that I saw in The Lynches match would help.

Terry raises a good point... and you know how I hate admitting that.

All comedy characters walk a fine line. Go too silly and you can't be taken as a serious threat. Go too serious and you lose what made the character appealing to begin with.

I don't think The Rave would have to cut some massive shoot promo and say it was all a gimmick to be a serious threat... but there would need to be some modifications to the gimmick.

For instance...

Perhaps losing in the tournament caused a major space-time event where, in the future, now countouts aren't the only way to win... pinfalls and submissions are back. That one thing alone would help me tremendously in taking them more seriously.

Tone down on the made-up words... put a little more edge in the promos... they're tired of being taken lightly... being treated as jokes.

It's not a huge step... it's a series of small ones.

Just my opinion.
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sychosys
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Overly_Critical_Jue,Mar 29 2013
02:46 PM
Quote:
 
When have The Rave been presented as anything but goofs that always lose?


When they decisively defeated The Lynches and injured one of them. It was a darker side to them that I don't think was ever really followed up on. They went back to being more lighthearted than dangerous.

Counterpoint...when have The Rave ever portrayed themselves as anything but goofs? You can be a time traveler and also cut a semi-serious promo, I think.

One of the hardest things to do in e-w is to get a comedic character taken as a serious threat. I can understand the frustration. Miyuki Ozaki is #4 in the polls, has won female wrestler of the year about a kajillion times now and IC, she's still otherwise dismissed by most every character as a silly girl that does silly things when all signs should point that she should be taken very seriously. Some feds treat her better...some just roll their eyes at her. It's extremely frustrating.

I think the question here is...can The Rave keep their time traveling gimmick and also become a serious threat? I think so. I don't think a complete character overhaul is needed, but recapturing some of that menace that I saw in The Lynches match would help.

I literally made everything about that match. I asked Blue if I could write it, I asked the other handlers if The Rave could go over, I asked everyone involved if I could go with an injury angle.

I did all of that, and it never got mentioned again. The Lynches don't care about getting revenge, nobody can bother to recall that Jerby Jezz has a submission finisher. They got Rikishi'd the second they tried being serious.

But que sera sera. Jeremy's happy the way it is, and my heart's not really into it anymore...

EDIT: Wow, that was quite the meltdown! Sorry bout that.
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sychosys
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BigPoppaBuyrate,Mar 29 2013
01:25 PM
I like the idea of a New Breed homage. They were one of my favorite teams in the NWA days. But The Rave and The New Breed are very different creatures.

Is this more what you had in mind?

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JeremyS
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I was happy until I read this thread.

If e-wrestling was anything more than a diversion, I'd probably be more upset. The notion that comedic characters somehow cannot be as good in the ring as serious characters is foolish. This isn't 'real' wrestling, it's e-wrestling. We're doing this to entertain ourselves and others. Since we seem to be doing that, The Rave is successful. I'm not worried that they've lost a couple of matches. I'm certainly not worried that they lost to VU because VU is fantastic. The perception that comedy characters must not be taken seriously in the ring when a match starts is what bothers me. The whole reason they're funny is to set up their opponents to take them lightly.

Let's look at this. There are two ways people tend to look at e-wrestling:
1. Pro wrestling is completely real in this shared universe, and most characters are who they say they are.
2. Pro wrestling is the same in this shared universe as it is in our own, and we're portraying the characters of our characters (if you know what I mean).

I think most of us are at 2 right now, and I'm certain that Blue is. But I write for both types. The Rave's insane story never can get debunked, and things happen that seem to verify their story. But no overtly impossible things happen that couldn't be explained by the company backing the gimmick (like having a replica Stampede Cup trophy exactly like the unrevealed Stampede Cup trophy, only made to seem aged). So The Rave CAN be time travellers if you like to read cards believing that these fights are real (and fighting that way is practical in this universe), and they can be a (hopefully entertaining) gimmick if you read that way. (I'm a type 2 personally)

The way I have tried to portray them is this: they use their schtick to get an advantage in a match. They do it to be underestimated, and they do it to get away with things they otherwise never could. They've used bicycle chains, cars, and police boxes in matches. They get away with a lot more doubleteaming than anyone because they pretend to not know how the rules work. They do this because they are really freaking small. This approach works whether they are real fighters pretending to be time travellers, wrestlers with a time travel gimmick, or actual time travellers trying to save the future.

I wonder if their size has anything to do with it. Style-wise, they're basically the team of Jeff Hardy and Jeff Hardy, and he's IMO a terrible wrestler without a tag partner because he has no realistic way to set up any aerial moves by himself. If that were more of a problem that comedy team, I'd totally understand that, because that's what makes it hard to write their matches.

Speaking out on this isn't a bad thing, Joe. Since we're both handling them, you've a right to advocate for them if you think something is amiss. I think it's easy to recover them because they are over. It is interesting to note how e-wrestling is mirroring pro westling here. How many guys have come along, got themselves over with a large part of the fanbase, never got a push, and everyone railed at Vince McMahon. Chris, you are now officially a Vince Expy.



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BigPoppaBuyrate
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JeremyS,Mar 29 2013
06:26 AM
I was happy until I read this thread.

If e-wrestling was anything more than a diversion, I'd probably be more upset. The notion that comedic characters somehow cannot be as good in the ring as serious characters is foolish. This isn't 'real' wrestling, it's e-wrestling. We're doing this to entertain ourselves and others. Since we seem to be doing that, The Rave is successful. I'm not worried that they've lost a couple of matches. I'm certainly not worried that they lost to VU because VU is fantastic. The perception that comedy characters must not be taken seriously in the ring when a match starts is what bothers me. The whole reason they're funny is to set up their opponents to take them lightly.

Let's look at this. There are two ways people tend to look at e-wrestling:
1. Pro wrestling is completely real in this shared universe, and most characters are who they say they are.
2. Pro wrestling is the same in this shared universe as it is in our own, and we're portraying the characters of our characters (if you know what I mean).

I think most of us are at 2 right now, and I'm certain that Blue is. But I write for both types. The Rave's insane story never can get debunked, and things happen that seem to verify their story. But no overtly impossible things happen that couldn't be explained by the company backing the gimmick (like having a replica Stampede Cup trophy exactly like the unrevealed Stampede Cup trophy, only made to seem aged). So The Rave CAN be time travellers if you like to read cards believing that these fights are real (and fighting that way is practical in this universe), and they can be a (hopefully entertaining) gimmick if you read that way. (I'm a type 2 personally)

The way I have tried to portray them is this: they use their schtick to get an advantage in a match. They do it to be underestimated, and they do it to get away with things they otherwise never could. They've used bicycle chains, cars, and police boxes in matches. They get away with a lot more doubleteaming than anyone because they pretend to not know how the rules work. They do this because they are really freaking small. This approach works whether they are real fighters pretending to be time travellers, wrestlers with a time travel gimmick, or actual time travellers trying to save the future.

I wonder if their size has anything to do with it. Style-wise, they're basically the team of Jeff Hardy and Jeff Hardy, and he's IMO a terrible wrestler without a tag partner because he has no realistic way to set up any aerial moves by himself. If that were more of a problem that comedy team, I'd totally understand that, because that's what makes it hard to write their matches.

Speaking out on this isn't a bad thing, Joe. Since we're both handling them, you've a right to advocate for them if you think something is amiss. I think it's easy to recover them because they are over. It is interesting to note how e-wrestling is mirroring pro westling here. How many guys have come along, got themselves over with a large part of the fanbase, never got a push, and everyone railed at Vince McMahon. Chris, you are now officially a Vince Expy.

Are you saying that we don't write The Rave as serious characters inside the ring? That they're not portrayed as a threat IN THE RING?

Because, to me, that's two separate conversations. Writing them as threats in the ring is one thing. Booking them as a legitimate threat to be World Tag Team Champions is entirely a different story.

We certainly want to write them as threats in the ring as much as we would any handled team. Whether or not they can take the next step beyond that... that's a different topic of debate and discussion.

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JeremyS
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BigPoppaBuyrate,Mar 29 2013
12:18 PM
Because, to me, that's two separate conversations. Writing them as threats in the ring is one thing. Booking them as a legitimate threat to be World Tag Team Champions is entirely a different story.

I'm going off the contents of this thread only, because I've never been dissatisfied with a Rave match. The topic is only tangentally about them for me at this point, as I have not really been unhappy with them in AWA. It's about serious vs comedic characters in general, and it is a discussion worth having. It's one of my sore spots that most feds have a ceiling for comedic characters as that makes no sense to me.

It's not two separate conversations to me, but that's just a point we disagree on. I'm not actually peeved about this, it is simply a discussion.
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orklad
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I've never understood the feeling that comedic characters can't be champions...ESPECIALLY on the tag team side of things.

Tag team promos have more opportunity for back and forth and comedic banter, simply based on the fact that there will be (by necessity) at least 2 characters...and some of my favorite wrestling acts in E Wrestling have been comedic (PAIN being a good example).

::shrugs::
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BigPoppaBuyrate
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JeremyS,Mar 29 2013
09:45 AM
BigPoppaBuyrate,Mar 29 2013
12:18 PM
Because, to me, that's two separate conversations.  Writing them as threats in the ring is one thing.  Booking them as a legitimate threat to be World Tag Team Champions is entirely a different story.

I'm going off the contents of this thread only, because I've never been dissatisfied with a Rave match. The topic is only tangentally about them for me at this point, as I have not really been unhappy with them in AWA. It's about serious vs comedic characters in general, and it is a discussion worth having. It's one of my sore spots that most feds have a ceiling for comedic characters as that makes no sense to me.

It's not two separate conversations to me, but that's just a point we disagree on. I'm not actually peeved about this, it is simply a discussion.

Fair enough.

Let's tackle it from a non-Rave POV then.

I'm not opposed to comedy characters... and I'm not even opposed to pushing them to the moon (see: Epitome Of Cool, Fraternity Boys, Down Boys, Zokugun Sangai) IF the situation merits it.

But I will admit that my favorite comedy characters have a mastery of both worlds.

The perfect comedy characters, to me, are guys like Eddie Van Gibson and Casey James. They can cut a promo that will make you laugh your ass off... but when the situation requires it, they can be deadly serious and send a chill down your spine.

I think that comedy in wrestling requires a certain level of balance for that character to be truly successful - whether that's in real wrestling or e-wrestling.

Colt Cabana is the perfect example. He's a fantastic wrestler and can really make you laugh both in the ring and on the mic. However, when he's in a blood feud like the one he had with Adam Pearce last year, he shifts gears. Wrestling at the highest level is built on rivalries and bitter feuds and it's hard to sell that when one guy is laughing his way through every promo.




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Overly_Critical_Jue
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I will never forgive Blue for killing off Juan Vasquez: drunk Kevin Nash homage.
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BigPoppaBuyrate
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Overly_Critical_Jue,Mar 29 2013
10:45 AM
I will never forgive Blue for killing off Juan Vasquez: drunk Kevin Nash homage.

Vasquez is actually another good example. Jones too for that matter. They both have comedic elements to their characters (especially Jones) but they can bring the fire when it counts.
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guzzdude
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I always thought tag teams were the perfect outlet to get comedy characters over. There's more back and forth banter to allow it (as someone else mentioned) and their shenanigans can lead to wins and what not (Edge/Christian...serious in the ring, total goofballs in their promos, they were great champs). I can picture the Rave having a run on top fairly easily, and I can see them beating any team in the tournament. Would Blue prefer a legit team on top, probably, but I'm sure he'd prefer an active team that is pumping out solid promos and representing the titles the best more than anything else. I think it just takes the right feud to get the Rave over as a real threat, they need some real blue chippers to battle who can't stand their wild antics and are continuously embarrassed by them. I think they have the ability to play face or heel really easily as well as fans seem to enjoy their bizarre behavior.

For me personally, I'd like the made up words toned down a tad, not completely thrown out, but so the promos are readable and I can understand what they are saying and so you know what the "Rave Slang" actually means or at least can made an educated guess. It's just a matter of finding the balance.
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sychosys
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BigPoppaBuyrate,Mar 30 2013
03:42 AM
Colt Cabana is the perfect example.  He's a fantastic wrestler and can really make you laugh both in the ring and on the mic.  However, when he's in a blood feud like the one he had with Adam Pearce last year, he shifts gears.

Bringing this back to Rave-centric discussion, The Rave have done that three times now in the recent past:

1. Lynch Brothers beatdown, put James Lynch out for several months.

2. Clubfoot Jenkins beatdown, led to The Hive making the save to build to their tournament match.

3. Stevie Scott beatdown, left him lying in the ring to build to their tournament match.

Each time they got serious, it was emphatically no-sold on commentary the next time they appeared. So I get the impression that you don't want a serious Rave. Now you say that they can't be treated as a threat unless they act serious.

:facepalm:

:blowup:

I guess, from my point of view, you've already made up your mind that they're not getting pushed regardless of what's done with them.
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Overly_Critical_Jue
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The name of this thread should be renamed to "The Lynches ruin everything".

And I'm going to admit...I have no idea wtf the Rave are saying half the time. I know making up words is part of the act, but it became a distraction somewhere along the line rather than something that makes me enjoy their promos.
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JeremyS
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So I need to put out the glossary, is what you're saying?

Yes, there is a glossary. :-D
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Overly_Critical_Jue,Mar 30 2013
10:21 AM
And I'm going to admit...I have no idea wtf the Rave are saying half the time. I know making up words is part of the act, but it became a distraction somewhere along the line rather than something that makes me enjoy their promos.

Do you avoid going onto Facebook to poke others and let them know that you're Googling the new Bieber Bluray because people from 20 years ago won't know what you're talking about?
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