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| Recall Collar; shock collar | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 22 2007, 07:23 PM (415 Views) | |
| jdonald | Jan 22 2007, 07:23 PM Post #1 |
One of the regulars
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Hey Potentially controversial I know but just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on these or have used them and can comment on them?? |
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| Tafia | Jan 22 2007, 08:08 PM Post #2 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Thrilled that the Welsh Assembly is leading the way in the UK and has already banned them from use, KC has been trying to campaign for a nationwide ban for quite sometime. Whilst I have great sympathy with anyone having problems with recall (been there, done that and bought the T.Shirt), personally I would never consider putting one around my dogs neck, never mind pushing the button to activate a shock. There are other ways. My eldest is one of the most independent, bloody minded individuals imaginable, won't come to her name in the house never mind the field and has lead me a dance over the years, but eventually we found the common ground needed to get a semblence of a recall. Boo works for fun, nothing else, praise is worthless to her. Treats? She'll have them later but she likes fun. She gave me the first clue herself, she loves football so we began taking a football out with us. But Footballs become a bit cumbersome to carry on a long walk so I started to transfer her obsession onto tennis balls. We went out for evening after evening at dusk one summer, just the two of us and I'd bat the tennis ball, she'd grab it and run in the opposite direction ...... I'd then start running in the opposite direction whooping, screaming and dancing and every now and again she'd come running after me! We'd play rough and tumble, I'd ask her to drop the ball and because I'd witheld her evening meal when she did, she'd get a treat. Eventually she was running towards me as soon as she caught the ball, drop, treat. I'd always ask her before we started if she wanted to "Play?" and that's now become our key word. She's much older now and doesn't take it upon herself to go on her toes much anymore thank goodness! But believe me when I tell you, if Boo & I can be trained to have some sort of a recall without a shock collar, anyone can. Just give it time, patience and ask her what it is she's willing to work for! :lol: |
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| zandd | Jan 22 2007, 08:21 PM Post #3 |
Moderator
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Going to move this to the debates section rather than recommendations ;) Certainly not anything I'd consider using,I would imagine after a while the message being sent would become very confused to the dog. |
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| MrE | Jan 22 2007, 09:02 PM Post #4 |
Chatterbox
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I totally agree with Tafia. If anything they do have their place in the Gun Dog world even though other methods even in that environment are used. Will it work err yes in skilled hands. Trouble is you need training in the use of something like that and this is why I support a ban on all shock collars to the public. If you read up on Gun Dog training the basic premis is not to use the collar to shock but to use it to teach the dog that when the owner calls the dog feels best when its at its owners feet, the way to look at this is this hide from your dog to make him feel lost and watch his behaviour he'll go into a bit of an alert and slight panic and look for you - that and only that is the level of discomfort that should be given! The collar is by no means should create a shock of more discomfort than a firm NO - clearly this can be argued against but I believe like all tools a master could show how this would be more effective and more humane than a load of screaming, treating up, pissed off human, or a lost tracking dog and so on. Are you a gun dog master that has years of experience, if like me the answer is no then that should also be the answer to your request to buy one :-) This is what will happen if you do, you run the risk of; Setting it too high for your dog. You give a recal and shock when they dont return dog will learn your voice means pain. Your dog may be with others and see a dog it doesnt like for no reason zap shock now it wants to kill all dogs, you may shock him near kids, now wants to kill all kids. Shocking itself may make the dog develop mental problems. BUT the biggest by far with all shock collars is the dog can and if used long enough DIE! Nope they dont tell you that. But in psychology we like to shock a few animals in order to create stress and find out how it effects living things after all the WHO state stress is the no1 killer in world. So we electrocuted a load of monkeys, not with high volts but enough to cause major discomfort and up as high as a cry (think dog yelp) their hormones raced after prolonged shocks they would wear out their neurotransmitters for stress related hormones and die or suffer mental problems. Then we shocked them on commands to let them know it was coming, they died and developed mental problems quicker. Then we trained monkeys to shock other monkeys on the hour. The monkeys getting the shock suffered as in the first two but also the monkeys doing the shocking who never recieved any shock died very quick from tumours in their gut developed from being stressed out. Then we trained the monky to shock himself and these ones died and developed mental problems very fast indeed! (these experiements are now thankfully banned and we is not I but we in the field of psychology) Therefore anyone fancy shocking their pet? It could kill them and you. Dont get me wrong pain is a fantastic learning tool for a dog its god damn bloody brilliant! Example I have a wood stove, it gets hot, my dog touched it with his nose once, jumped back rubbing his nose and never touched it again - very fast learning took place. As with all species learning from pain is best left to the animal ie the animal gets something wrong the body says to the brain dont ever let that happen again, the brain goes OK OK OK :-) Considering the speed at which pain can teach and embed a behaviour, forgetting humane reasons for a moment, it simply can not be used becasue it is too easy to embedd something that you did not wish that will have ever lasting effects. Not to mention the fact animals and humans get used to pain and fight back hence it ceases to become a learning tool. Many of us keep terriers, their hunting skills were learnt through painful trial and error - rarely would a human understand the process and hence it should never be used as a learning tool other than a last resort by exceptional professionals where all else has failed and the animal will be PTS if the severe problem is not fixed. Read this http://www.clickertrainusa.com/learningtheorymain.htm it will, without having to pick up psyche books, explain pain and reward as learning outcomes. You are not wrong for thinking pain can be used to teach recall - it can. But it is a million times easier to use positive reinforcement. It is far more humane, it is far more health for the dog and for you. I beleive I can teach any dog, that does not have mental or massive social problems, recall in less than 4 weeks. Again as far as I am concerned, controversial no its not it is science and it does have its place in the science of animal behaviour (thats real scientists not micky mouse dog behaviourists that learn no more than what is on that link) but these things need to be banned becasue of all the reasons above in both this and other peoples posts. Stick with reward based it will improve your handling skills, your bond with your dog will grow, your dog will be less stressed and more happy which will mean more health. Plus if you get it wrong you wont kill any children or other animals and you wont have to PTS your dog or worst put it to rescue so someone else can have it and maybe it will kill them. In short, your best bet is dump it and join a dog class recommended by the rspca and read that link and look at these examples of how to train the baiscs (you can do these without a clicker too, just use the words good boy in a high voice) Good luck and let us know how you get on :-) http://www.clickertrainusa.com/clicker-training-videos.htm PS I hope that provided an unbiased views of negative and positive operant conditioning. |
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| jdonald | Jan 23 2007, 07:37 PM Post #5 |
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One of the regulars
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Thanks MrE - that is great info, Are you anywhere near oxford?! I don't have one for Bodi however I do have a big issue with recall!! I have attended training classes and at those she is great at recall! It is when we are out and there are smells and trails to follow then she is gone without even looking back. I have tried hiding whilst out to see her reaction nothing just runs off after a bird, tried running the other way she just keeps going the other way. Tried taking treats, toys, balls all her fav things but nothing is important enough to get her to come back! She is like this if walked alone or in a group and so far longest is 4 1/2 hours gone with me looking for her and she turned up at my parents house about 2 miles away!! Any ideas? |
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| Tafia | Jan 23 2007, 08:54 PM Post #6 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Honestly, believe me when I say I TOTALLY understand exactly what you're talking about. Boo is/was exactly the same, one of my friends says that she's certain Boo hums loudly just to avoid hearing her name being called. MrE description of playing hide and seek and watching the dog panic when it can't see you made me smile. Like you I've got a dog that doesn't know the meaning of panic just because it can't see you. She knows exactly where she is and as far as she's concerned, well, she imagines that I know exactly where I am, so there's no problem right? Wrong. And she was like this at 13 weeks old. These dogs are just way out there on the independence radar but we do have something that we play trade on, the terrier obsessive gene. You may have to encourage this trait far and beyond what's natural, what does she really like? How can you build on this? Can you make it even more excitable, desirable? Concentrate on it continually with the pair of you playing together, having fun, but really uping the anti in enjoying each other always using the desired object. Be careful to continue keeping an element of control and always use this favoured object as a mutual play thing. Then keep it for walks. It's not going to change over night, it may never be perfect but the onus is completely on you unfortunately. Bodie is not going to change her modus operandi, it's part of who she is and what she was breed for, you have to do all leg work on this, work out what it is she might work for and then you have to become more interesting, more fun, in short the companion that she want's to share her free time with. There were many, many nights that I've come home and cried with frustration but these dogs are worth it, when you find that bond eventually there's no greater reward. It's a priviledge to live with a dog that thinks outside the box. Sure if you knew that's how they were going to be when you first saw them, then you'd think long and hard before you bought them home, but we did. We just have to learn how to think outside the box ourselves. Do you remember Lucky from the More Than insurance adverts? He was rehomed numerous times for running away until he got into the hands of a dog trainer. The trainer took him home and got nowhere with him, he was too busy being "his own dog" to focus on the trainer, until he discovered Lucky liked Wellington Boots. That became his trigger, they worked on his obsession and viola! A canine star was born. I'm no expert on dog training but I've lived with a bolter. It's hard work but can be done! |
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| jdonald | Jan 23 2007, 09:44 PM Post #7 |
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One of the regulars
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I just wanted to say I wasn't saying in posting this thread that I planned to get one of these collars for Bodi just wanted to understand more about them...At only 10 months I feel training is more likly to help Just spent the past hour in the phone to training based in Thame where I live from the puppyschool link on another thread and I am enrolling on some more classes with her, she does some classes outside as well so could help with Bodi tonnes. She also said to me about the funding something of importnats to Bodi and use it in play together and then take it on walk (she has said that she will show me how to do this!) And also on diet change and treats and clicker training and everything I am soo excited found someone local who seemed to understand what my problems are and is local enough to help potentially even in the places we walk every day. She was also very impressed by the info you guys have given me so thank you all :wub: :yay: :D |
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| MrE | Jan 23 2007, 10:15 PM Post #8 |
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Chatterbox
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That's fab news :-) Hope it all works out and let us know how you get on. Plus remember info we got - but our terriers give us all a hard time now and then :-) So when you've nailed the training you want for Bodi be sure to share it as I for one am always looking to pick up tips n tricks :-) All the best and I'm sure you'll have a great time along the way :-) |
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| Tafia | Jan 24 2007, 01:24 AM Post #9 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Brilliant! Good luck, keep us posted please and above all else keep positive. If this old fool and her big girl can work their way through this problem just about anyone can given time and determination! |
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| WalkTerrier.TalkTerrier | Sep 4 2007, 12:09 PM Post #10 |
Chatterbox
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Late reply but, i've been working on Saffi's recall for the whole year & a bit i've had her- and it's still not great. At all. In fact, most of the time she ignores me still, but it's better than it was. Her biggest problem was when there were other dogs around- would she come back? You must be joking :lol: ! But, at our first Agility class last night, she was.. not behaving well... (trying to get to the dogs in the other section), and when i dropped her lead, she darted off- but- the first time i called her? She came running back! :P The one scenario i'd never expect her to come back in, she did... :rolleyes: How is Bodi's recall now? |
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| Cotswold Terrier | Dec 4 2007, 01:41 PM Post #11 |
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Squeaker
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Personally with I think they have absolutely no place in dog training not even in the gun dog world. I have seen the results of idiots who have used collars on dogs when their attempts at training a dog have failed as some of the springers I have rescued had the collar used on them ...... it may work temporarily but the moment you take the collar off the dog stops responding and you are back to square one with a traumatised dog. I am not the greatest dog trainer in the world but I accept that where my dogs go wrong is 100% down to my mistakes and my inconsistancies and my errors. But IMHO all too often people resort to the collar because they are either 1) too lazy to put the time in to train with other methods 2) too arrogant to accept they are the ones at fault and not their dog. Ban them and be rid of them is what I think. |
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