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SNW (2-15-14) Reaction Thread
Topic Started: Feb 25 2014, 01:58 AM (792 Views)
JeremyS
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BigPoppaBuyrate,Mar 2 2014
05:40 PM
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* If a team was going to move from JTTS to fully handled, I think I might have liked The Northern Lights more than Dichotomy. 


Also agreed. I like Dichotomy but the Lights always seemed like they have real potential to be a great baby face team to me.

It was a close decision for me, but I went with the team that I had more fun writing.
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Overly_Critical_Jue
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Yeah, no. I already called dibs on Sunshine like two months ago. Y'all need to back off.
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RedRajah
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Overly_Critical_Jue,Mar 3 2014
11:30 AM
Yeah, no. I already called dibs on Sunshine like two months ago. Y'all need to back off.

That's it...Sunshine is getting trained by Miyuki. We're all doomed. :P
And here's where I pretend to be a writer...
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dalbellorage
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BigPoppaBuyrate,Mar 2 2014
05:40 PM
Since Dave was really the only one to do full on comments, I'm going to comment on his comments!

Quote:
 
* I think there’s a real danger in Marissa Monet eclipsing Shadoe Rage.  It’s beginning to feel less like she manages Shadoe and more like Shadoe is there to support her.  That, or it seems to be building to Shadoe doing a heel turn on Monet.  Which might be a lot of fun.  Crazy, unhinged heel Shadoe seems like it would rock. 


I think Dave's on target here. Monet's arrival has really seemed to add an odd dimension to Rage's character. And he does sort of seem like the side attraction now where she's the featured player.

I would disagree. You're introducing a new manager and yes, she's coming in at a time when Rage's frustration is boiling over. This is a natural progression from a character who has been cheated by Donnie White repeatedly and not able to get revenge. Marissa hasn't been really a factor in any matches nor promos. It's same Shadoe but just really really frustrated.


Quote:
 
* I think there’s a real danger in Marissa Monet eclipsing Shadoe Rage.  It’s beginning to feel less like she manages Shadoe and more like Shadoe is there to support her.  That, or it seems to be building to Shadoe doing a heel turn on Monet.  Which might be a lot of fun.  Crazy, unhinged heel Shadoe seems like it would rock. 


I think Dave's on target here. Monet's arrival has really seemed to add an odd dimension to Rage's character. And he does sort of seem like the side attraction now where she's the featured player.

As the handler, I would disagree. You're introducing a new manager so yes we need to get some understanding of who she is. And yes, she's coming in at a time when Rage's frustration is boiling over. This is a natural progression from a character who has been cheated by Donnie White repeatedly and not able to get revenge. Marissa hasn't been really a factor in any matches nor promos. It's same Shadoe but just really really frustrated. He's a natural heel that is fighting his instincts. The path to what he wants is often blocked.

But what has Monet done that would make her the main act? Anything she's done is pleading for Shadoe and to make Shadoe better in the AWA. He isn't being obedient. The question is can he fit the AWA mould? Or will he succumb to the dark place inside him?

As for Sandra Hayes, I think she and Donnie are just riffing. it's a fun friendly relationship. Maybe it isn't the classic pro-wrestling trope where the woman is out there to be looked at and not heard, but you get the sense that Sandra Hayes is really one of the guys. Donnie White is supposed to be "goofy as a pet coon." (Probably a really unfortunate choice of words.) Sandra and he feed each other lines. They're a comedy team.

I don't think a woman is overshadowing her wrestler just because she speaks. :)
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Murphy
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dalbellorage,Mar 3 2014
10:57 AM
BigPoppaBuyrate,Mar 2 2014
05:40 PM
Since Dave was really the only one to do full on comments, I'm going to comment on his comments!

Quote:
 
* I think there’s a real danger in Marissa Monet eclipsing Shadoe Rage.  It’s beginning to feel less like she manages Shadoe and more like Shadoe is there to support her.  That, or it seems to be building to Shadoe doing a heel turn on Monet.  Which might be a lot of fun.  Crazy, unhinged heel Shadoe seems like it would rock. 


I think Dave's on target here. Monet's arrival has really seemed to add an odd dimension to Rage's character. And he does sort of seem like the side attraction now where she's the featured player.

I would disagree. You're introducing a new manager and yes, she's coming in at a time when Rage's frustration is boiling over. This is a natural progression from a character who has been cheated by Donnie White repeatedly and not able to get revenge. Marissa hasn't been really a factor in any matches nor promos. It's same Shadoe but just really really frustrated.


Quote:
 
* I think there’s a real danger in Marissa Monet eclipsing Shadoe Rage.  It’s beginning to feel less like she manages Shadoe and more like Shadoe is there to support her.  That, or it seems to be building to Shadoe doing a heel turn on Monet.  Which might be a lot of fun.  Crazy, unhinged heel Shadoe seems like it would rock. 


I think Dave's on target here. Monet's arrival has really seemed to add an odd dimension to Rage's character. And he does sort of seem like the side attraction now where she's the featured player.

As the handler, I would disagree. You're introducing a new manager so yes we need to get some understanding of who she is. And yes, she's coming in at a time when Rage's frustration is boiling over. This is a natural progression from a character who has been cheated by Donnie White repeatedly and not able to get revenge. Marissa hasn't been really a factor in any matches nor promos. It's same Shadoe but just really really frustrated. He's a natural heel that is fighting his instincts. The path to what he wants is often blocked.

But what has Monet done that would make her the main act? Anything she's done is pleading for Shadoe and to make Shadoe better in the AWA. He isn't being obedient. The question is can he fit the AWA mould? Or will he succumb to the dark place inside him?

As for Sandra Hayes, I think she and Donnie are just riffing. it's a fun friendly relationship. Maybe it isn't the classic pro-wrestling trope where the woman is out there to be looked at and not heard, but you get the sense that Sandra Hayes is really one of the guys. Donnie White is supposed to be "goofy as a pet coon." (Probably a really unfortunate choice of words.) Sandra and he feed each other lines. They're a comedy team.

I don't think a woman is overshadowing her wrestler just because she speaks. :)

If you think people are criticizing Monet because she's a woman who speaks, you haven't been paying attention to your own writing.

You write her as someone men should be afraid of because of how physically imposing she is, and as someone who could bodily restrain her man with no problems, no matter how angry he might be. She is both manager and bodyguard to Shadoe Rage. Or at least, that is what she seems like to the people who read her.

There is nothing in your portrayal of Monet that makes me think she is a delicate person who just happens to be a great talker. Which is what I think you think she is, which is made more obvious by the fact that you think people dislike her because she is a woman who speaks.

I get the impression that in your mind, Marissa Monet is a cross between Woman and Miss Elizabeth, when in actuality, she's probably more like Nicole Bass or Chyna in presentation.
------
Murphy
Handled: "Incredible" Idol Austin of Dynasty
Find me on Discord at murphraven#0536 or Google at shawnpmurphy

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dalbellorage
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Murphy,Mar 3 2014
12:03 PM
dalbellorage,Mar 3 2014
10:57 AM
BigPoppaBuyrate,Mar 2 2014
05:40 PM
Since Dave was really the only one to do full on comments, I'm going to comment on his comments!

Quote:
 
* I think there’s a real danger in Marissa Monet eclipsing Shadoe Rage.  It’s beginning to feel less like she manages Shadoe and more like Shadoe is there to support her.  That, or it seems to be building to Shadoe doing a heel turn on Monet.  Which might be a lot of fun.  Crazy, unhinged heel Shadoe seems like it would rock. 


I think Dave's on target here. Monet's arrival has really seemed to add an odd dimension to Rage's character. And he does sort of seem like the side attraction now where she's the featured player.

I would disagree. You're introducing a new manager and yes, she's coming in at a time when Rage's frustration is boiling over. This is a natural progression from a character who has been cheated by Donnie White repeatedly and not able to get revenge. Marissa hasn't been really a factor in any matches nor promos. It's same Shadoe but just really really frustrated.


Quote:
 
* I think there’s a real danger in Marissa Monet eclipsing Shadoe Rage.  It’s beginning to feel less like she manages Shadoe and more like Shadoe is there to support her.  That, or it seems to be building to Shadoe doing a heel turn on Monet.  Which might be a lot of fun.  Crazy, unhinged heel Shadoe seems like it would rock. 


I think Dave's on target here. Monet's arrival has really seemed to add an odd dimension to Rage's character. And he does sort of seem like the side attraction now where she's the featured player.

As the handler, I would disagree. You're introducing a new manager so yes we need to get some understanding of who she is. And yes, she's coming in at a time when Rage's frustration is boiling over. This is a natural progression from a character who has been cheated by Donnie White repeatedly and not able to get revenge. Marissa hasn't been really a factor in any matches nor promos. It's same Shadoe but just really really frustrated. He's a natural heel that is fighting his instincts. The path to what he wants is often blocked.

But what has Monet done that would make her the main act? Anything she's done is pleading for Shadoe and to make Shadoe better in the AWA. He isn't being obedient. The question is can he fit the AWA mould? Or will he succumb to the dark place inside him?

As for Sandra Hayes, I think she and Donnie are just riffing. it's a fun friendly relationship. Maybe it isn't the classic pro-wrestling trope where the woman is out there to be looked at and not heard, but you get the sense that Sandra Hayes is really one of the guys. Donnie White is supposed to be "goofy as a pet coon." (Probably a really unfortunate choice of words.) Sandra and he feed each other lines. They're a comedy team.

I don't think a woman is overshadowing her wrestler just because she speaks. :)

If you think people are criticizing Monet because she's a woman who speaks, you haven't been paying attention to your own writing.

You write her as someone men should be afraid of because of how physically imposing she is, and as someone who could bodily restrain her man with no problems, no matter how angry he might be. She is both manager and bodyguard to Shadoe Rage. Or at least, that is what she seems like to the people who read her.

There is nothing in your portrayal of Monet that makes me think she is a delicate person who just happens to be a great talker. Which is what I think you think she is, which is made more obvious by the fact that you think people dislike her because she is a woman who speaks.

I get the impression that in your mind, Marissa Monet is a cross between Woman and Miss Elizabeth, when in actuality, she's probably more like Nicole Bass or Chyna in presentation.

I was referring to Sandra Hayes as being the woman who speaks. The criticism was that Donnie White should be doing his own promos.

Marissa has never been presented as Ms. Elizabeth or Woman. It'd be daft to think that. It's not a Randy/Elizabeth pairing with the Macho Man protecting the weak woman. Never has been. She's his partner fully.
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Murphy
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dalbellorage,Mar 3 2014
01:08 PM

I was referring to Sandra Hayes as being the woman who speaks.  The criticism was that Donnie White should be doing his own promos.

Marissa has never been presented as Ms. Elizabeth or Woman.  It'd be daft to think that.  It's not a Randy/Elizabeth pairing with the Macho Man protecting the weak woman.  Never has been.  She's his partner fully.


But she isn't his full partner. She is clearly the dom in the relationship. You're putting her over at your own guy's expense. You just don't see how emasculating your portrayal her is, which makes Shadoe look weak by comparison.

She does nothing but take away from the person the focus should be on, which is Shadoe. Marissa Monet is never going to wrestle an AWA match.
------
Murphy
Handled: "Incredible" Idol Austin of Dynasty
Find me on Discord at murphraven#0536 or Google at shawnpmurphy

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- Ric Flair, 1985
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Murphy,Mar 3 2014
01:31 PM
dalbellorage,Mar 3 2014
01:08 PM

I was referring to Sandra Hayes as being the woman who speaks.  The criticism was that Donnie White should be doing his own promos.

Marissa has never been presented as Ms. Elizabeth or Woman.  It'd be daft to think that.  It's not a Randy/Elizabeth pairing with the Macho Man protecting the weak woman.  Never has been.  She's his partner fully.


But she isn't his full partner. She is clearly the dom in the relationship. You're putting her over at your own guy's expense. You just don't see how emasculating your portrayal her is, which makes Shadoe look weak by comparison.

She does nothing but take away from the person the focus should be on, which is Shadoe. Marissa Monet is never going to wrestle an AWA match.


My only response to that is Rage finally made an AWA top five story. That never happened when he was solo.

There's a longer game afoot than a couple of SNWs. Relationships are things of turns. Sometimes you lead where you are strong and you follow where you are weak. If you're thinking you'll see the same relationship as in SPW where Rage was meant to be subservient you're wrong. This is all about getting Shadoe to where he wants to be.
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Murphy
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Guest,Mar 3 2014
02:13 PM
Murphy,Mar 3 2014
01:31 PM
dalbellorage,Mar 3 2014
01:08 PM

I was referring to Sandra Hayes as being the woman who speaks.  The criticism was that Donnie White should be doing his own promos.

Marissa has never been presented as Ms. Elizabeth or Woman.  It'd be daft to think that.  It's not a Randy/Elizabeth pairing with the Macho Man protecting the weak woman.  Never has been.  She's his partner fully.


But she isn't his full partner. She is clearly the dom in the relationship. You're putting her over at your own guy's expense. You just don't see how emasculating your portrayal her is, which makes Shadoe look weak by comparison.

She does nothing but take away from the person the focus should be on, which is Shadoe. Marissa Monet is never going to wrestle an AWA match.


My only response to that is Rage finally made an AWA top five story. That never happened when he was solo.

There's a longer game afoot than a couple of SNWs. Relationships are things of turns. Sometimes you lead where you are strong and you follow where you are weak. If you're thinking you'll see the same relationship as in SPW where Rage was meant to be subservient you're wrong. This is all about getting Shadoe to where he wants to be.

And where is that, exactly? I don't see where this goes except at some point one has to turn on the other, and then what do you do? We're back to Monet is not going to wrestle a match in AWA, and you've done all of this build for... what? Another match with de Klerk?
------
Murphy
Handled: "Incredible" Idol Austin of Dynasty
Find me on Discord at murphraven#0536 or Google at shawnpmurphy

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Murphy,Mar 3 2014
02:29 PM
Guest,Mar 3 2014
02:13 PM
Murphy,Mar 3 2014
01:31 PM
dalbellorage,Mar 3 2014
01:08 PM

I was referring to Sandra Hayes as being the woman who speaks.  The criticism was that Donnie White should be doing his own promos.

Marissa has never been presented as Ms. Elizabeth or Woman.  It'd be daft to think that.  It's not a Randy/Elizabeth pairing with the Macho Man protecting the weak woman.  Never has been.  She's his partner fully.


But she isn't his full partner. She is clearly the dom in the relationship. You're putting her over at your own guy's expense. You just don't see how emasculating your portrayal her is, which makes Shadoe look weak by comparison.

She does nothing but take away from the person the focus should be on, which is Shadoe. Marissa Monet is never going to wrestle an AWA match.


My only response to that is Rage finally made an AWA top five story. That never happened when he was solo.

There's a longer game afoot than a couple of SNWs. Relationships are things of turns. Sometimes you lead where you are strong and you follow where you are weak. If you're thinking you'll see the same relationship as in SPW where Rage was meant to be subservient you're wrong. This is all about getting Shadoe to where he wants to be.

And where is that, exactly? I don't see where this goes except at some point one has to turn on the other, and then what do you do? We're back to Monet is not going to wrestle a match in AWA, and you've done all of this build for... what? Another match with de Klerk?

You have this weird view that the goal is to get Marissa a match in the AWA or something. If RAge turns on Marissa then he's the unhinged, unredeemable heel that Dave G was talking about. Or maybe he once and for all snuffs out the irrational anger that drives him and becomes a true fan favorite rather than being the face by default. The point is to grow Rage's character. There's got to be some catalyst for change, for growth of the character other than fitting the needs of plot.

As for where Rage gets to there is a feud with White to complete and then we go from there, isn't it? I've been trying to set up Rage's next feud but it's not always easy to find unclaimed partners in the AWA. You may not like where Marissa has taken him (Even though I doubt you were following or were a fan of the character before given our sole interactions about three years ago regarding SPW) but she hasn't held him hostage, either.

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Murphy
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Guest,Mar 3 2014
03:05 PM
Murphy,Mar 3 2014
02:29 PM
Guest,Mar 3 2014
02:13 PM
Murphy,Mar 3 2014
01:31 PM
dalbellorage,Mar 3 2014
01:08 PM

I was referring to Sandra Hayes as being the woman who speaks.  The criticism was that Donnie White should be doing his own promos.

Marissa has never been presented as Ms. Elizabeth or Woman.  It'd be daft to think that.  It's not a Randy/Elizabeth pairing with the Macho Man protecting the weak woman.  Never has been.  She's his partner fully.


But she isn't his full partner. She is clearly the dom in the relationship. You're putting her over at your own guy's expense. You just don't see how emasculating your portrayal her is, which makes Shadoe look weak by comparison.

She does nothing but take away from the person the focus should be on, which is Shadoe. Marissa Monet is never going to wrestle an AWA match.


My only response to that is Rage finally made an AWA top five story. That never happened when he was solo.

There's a longer game afoot than a couple of SNWs. Relationships are things of turns. Sometimes you lead where you are strong and you follow where you are weak. If you're thinking you'll see the same relationship as in SPW where Rage was meant to be subservient you're wrong. This is all about getting Shadoe to where he wants to be.

And where is that, exactly? I don't see where this goes except at some point one has to turn on the other, and then what do you do? We're back to Monet is not going to wrestle a match in AWA, and you've done all of this build for... what? Another match with de Klerk?

You have this weird view that the goal is to get Marissa a match in the AWA or something. If RAge turns on Marissa then he's the unhinged, unredeemable heel that Dave G was talking about. Or maybe he once and for all snuffs out the irrational anger that drives him and becomes a true fan favorite rather than being the face by default. The point is to grow Rage's character. There's got to be some catalyst for change, for growth of the character other than fitting the needs of plot.

As for where Rage gets to there is a feud with White to complete and then we go from there, isn't it? I've been trying to set up Rage's next feud but it's not always easy to find unclaimed partners in the AWA. You may not like where Marissa has taken him (Even though I doubt you were following or were a fan of the character before given our sole interactions about three years ago regarding SPW) but she hasn't held him hostage, either.

I am trying to make sense of your explanation. Because as far as I've been led to believe, Shadoe Rage is supposed to be Randy Savage. And Randy Savage was never the bottom in the relationship as Rage clearly is to Monet right now.

If you're feuding with Donnie White, why have you been spending so much time roughing up de Klerk on TV shows? You could do what you were doing with each member of the JTTS roster, but you're zeroing in on this one JTTS.

It's probably hard to find feud partners because you're effectively ignoring the one you have right now in favor of a wrestler nobody handles.

I'm not going to try to soothe your bruised ego because you can't get over what was an honest assessment of Monet from three years ago (and one which, you're right, has not changed in the last 3 years. But mostly because she hasn't changed, either). I am just letting you know what people were more or less talking about with their opinions of the Rage/Monet pairing.

Miss Elizabeth never bossed around Randy Savage. Neither did Sherri Martel. Or Gorgeous George. Or any of his valets or managers. So if you think you've been putting a good spin on either heel or face Savage, you've missed the mark by quite a bit. If anything right now, Monet is Randy Savage, and Rage is Miss Elizabeth. That has to change.
------
Murphy
Handled: "Incredible" Idol Austin of Dynasty
Find me on Discord at murphraven#0536 or Google at shawnpmurphy

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DaveG
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I think the problem is that there's a disconnect between conception and execution. Its a problem I run into often when I do my own work. I might think I'm writing something one way, but it reads as something else.

In theory, you're trying to add another dimension to Shadoe Rage by having Monet, I don't know, humanize him, or calm him down. But in execution, its a lot of Monet basically bossing Shadoe around, telling him what to do, nagging him about injuries, and just generally leading him around by the nose. In concept, Monet might be directing Rage and channeling his aggression, but in execution, Shadoe has become henpecked and bossed around. Further, you've got Monet coming out and doing all of the talking for Rage in at least one segment on this show, and that just reinforces the sense that Monet is the alpha in the relationship. In execution, what we see is the big talking, grandiose maniac being put in the corner by his overbearing wife.

(And for the record, and everyone can back me up, I've been consistent in saying I liked Rage as Macho Man, I've said it in both JTF and in the hangout.)

In other words, what you think is building up your character is actually cutting him off at the knees.

The idea of Rage and Monet as equal partners just doesn't work for me conceptually. Only tag team partners should be equals, and then not always. If Monet is his manager, then she needs to be his support, not his equal. I've been watching wrestling since 1984, and the only time the manager is equally or more prominent than his or her charge are the times when the manager is the primary act and the wrestler is there supporting them. And that simply doesn't work with Rage. Rage is a larger than life madman, it doesn't make any sense for him to suddenly shrink from the spotlight or be told what to do.

Unless, of course, it is all leading to a heel turn, then there is a logical progression to the story. But as of now, I don't see it.
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RedRajah
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And again, thanks for the kind words about Tony, Dave. He's my first "pure" serious babyface & power guy so I'm hoping to find the right balance without going cornball schmaltz. :wave:
And here's where I pretend to be a writer...
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JeremyS
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DaveG,Mar 3 2014
04:10 PM
In other words, what you think is building up your character is actually cutting him off at the knees.

I can think of a number of ways that this leads up to something, though. I think that pointing out the possible pitfalls of a storyline is one thing, but we ought to bear in mind that it is all in-progress. One would (hopefully) not review a novel after only reading half of it.
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DaveG,Mar 3 2014
04:10 PM
I think the problem is that there's a disconnect between conception and execution. Its a problem I run into often when I do my own work. I might think I'm writing something one way, but it reads as something else.

In theory, you're trying to add another dimension to Shadoe Rage by having Monet, I don't know, humanize him, or calm him down. But in execution, its a lot of Monet basically bossing Shadoe around, telling him what to do, nagging him about injuries, and just generally leading him around by the nose. In concept, Monet might be directing Rage and channeling his aggression, but in execution, Shadoe has become henpecked and bossed around. Further, you've got Monet coming out and doing all of the talking for Rage in at least one segment on this show, and that just reinforces the sense that Monet is the alpha in the relationship. In execution, what we see is the big talking, grandiose maniac being put in the corner by his overbearing wife.

(And for the record, and everyone can back me up, I've been consistent in saying I liked Rage as Macho Man, I've said it in both JTF and in the hangout.)

In other words, what you think is building up your character is actually cutting him off at the knees.

The idea of Rage and Monet as equal partners just doesn't work for me conceptually. Only tag team partners should be equals, and then not always. If Monet is his manager, then she needs to be his support, not his equal. I've been watching wrestling since 1984, and the only time the manager is equally or more prominent than his or her charge are the times when the manager is the primary act and the wrestler is there supporting them. And that simply doesn't work with Rage. Rage is a larger than life madman, it doesn't make any sense for him to suddenly shrink from the spotlight or be told what to do.

Unless, of course, it is all leading to a heel turn, then there is a logical progression to the story. But as of now, I don't see it.

There is a logical progression to the character development.

Rage isn't slavishly Randy Savage, though. Yeah the double axehandle and the craziness is Savage, but he isn't a copy of him. I think that may be part of the big disconnect. Rage has always inverted that Savage dynamic. Crazy and dangerous inside the ring, but outside yes the woman does lead. The Prophets motto was "The female of the species is more dangerous than the male." If people remember the Prophets of Rage, their finisher was actually Pizzazz's interference with a bulldog off the top.

It's actually been quite enlightening to have this discussion. It's given me some ideas.
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