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| The Dog Whisperer; Jan Flemmings book | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 8 2005, 12:44 PM (835 Views) | |
| Tafia | Feb 7 2006, 05:17 PM Post #16 |
Total Gas Bag!
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This continual harking on Dominance when infact it's about Leadership. Dominance is aggressive, suppressing, using fear and the threat of reprisals, bullying - Leadership is none of those things. |
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| MrE | Feb 7 2006, 05:21 PM Post #17 |
Chatterbox
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ah haaa got you Tafia, yip thats what I meant lol I do understand what your saying and totally agree with you. There is defo a difference between leadership and dominance. I think I was talking more about dominance though :-) So what is your idea of leadership, you got any examples you can share, as I can pinch em from you then and try them out :-) |
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| RJL | Feb 7 2006, 06:06 PM Post #18 |
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Chatterbox
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My background in terriers only goes back as far as 1978 when I got my first one. But - I still stand by what I said! Anyway, I agree that these days dog experts & their theories come & go and are the best thing ever one minute and totally NOT the way to to the next - which makes it all very confusing for someone who just wants to do the best by their dogs. What I said, if you read it, is that I do belive JF's methods get results but not always for the reasons she says they get results. In other words, I believe that dogs will snatch any opportunity to get the results THEY want at that particular moment in time (which is why a dog might be an angel walking to heel round a boring old training class where they've sniffed all the smells / sussed out the other dogs etc., but pull like :x: when they see a rabbit out on a walk. To stop the dog going for the bunny you can make sure the dog knows any of the following: a) Pulling results in you walking backwards - so he gets the opposite of what he wants B) Give an almighty tug / shout / hit with big stick / whatever else you can think of to deter it from pulling. c) On sight of a rabbit, whip a tasty treat out and focus dog's attention back to you. NONE of these will work unless the dog actually finds the reward more rewarding than chasing the rabbit - or the punnishments too great to continue with his bunny-chasing plans. I'm afraid I'm a simple soul & think - just keep things simple. If it works for you and your dog - go for it! I just think you can get far more from a dog if you use your head and let the dog use his too! |
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| Tafia | Feb 7 2006, 08:01 PM Post #19 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Well you've certainly got me on the experience front. My background is farming and the attitude was "terriers are not house dogs", they did their job and stayed in the yard. However, my issue was the quick jump from "pack" to "dominance". It seems knee jerk and raises the heckles on the back of my neck. The most useful tool I've found is encouraging "calm", dogs are fed when they behave in an "calm" fashion. I don't want to take wound up or overly excited dogs out for their walk, first and last 5 minutes of every walk are always calmly on lead and this behaviour is expected before we even leave the house or have collars and leads on. I expect my dogs to treat me with the gentleness and respect that I treat them. I do not want dogs running past me when I'm going up or downstairs - its dangerous. Nor do I want them competing for who's first to go through doors - again - dangerous. I don't want my dogs bolting in the opposite direction (as I see clicker/obedience trained dogs do) if a firework goes off suddenly. I want to feel confident that immediately after they've chased a rabbit they'll come bounding towards me (one dog yes - everytime/other dog - not such an instant reaction but on her terms). If either dog is walking "calmly" on lead, neither would jerk the lead to chase a rabbit - but off lead would be gone like a shot. Granted, they'll stand on tip toe, their bodies will shake with the excitment of a missed opportunity but they'd not jerk the lead or half strangle themselves to get at it. (But, if I'm in a rush, minds not on the job - they'll pull my arms out of its sockets.) That's not done by either the tasty treat or beating with a stick but by encouranging calm. Personally, I've found many similarities between what JF says in her books and the ways the "old style terriermen" treat their dogs. It may well be considered old hat, she's not the world's greatest writer and she does a pretty sharp job on self marketing which unfortunately gives folks carte blanche to deride some simple, tried and tested ways of encouraging calm in what is, otherwise, a very excitable terrier. As for the above quote, I'm sure it is not aimed as a response to my post. If it was, then you'd be presuming far more than you're currently qualified to do. |
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| RJL | Feb 8 2006, 10:34 AM Post #20 |
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Chatterbox
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No, it wasn't aimed at your post. I think we are actually in broad agreement! What I was trying to say is that there are lots of ways to get a 'result' out there and everyone has their own opinions as to what is best. Also, the smiley guy in shades was meant to be a B) - not sure how he appeared!!! I was also trying to say that some of the things JF suggests work - but not because of the reasons she gives for them working. For the record, I'm from a farming background and I have never done any formal 'obedience' in my life. A close friend was the terrierman on the local estate and he treated his dogs the way, from what you say, you treat yours and I aspire to treat mine. As you rightly say, if your dog has trust in you and you can read your dog - the whole rabbit-thing (or whatever example you choose) wouldn't be such a big deal anyway. From a rescue perspective, I've seen a couple of cases where owners have been advised to come down like a ton of bricks on dogs that were still settling into their new homes and growling / snapping out of uncertainty. You can imagine what happened next!!! I know JF's would not advocate such a thing herself, but unfortunately, there are still a lot of people who put everything about the dog they don't like or can't cope with down to 'dominance' (I know you don't - this is a general observation!) when a bit of common sense & thoughfulness would go a lot further (as I'm sure you would agree) But, although in general I cringe when common sense is turned into science - then turned into a book - then hyped as 'the next big thing' in dog training - I do think The Culture Clash is a fantastic read. So- am I forgiven? :rolleyes: |
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| RJL | Feb 8 2006, 10:36 AM Post #21 |
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Chatterbox
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The smiley guy is meant to be a letter b with a bracket - why does this keep hapenning?!!! |
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| JRT | Feb 8 2006, 11:48 AM Post #22 |
Admin
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The letter b followed by a bracket is a shorcut to that smiley. Use the letter b and a full stop or square bracket to stop it happening ;) |
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| Tafia | Feb 8 2006, 12:46 PM Post #23 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Absolutely :yes: Two things I've noticed on dog forums, that more often than not, end in virtual dog fights are the mention of Barf or Fennel. I think the forum is to be praised that the thread has existed for the length of time it has without coming across even the scent of disagreement until I got on my high horse. I'm really happy for folks to find "their own" best way of doing things, it might well be a million miles away from mine but if it works, there's no bullying involved and the dogs are happy, healthy and exercised it makes me cross to hear those methods being derided. What's contained in her first book is not brain science (certainly doesn't warrant being developed into a series of books) but does contain some perfectly sensible suggestions which, personally I feel, can help lay down some guidelines for living with your dog. It's not the only way, it might not suit everyone, the clicker evangelists hate it and thats fine. My biggest dislike of the dog world is how riddled it with politics, so many folks have this "my way or the highway" attitude. If your post had been split in two, your comments on JF and then a new recommendation topic for Culture Clash I wouldn't have commented - as it was I read it as another misinterpretation of the methods she describes as dangerous and dominant, I apologise for that. I would also like to add that as a dog trainer I'm a bumbling fool and don't pretend to be anything else - certainly not qualified to give advice to anyone - make more mistakes than otherwise - my dogs behaviour can range from downright dreadful to angelic but we have a great trust of each other and for that I'm eternally gratefully! |
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| MrE | Feb 8 2006, 01:43 PM Post #24 |
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Chatterbox
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Your defo no fool and your advice has helped me no end with Red I for one will always be grateful for that! Welsh Terriers are no easy dog to live with. They take dedication and a brilliant owner. You've clearly done yourself proud with your dogs and I would love to be the owner of them :-) |
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| RJL | Feb 8 2006, 04:01 PM Post #25 |
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Chatterbox
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:D You don't sound like a bumbling fool to me either. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my observations fairly. I'm going to award you with a little cool gut - seeing as I seem to be good at making them appear! B) |
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| RJL | Feb 8 2006, 04:06 PM Post #26 |
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Chatterbox
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Obviously - I meant 'little cool guy' As a typist I am definitely a bumbling fool!!! |
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| Tafia | Feb 8 2006, 07:36 PM Post #27 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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MrE - thats really very kind of you but really all I did was point you towards a breed specialist, I'm pretty sure most people would have done the same, it just happens that I perhaps have more knowledge of the SW breeders. And I agree, Welsh, along with all breeds, need dedication. Above that I do hope one day to be able to do them proud, but in the meantime, believe me about the bumbling fool analogy :err: |
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| Tafia | Feb 8 2006, 07:42 PM Post #28 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Ta nicely! Again, believe the analogy .... one day perhaps I'll get it all sorted but in the meantime, I'll continue as the straightwoman in the ongoing terrier comedy that is life with my dogs. :doh: Look forward to hearing more from you on the forum |
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9:06 PM Nov 23
