Pointing

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Pointing
Topic Started: Apr 27 2007, 09:48 AM (239 Views)
ClaireS	Apr 27 2007, 09:48 AM Post #1
Moderator Posts: 10,446 Group: Moderators Member #113 Joined: September 8, 2005	Does anyone know the origins of pointing behaviour? I know that terriers aren't traditionally point & retrieve dogs but its something that Archie does quite often. He always looks so focused and intent on whatever it is he's seen, its lovely to see! Is it a behaviour that dogs have always shown and man has developed for hunting dogs to work alongside them, or is it a skill that can be taught? Obviously I've never taught Archie to do it he just gets on with it :lol: Is it because (and going back to the 'wolf' theory here ;) ) dogs would have hunted in packs, and pointing would alert the rest of the pack to a potential quarry? I'd love to know a bit more about why they do it and what function it performs.



zandd	Apr 27 2007, 10:07 AM Post #2
Moderator Posts: 22,625 Group: Moderators Member #48 Joined: February 5, 2005	Not a clue but a great question,will look forward to responses.



Lu20	Apr 27 2007, 11:24 AM Post #3
Total Gas Bag! Posts: 4,190 Group: Full Members Member #423 Joined: March 9, 2007	ClaireS Apr 27 2007, 08:48 AM Does anyone know the origins of pointing behaviour? I know that terriers aren't traditionally point & retrieve dogs but its something that Archie does quite often. He always looks so focused and intent on whatever it is he's seen, its lovely to see! Jess will do this and she will also lift her front paw and hold it up :wub: It does looks sweet!



Tafia	Apr 27 2007, 11:30 AM Post #4
Total Gas Bag! Posts: 5,819 Group: Full Members Member #134 Joined: November 17, 2005	I've always just assumed that it's all there in the DNA imprint. Boo does a true point on a practically daily basis and out of the two is the real hunter. Davey never has and whilst if something breaks under his nose he'll hunt, certainly isn't the hunter that his aunt is.



Lu20	Apr 27 2007, 12:20 PM Post #5
Total Gas Bag! Posts: 4,190 Group: Full Members Member #423 Joined: March 9, 2007	Quote: It is believed the Pointer originated in Spain, however, it has become a very English breed over the last two centuries. Pointer's have been used by shooting men in the traditional role of inidicating the presence and position of sitting game. The breed uses his sleekness to enable it to cover wide areas of ground at considerable bed. This breed has a smooth, hard coat with a definite sheen and can be either lemon, orange, liver or black, all with white. The most distinguishing feature is the slight concavity on the top of his muzzle. Pointer's have an even temperament, capable of fitting into a family, however, this is an outdoors dog who loves nothing better than exploring moorland. A good Pointer will have excellent scenting powers and be able to move quickly over ground. This was a vital quality in the days of the slow loading flintock weapons when having found the game, the Pointer had to hold on to it. Found this - Not sure it answers the question but interesting anyway!



ClaireS	Apr 27 2007, 01:16 PM Post #6
Moderator Posts: 10,446 Group: Moderators Member #113 Joined: September 8, 2005	I think pointers as a breed are beautiful - maybe a bit too demanding for me! Browsed the net and found this, a report written in 98-99: NERVOUS SYSTEM ABNORMALITIES The literature is full of examples of dogs, pigeons, mice, rabbits, and rats which have neurological or behavioral abnormalities. In most cases, the abnormalities occurred as spontaneous mutations in laboratory stocks, which were then continuously selected for research purposes. A recent example of spontaneous mutation is muscular hypertrophy in Dorset sheep (Cockett et at., 1996). One of the most well-researched examples is nervous pointer-breed dogs. Pointers are dogs selected to freeze and point when they see game birds hidden in the bushes. Pointing behavior is similar to an orienting response that becomes frozen. The selection of pointers for the pointing trait may be selection for an abnormal orienting response. Breeders have known for years that some dogs are so nervous that they are useless as hunting dogs (Dykman et al., 1979). The pointing trait and nervousness may be linked. A neurologically normal dog will orient toward a bird or other prey then either chase it or return to its original activity. It does not stay frozen in an orienting posture. Breeders of pointers have found that there is a fine line that divides a good pointer from a bad one. Dogs with a heightened pointing response are generally too nervous to make reliable hunting dogs. Dykman et al. (1979) and Peters et al. (1967) stated that there were obvious differences in the behavior of normal versus nervous pointers. Laboratory visitors could easily differentiate which dogs were from the nervous genetic line. The genetically nervous pointers would cower in their cage and failed to approach visitors, whereas the normal pointers approached and wagged their tails. Geneticists have selectively bred both normal pointers, with the characteristic pointing behavior, and abnormal, nervous pointers. Nervous pointers are excessively timid, and have a hyperstartle response, avoidance of people, and catatonic freezing in close presence of people (Klien et al., 1988). Some nervous pointers display strikingly bizarre behavior. One dog became "frozen" in a point and fell over when accidently bumped by another dog (McBryde and Murphee, 1974). It appears that with nervous pointers, a continuum of neurological defects exists. Further research by Klien et al. (1988) revealed that many nervous pointers were also deaf. Inherited deafness in lines of pointers selected for excessive nervous behavior is an autosomol recessive trait and the nervous trait may be inherited dominantly (Steinberg et at., 1994). The welfare of normal pointers (ones without the nervous trait) is acceptable. However, nervous pointers may have very poor welfare unless they are raised under very specialized conditions. For example, training and environmental modification can help nervous pointers act more like normal dogs. McBryde and Murphee (1974) found that training nervous pointers alongside normal pointers made them less timid. The dogs from the nervous genetic line become less timid and followed a normal pointer. After a period of training, the nervous dogs no longer needed to be kept with a normal dog. McBryde and Murphee (1974) concluded that breeding an animal continuously for a certain genetic trait often resulted in the occurrence of other less desirable traits. Many examples of neurological defects in animals can be found in the genetics literature. For example, roller-tumbler pigeons are bred to roll in flight. Pigeon fanciers select for birds with an intermediate expression of this trait. Birds with an excessive expression of this trait continue rolling in flight until they crash into the ground (Entrikin and Erway 1972). Pigeons that roll in flight have acceptable welfare, but when they hit the ground welfare is severely compromised. In comparison to pointer dogs, a slightly abnormal orienting response makes a good bird dog, but an excessive amount of the trait results in a dog that is a nervous wreck. Hmmm - lots to read through! The full article can be found here Genetics and animal welfare It seems to conclude that 'pointers' are poor hunters?



Tafia	Apr 27 2007, 02:41 PM Post #7
Total Gas Bag! Posts: 5,819 Group: Full Members Member #134 Joined: November 17, 2005	Actually Claire that rings some bells, Boo is far more highly strung than Davey and does "Freeze" in situations that she doesn't understand. It's nowhere near what's being described in the article but there are certain similarities.



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