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The Degredation of Our Society; AKA "FUCKING STUPID IDIOT KIDS"
Topic Started: Feb 24 2007, 02:23 AM (147 Views)
Yoyo
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The Voice of Reason in an Unreasonable world

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/19/homeless.attacks/index.html

*rubs temple* While i could ramble about this until i need to wake up, which is in about... i dunno, six hours? I'd rather just copy and paste the ramblings of other people from Penny Arcade and ramble about it on my own after getting some sleep.

Enjoy the Degradation of our society, people, cause it's bastards like THAT that're causing it.

before reading below, it helps if you click that link there to learn the first story. then to go down to the other peoples stuff.

Quote:
 
Here we go again
Mon, February 19 2007 - 07:00 PM
by: Gabe

You might have seen this story on CNN about the teens that murdered a homeless guy and then equated it to the sort of thrill one might get from a “violent video game”. There will be plenty of articles focusing on these kids and their crime. I’d like to take a second and talk about the parents of these teenagers instead. It is the job of a parent to teach their children certain rules. Obviously the rules themselves and the emphasis each family places on them will vary, but there are certain universal constants that these parents obviously failed to pass on.

Things the parents of these kids failed to teach them(in order of their severity):

1. Don’t drink until you’re 21.

Now this is a tough one. The 15 year old boys have admitted they were sharing beers with the homeless man. This is a difficult rule to enforce with many kids and that’s why I’ve listed first.

2. Don’t do drugs.

In addition to their beers these lads told investigators they had just finished rolling some phat doobie blunts, or whatever it is they do these days. This is an important one but also very difficult to enforce. I’d say it’s a notch above drinking but we’re still dealing with pretty common teenager issues.

3. Don’t murder people.

Ah here’s a big one. I wonder, did the parents simply avoid the “don’t murder people” talk the way other parents might avoid the “sex” talk? Maybe one day as the father was running off to work the mother called behind him,” Don’t forget, you promised to talk to Chris about not murdering people today!” The husband already half way out the door would holler back “Yeah yeah, I’ll do it when I get home tonight.”

4. Don’t take shit out of your butt and rub it on the hobo you just killed.

To me this seems like the easiest lesson of all. My son is only two and already he’s coming to understand that “poops” belong in the potty. How did this kid get to the age of fifteen years old without learning this? Here’s how easy this one is:

Hey son, come here real quick.

Yeah Dad?

Don’t take shit out of your butt.

Sure thing Dad.

Done! How hard was that? What kind of crazy fuck takes poop from his butt and rubs it on someone? I’ll tell you right now I’ve never seen that in Grand Theft Auto. These kids were twelve kinds of nuts and that’s a fact. Their parents either made them nuts or weren’t paying attention while they went nuts on their own. I don’t know which scenario is worse.

-Gabe out


Quote:
 

A rare opportunity
Wed, February 21 2007 - 12:16 PM
by: Gabe

Yesterday I made a post about the teenagers that murdered the homeless guy and then blamed it on violent games. These kids have given the media their angle and just like all the other cases where games are mentioned no one will ever look any further. No one will ask what their family life was like, what their parents were like, what the kid was like before all this happened. Games did it and that’s the end of the story.

In my post I took the absolute extreme opposite approach. I laid blame completely on the parents and that was intentional. Penny Arcade is a satire site and people come here to laugh or get angry and that’s what we try to provide. I will admit that deep down as the father of a two year old I also want to believe that I as a parent can shape my kid into a decent human being. If I don’t believe that then…well I just have to believe that right now.

With that said I’m perfectly aware that the reality of the situation was somewhere between the two extremes. I know full well that violent games did not create this killer and I also know that his parents did not make him a murderer. Nothing outside of a comic strip and a goofy blog is ever that simple.

The sad truth is that the reality we’re talking about here would probably never actually see the light of day. The media will tell the story they want to tell regardless and that story will be about violent games. The parents of these kids will be lucky to get two lines in an article about the crime. If they tell a reporter that their son hardly played games or that he was fucked up long before they bought a Playstation do you really think that will make it into the final article? You’d never see that side of the story, not in a million years.

But you’re about to.

I am about to share with you an email I received from a Penny Arcade reader. She also happens to be involved in this case but obviously she’d like to remain anonymous. She has agreed to let me share her email with all of you and I can’t thank her enough for that. Like I said before, I know why most people come to Penny Arcade. You come every other day looking for a joke and a laugh. What you’re about to read isn’t a joke. It’s an extremely personal email sent by a very brave woman and I’m honored to share it with you.

Gabe,

Your news post about the kids and the homeless man yesterday made me sick to my stomach, before I even read the CNN article. I knew what it was going to be about before even reading the article. It was not the article itself, or even your post that made me sick, it was the fact that I know this boy. Or, rather that I could be considered one of the “parents” of this boy.

The boy’s father and I have been together for almost seven years, and I had what I guess could be called a “stepmother” relationship with the kid. To say that living with this kid was hell would be a complete understatement.

I don’t think I have ever actively hated anyone in my entire life, but this kid just makes my blood boil.

As I write this, my teeth are clenched, my hands are shaking, and my whole body is seething with the hatred I feel for this kid and what he has done. Seeing the article brings back all the horrible memories from when he lived with us.

He was constantly in trouble in school, with the cops, with us, with his mother, and with anyone else who was an authority figure. Not a week went by that the school or the cops wouldn’t call us for something. His attitude was basically “fuck you, I don’t have to listen to you” said with a shrug.

We tried absolutely everything we could think of to get him to behave like a normal human being… we tried groundings, negative reinforcement / punishment, positive reinforcement, counseling, and anything and everything the counselors suggested. We tried to get him interested and involved in extracurricular activities, like hockey, drama, music, art, anything, but he got himself kicked out of every group he was in with his “make me” attitude. When we would ground him, we took away everything. No TV, no computer, no phone, no leaving the house, no snacks or junk food…. Everything. When he was grounded, he was only allowed to sit in his room and read or draw. He was actually a pretty good artist, and we tried to encourage him to spend his time working with his talent. He would just sit there and take it… the groundings had absolutely no affect on him at all. Most of the time, he didn’t even remember why he was being grounded. At the end of it, we would ask him if it was worth it to have everything taken away in exchange for what he did… he usually just shrugged. He could be grounded for weeks, or a month at a time, and then the very next day would do something to get back in trouble again. Most kids get grounded or punished a couple of times, and then they want to avoid having to go through it again… not this kid, nothing seemed to phase him.

And we’re not talking the usual teenager stuff, like coming home late, or refusing to do the dishes. We’re talking stealing cars, setting fires, drinking, getting picked up for drugs, beating up handicapped kids at school (yes, really) stealing things out of our house… all with this “I’ll do whatever the fuck I want” attitude.

We had absolutely no idea what else we could do. We already had him in counseling, and we did everything the counselors suggested. We tried rewarding his good behavior (what little there was) to try to get him to see that when he behaves like a normal human being, things are good and people enjoy being around him. Nothing phased him at all.

Then, things took an even worse turn when he decided that whenever he didn’t get his way, or we did something he didn’t like, he told his counselors and teachers that we were abusing him. (Never happened.) And for some inexplicable reason, everybody believed him. I understand that child abuse is a very serious situation, and that they have to take every possible case seriously, but this was clearly a case of him manipulating people to get what he wanted. We had people from the school, cops, and social services over at our house or calling us on a weekly basis stating some new abuse that he had made up. At 14, the boy was already 6’3” and over 200 pounds. Of course, there was never a mark on him, because no such abuse ever took place.

One particular night (cops involved, as always) he decided that he didn’t have to listen to anything we said, and that he wasn’t coming home. He went to live with his mother, where things got worse by the day. He stole everything out of her home and sold it. He invited gang-bangers and drug dealers to her home, and she feared for her safety constantly. She called the cops numerous times because she feared for her safety, but again, the boy said that she abused him, and the cops always took his side. (For reference, the mother is about 5’3” and barely clocks in at 115.) He planted a loaded gun in her room, called the cops and told them that it belonged to the mother’s boyfriend. The boyfriend actually ended up serving time because of this fucking bastard kid. She had two other young children in the house, and the gun and the abuse charges were an intentional plot to get the other two kids taken away from her. She tried restraining orders against the kid, but since he was a minor, they wouldn’t allow it. Every time he got picked up, she pleaded with the cops to take him to jail, maybe that would finally get though to him, but they just kept bringing him home to her. I don’t understand why everyone who was involved with this kid just blindly took this juvenile delinquent’s word over all else!

The night that he and his friends murdered that poor homeless man, the mother said that he was acting particularly cocky. Then he threatened to kill her. We had absolutely no idea of what he had done until they found the man’s body. He was immediately waived into adult court (at 15) and sentenced to 15 years. We were all absolutely sick with grief for this man.

We were also sick with guilt… “What could we have done differently?” was a constant question in all of our heads. After the kid was sentenced, all the cops, counselors, social workers, and people at the school that had been dealing with him contacted us and his mother and apologized for not taking us seriously. They are all trained to take all accusations of child abuse seriously, and as a part of that they blindly took the kid’s side for everything, and dismissed us as “the lying abusers”. Many of them told us that they wished they would have taken our pleas for help seriously. Everyone thought we were exaggerating about how fucked up this kid was.

I completely agree with your statement of “These kids were twelve kinds of nuts and that’s a fact.” But the reason I am writing this to you is that, after reading your news post yesterday, I felt that I needed to defend the boy’s parents. His mother and father and I did absolutely everything we could think of to try to keep this kid in line. Even the kinds of things that normal teenagers get in trouble for would have been a blessing compared to what we’ve been through with him.

What I gave you today is a very small sampling of the kinds of things we were dealing with every single fucking day with this kid. When people hear about what he’s done, I can always sense the “I’m sure there was something you could have done” comment coming up. What would you have done? How do you deal with a kid like this? Like I said, we did everything the counselors suggested, and nothing seemed to matter.

If you want to add another element to the “nature vs. nurture” idea, this boy has a brother. Both boys were raised in the same house, with the same values. The brother has developed into a kind, considerate, responsible, and independent young man. He is currently working his butt off right now to save up money to go to school for architecture. The only thing I regret is that we spent so much time and energy dealing with the bad kid that this boy missed out on having a normal family life with a normal sibling relationship.

I am sorry this got so long. I have been reading PA since the very beginning, and I feel that both of you are very much like me. I think we are the same age (29) and I have been a lifelong gamer like the two of you. I can’t stand hearing about the so-called correlation between games and real-life violence. Video games DID NOT make this kid who he was, and it’s unfortunate that the correlation is there.

The thing that really gets me with this whole thing is that the kid knows full well that by equating what he’s done to a video game, that he will generate controversy and media coverage. It makes me sick that the media is jumping all over this, because that is exactly the result that he wants.

The only good thing (if there is such a thing) that has come out of this whole ordeal is that the kid is behind bars. That is exactly where he needs to be.

Again, I’m sorry about the length of this. Thanks for allowing me to “tell my side” of the story.

So there you go. There’s the other side of the story. He’s decided to use videogames as a scapegoat because as crazy as he is, he’s not stupid. He knows exactly what he’s doing. The sad thing is that it will probably work.

-Gabe out


So there it is. Why do i bring this up here? because it PISSES ME OFF, that's why. the entire ordeal makes me sick to my stomach.

START MAKING CONVERSATION ABOUT IT.
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Raymond Merlo
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Some people in this world are born evil. You can try and help them, try and make them better, but in the end, it comes down to the person themself. This kid, this....monster, reminds me all to well of somene I know: My own brother. Some people can't be good. I don't know why, it's just part of who they are. those kind of people need to be locked up.
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Zero.exe


What do you know about 'evil'? Nobody is born evil. We all come out as a little child with no intellect and aren't toilet trained. Humans are very different, are unique to one another, simply because we experience a different type of life.

Think of us as a compound made of two elements. Us, and Life. Life is a 'random' element, and has different effects everytime. Humans are just the pure element.

Human + Life = Random Result

Frankly, it's not the kids, or the parents, or the media to blame.

BLAME THE DAMN HOBO!

Why the fucking hell did he share his possessions when he had none whatsoever left? why the hell did he even invite three dumbasses to his home and expect something different?

Why the hell is he a fucking hobo in the first place?

To see it in chronological order:

No Hobo = No Invited Dumbasses = No drunk beatings = No death

However, for some reason, there is a hobo, and thus: shit happens.

But since it would be rude and morally unethical to blame an already dead person, I guess the fault lies with the people the kids surround themselves with, excluding the parents.

Frankly, looking from the point of view of the kid who was a dumbshit:

Quote:
 
My friends let me do what I want, but they warn me.
My parents tell me not to do anything, thus making me do it.

My friends do not put me in a room for weeks and months and ask me to doodle on paper.
My parents do.

My friends share their weed supply with me and drugs too.
My parents take my weed supply and drugs from me with the help of the police.


And some other things I can't be bothered to mention right now.

Firstoff, I find it sad thata kid has to go to jail by killing a guy down on his luck. I am not sad that the kid is going to jail, I am sad that the hobo died.

Secondly, I think we need to blame this all on someone who caused this. Smoke doesn't start without fire and Fire doesn't start without sparks and oil. We're going to blame the guy who said the words:

"I'm gonna hit him."

Or something around those lines. See, who has friends like that who beat up and kill people with their own barbeque pitch? Not me,and if you do,get away from them. Get away from them very quickly.

Secondly, about the police and the gun thing... Well, I don't know who to blame.That e-mail makes the police sound like brain-dead humans and makes the kid calculating. Eitherways, there should not be a gun in the house where everyone can see it.

I'm going to get off this topic before it ejects into something stupid and pointless, because again, we are dealing with the past, when we should always be mindful of the present. Talking about this after it's happened is not going to help.
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Ashidlun.EXE
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Mike: Well then.

zero...some are born evil some are not we are born to be who we are, i dont know who i am as yet but i know this... i am of the inner calm, no man can drag out my darkest side unless i allow it, but even the i am in control. i was born that way and i will be that way. and yes.....BLAME THE GOD FORSAKEN HOBO
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Zero.exe


No. NOBODY IS BORN EVIL. SAY IT.

I ask you this. How can you tell a 'evil' baby from the 'good' baby when they're all asleep and have nothing abnormal about them?
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HiroTsukasa
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Sorcerer Siezing Sorcerer

Actually there are two camps that debate this... one views that when a person is born they are a clean slate to be shaped and the other goes with the idea that people have some natural predispositions to certain things.

Personally, that argument of clean slate stands for me in reagards to actual young children... If they were 15 years old then they're beyond the age I qualify kids as having that "innocence" factor. There's no way they can act like they didn't know what they were doing; blaming video games is just a scape goat.

That original poster makes a good point as well... so many times in issues like these usually there's a level of bad parenting involved. It's much easier in our society to throw a kid down in front of the TV on cable or with video games and let the "Magic Box" raise them instead of doing it yourself.
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Absolute Zero
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Despite the fact that I detest GTA games, I never blame them, or any games for the sensless things people do these days. After reading this entire article, I am deeply sickened, and will tap into my latent philosiphical side to say what I must say...

Zero, though the hobo wasn't 100% right, from what I understand, at the same time, the bastard isn't why the boy has such a horrid attitude. After all, the real problem is likely something that the foolish media has yet to think of.

There are several possibilities of which none of us are likely to ever suggest. One thing I failed to see mentioned in the entire post, which I'm sure has been thought of, is the fact that friends can be a major factor in a child's developement. Especially older friends that tend to manipulate you into a replica of themselves. Hey, it almost happened to me.

One of my eldest cousins was a High School drop out. One summer, my parents let him babysit me and my siblings, unaware that he was training me into a punk and having me treat my sibs like shit. The problem? I was 7, and didn't know better. 'Adults are always right' I kept thinking, and it was easy for me to be brainwashed. If not for my parents being told by my sister (SAZ, who barely learned to talk at her age) I would probably still be that way. It took me awhile, but all my bad habits I learned from my dastard of a cousin melted like butter. The other problem? The aftermath was that my parents feared I would always be like what my cousin tried to make me, and they began to disown me...whao, a little overboard with the info, I'm guessing.

The point is, humans influence other humans, especially small children and young teens. In a child's eyes, more often than never, an older kid is seen as a fountain of wisdom and a pillar of success, and a peer of equal age is seen as someone to base one's traits and interests off of. Perhaps this boy had an influence no one knew about somewhere in his life.

In conclusion, there are too many variables that come up in psycology to make a defined judgement on who made a person the way they are. The fact of the matter is this; a person should be punished by the law based upon the here and now, not what made them the way they are. Prison, as well as being a place to keep criminals locked away, is also a place to give people like this kid solitutde to ponder their life and think about if what they did was even worth the strife. If he breakes the law in any way, he should recieve the law's judgement despite what circumstances made him that way.

It's all very troublesome, but there are too many variables to be pointing fingers anyplace except one; the boy himself. In the end, it was a choice; Do acts of evil, or do acts of good.


ADDITIONAL
~~~~~~~~

I agree with Hiro's statement. Television IS an influence factor, and so are video games, but only if your parenting style is to allow a child to raise itself. Even with a hands off approach, some bonding must be done, to give examples of humanity.
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Raymond Merlo
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Zero.exe
Feb 24 2007, 03:34 PM
What do you know about 'evil'?

More than I have ever wanted to know. The kid who pulled this attack? My brother is EXACTLY like him. My mother is no saint, my dad was the most pathetic human being alive. Me, I try my best, but I'm still far from the best person alive. My brother, though, is pure evil. he has no consideration towards anyone else. The only difference between that kid and my brother is that my brother has not killed anyone, to my knowledge. My mother tries her best, she tries to make sure he does good. She RAISED him to do good. my family has poured almost every penny we have into trying to help him. But nothing, and nobody, can do anything for him, because he won't accept it. From the very BEGINNING, he was trouble. I'm willing to accept that you believe nobody is evil from birth. But you live 1 year in my life, and I DARE you to say otherwise. And maybe, if you have the fortitude to survive that, try 17 more.

[/rant]
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Ravager Hughesy
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Corner text reads: "Octopus deceiving predator with its ink."

Reminds me of my cousin who is still serving his fith year in prison of his 15 year sentence. Why? Same reason as what those kids did.
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Soulsaber
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Statement: I'm plotting your deaths.

One of my cousins was messed up for years but now is doing well. He has a good job and is living well. So just because someone is messed up nowdoes not mean they will be in the future.
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Pancake Mix
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BLARGAHGRHGARR

In my view, ALL people are born evil, and are educated to not be. Proof? Well, take animals. Humans are animals to, right? Right. (Unless your one of those zealots who are Anti-Darwin) Well, A simple way to look at personality is the battle between what you are taught, and your instincts. I'll give you a hypothetical situation:

You're in an argument with someone. That someone is arguing something COMPLETELY against your beliefs, let's say, cannibalism, because I'm fairly certain everyone here agrees with me that it's wrong. However, this stranger comes from a tribe where feasting on the flesh of your kinsman is an acceptable practice. You both have good arguments, and It all boils down to "because". What makes it disgusting to eat another person? There is no reason, other then aesthetics. It's just wrong. We are taught that. On the other hand, this guy was taught that eating human flesh is a noble tradition, much like 4th of July to us Americans, or ThanksGiving. Who's wrong in that situation?

Then again, "evil" itself is an invented concept. Whatever is not the norm of society is percieved as evil. Take the above thing about the Psycho-Kid who the media is having a field day saying he got it all from video games. To the media, games are evil, and I've met some people who think the same. What If I went up to a girl I had no idea about, and made like Grazzt and did some lechery? I'd probably wind up in jail. To the observer, I'm a bastard who goes around feeling people for kicks. But, what if, from my perspective, doing that is a greeting? What If I've been taught that doing that was okay? It didn't hurt her, and what makes the handshake so special anyway?

Back to what I was saying, it all depends on what you are taught. We are taught not to hit our siblings at a young age. However, if we get mad, we'll do it anyway. And we're punished for it. Justly so, otherwise we'd do it more.

The events of the past are important to. Think what life today would be like if say, the civil rights movement never occured. We look back on the years of slavery as an evil blotch on humanities record. But, if certain events never happened, we'd still be whipping people to do our work for us. Scary thought, no?

Bottom line, there is no good and evil. There is Normal, and there is different.
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Zero.exe


No one is born evil, because 'evil' and 'good' exists with morals. We born with the need to survive. How you look at it is the problem.
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Pancake Mix
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BLARGAHGRHGARR

Explain the logic behind Morals.
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Zero.exe


Because 'morals' are what causes you to define 'right' and 'wrong'. You are born with no morals, little intelligence, no sense of right or wrong and how things should be. You are born with instinct.

Instinct is the thing in which the human mind does the job it's been burned to, which is the same as all other animals. All animals have the same instinct: To Survive.

Thus, simply to fulfil our instinct to survive, we would eat other animals, but notice this. No animal would eat its own children. A tigress would not eat its own cub. All animals with some level of sentience or morals or is capable of caring for their child will not eat their child, and this applies to humans as well.

No mother would eat her baby, whether it be in the Caveman period or today.

For example, 'morals' are simply the rules which you set up to define good and bad.

To look at it from the good side of this, the guy was ridding the world of one useless person. So to some, the guy was doing some good. But to most, they see it as the guy beating up the hobo and nobody deserves to be done that. So it's seen as 'evil'.

A standard person, who has been taught bpropoerly by his parents, will have morals against unethical purposes. For example, they call 'cannibalism' wrong, because humans are not supposed to feed on each other.

And in fact, very few species with sentience actually cannibalize on each other. There are some, but those are animals who do not think very much. For a human tocannabalize on another, it would need someone to place the concept inside first.

People who are unaware of what cannibalism means have to rely on instinct. Putting two children, aged 3, in a room for six hours will have them crying, complaining, but you'll notice they don't eat each other.

That's because they don't know the concept of cannabalism and thus cannot be a cannabal.

From this, you can infer. No one is born evil.
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Pancake Mix
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BLARGAHGRHGARR

Zero.exe
Feb 26 2007, 12:00 PM
No animal would eat its own children.

Actually, rats do if they starve long enough.

And my point was, what a persons pure instincts to do things are just instincts, relying on those alone si seen as "evil".
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