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| Has he lost his manners? | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 6 2009, 02:39 PM (325 Views) | |
| Wells07 | Jan 6 2009, 02:39 PM Post #1 |
One of the regulars
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Hi all I posted a while back about Archie barking at a border collie at my training class ever since he was frightened to death by one whilst out walking. Well, since then things have got worse. He now barks at any other dog whilst on a lead and when I left him off lead, he will go upto another dog, circling and barking the whole time. I was so embarrassed today, I feel for the other owners but I felt like no one wanted to talk to me lol! Leading up to the off lead incidents, he hasn't been around other dogs that much. My son,daugther and my husband all had the flu before Christmas so I would say I have been walking him at non-peak times in the field whilst my mum came up to babysit for well over month. I usually go straight after I've dropped the kids off at school, and there are usually loads of other dogs there but when I go later its much more quieter. We have also had him implanted with superlorin, and both my husband and I think he has become a little more nervous since he has had this done. As it stands, we aren't sure if we are going to renew this implant when it 'finishes' in March. All i want to know is could his lack of socialisation with other dogs lately have contributed to this, or could it be down to other dogs barking aggresively to him at some stage. He is such a super chap and loves to play, and that's what it looks like, he's saying 'come on run round, I want to play', but it too much and too in your face. I seem to be avoiding everyone and their dogs at the moment, but I don't know if I'm making it worse by doing that. Hope I've made sense..... |
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| Tafia | Jan 6 2009, 10:25 PM Post #2 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Well it could be possible that the superlorin is supressing his testosterone and his barking could be done to sudden lack of confidence? I don't know a huge amount about superlorin (for that read next to nothing) but castration CAN lead to lack of confidence in more sensitive dogs due to lack of testosterone which is a hugely confidence giving hormone; because I'm not overly sure how superlorin works, ie how much it supresses the dogs natural testosterone levels, it's just a guess! |
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| Wells07 | Jan 6 2009, 10:53 PM Post #3 |
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One of the regulars
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There is no testosterone production, which is why his plums are like lickle grapes at the moment!! I spoke to my trainer tonight and she recommended TTeam Touch as a possible help. I hate seeing him like this, especially as 6 months ago I could have put money on the fact that my dog would walk past any other dog that barked. He just doesn't seem very happy... |
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| Tafia | Jan 6 2009, 11:15 PM Post #4 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Testosterone is a pretty important hormone for confidence and feelings of well being, so it would stand to reason if he's not producing any then it's going to have an impact on his behaviour and how he views the world and his postion in it. Funnily enough I was going to suggest TTouch, especially seeing as how you live in Bath and so close to Tilley's Farm - I think it would be a wonderful opportunity for you both, Archie because it'll help him to relax and stressful situations and for you learning such a useful new skill. |
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| Wells07 | Jan 6 2009, 11:43 PM Post #5 |
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One of the regulars
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Sarah actually came out to look at a horse I had on part loan some years ago before my daughter was born. Her techniques impressed me then, she was a really nice person and you could tell she was very passionate about what she wanted to achieve. I do live near, but I don't think I could afford Sarah now lol!! My trainer recommended Tina Constance so might give them a bell and see what happens. I would love to attend one of their workshops, but there aren't any available at the moment. I am going to read up in the meantime. I would like to know though how the Touch can give them confidence?? That bit I don't understand really, how can the power of masage give them their confidence. Very interesting stuff! |
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| Tafia | Jan 7 2009, 01:09 AM Post #6 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Well massage is used as a method of relaxing the mind and body, used in stressful situations it can help recipient deal with the situation in a new and positive fashion and stop those situations being quite such a strain. The more positive experiences the more confidence the dog gains in its ability to deal calmly in those situations. rambling, over repetative use of the words situations, stress, positive etc! |
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| Wells07 | Jan 7 2009, 10:11 AM Post #7 |
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One of the regulars
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Thanks Tafia, I am definately going to look into. I will let you know how it goes! |
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| Tafia | Jan 7 2009, 11:32 AM Post #8 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Oh please do, I'm fascinated by TTouch. |
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| piwoodhouse | Jan 8 2009, 01:23 AM Post #9 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Don't know if this will help or confuse! I had a few behavioural problems with Widget a few months ago; we'd just introduced a young adult female Cairn and I noticed while we were out on walks that he was becoming increasingly protective of her and sometimes of me. The tiniest bleat from her towards another dog would see PC Widget steaming in to defend (quite unnecessarily). In the end, we castrated him and I know it's a touchy subject, but in my own experience, it seemed to have a positive effect - and this was noticed within weeks, not only by me. That said, Paddy the aggressive red setter was castrated shortly after Widget and has lost none of his enthusiasm for ambushing every dog he can and pinning it to the ground by the throat. At the same time, I upped Widget's training as I could see he didn't like bouncy dogs running towards him - he would go on the attack as if attempting to diffuse an onslaught from them. So when I saw other dogs approaching, I'd call Widget to me, ask him to sit and have him focus on a food treat in my hand. I'd give him the treat just as the other dog reached us in the hope he'd associate other dogs proximity as something rewarding. Quite often, because the other dog's approach was quiet and non threatening, he would just greet it and move on. Unless it was a staffie; for a reason I simply can't explain, Widget has never been particularly fond of this breed or even staffie crosses and I decided to make us of a Multivet Spray collar - just temporarily - because I felt his growling at a staffie could quite justifiably lead the staffie to retailiate and Widge being Widge I know he would fight to the end as terriers tend to do. This worked amazingly and never did I think I'd be able to tell Mike that Widget had trotted happily alongside Ozzie the Border Collie/Staffie for the whole walk last weekend. If you don't know of it, it's a collar with a remote control that will activate a spray of water or citronella whenever there is some undesirable behaviour you want to stop. It doesn't hurt or harm the dog, but it will literally stop it in it's tracks and gives you a window to get back some control - ideal for those bolshy little terriers who like to think they're the ones in charge! Good luck with TTouch - never tried it but it has masses of fans. Edited by piwoodhouse, Jan 8 2009, 01:24 AM.
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| Tafia | Jan 8 2009, 05:37 PM Post #10 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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I hope you don't mind Pam but from the information given (and reading between the lines) there's a difference between Widget and Archie's situations. Archie's already been chemically castrated and coincidently or not, has lost confidence in dealing with social situations withother dogs. Castration can be brilliant in cases of naturally bumptious, confident testosterone driven males but disastrous for the more nervous or less confident dog - they really need their full share of hormone purely for mental equilibrium. I'd let the superlorin wear off, in the meantime try as many confidence building exercises as I could, TTouch and see if there's an improvement in his situation. Do you mind me asking Wells07 the reason behind the Superlorin? Was he exhibiting what I call Saturday night behaviour? |
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| RJL | Jan 8 2009, 06:01 PM Post #11 |
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Chatterbox
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I was talking to a Lancashire based behaviourist (not about Dill - nobody knows what makes him tick!) and he mentioned that castration reduces testosterone, but does not affect ardrenaline levels at all, so yes I can see that if ardrenaline goes up without the testosterone-induced confidence it could lead to a fearful response. Does that make sense?! Interestingly, when Dill came back to me (minus the balls) he had become fear-aggressive towards other dogs and would lunge and bark at anything that was pulling on its lead. At the time I put it down to nerves following the attack by the Irish Terriers, but perhaps it was exacerbated by a newly-acquired lack of confidence? We tackled it with a mixture of letting him meet unflappable, well-socialised dogs; distracting hinm when possible if another dog was approaching (easier said than done) and a very firm 'Watch me!' followed up by an instant and very tasty reward when he did face me. We got there eventually, although if another dog is really pulling towards him, he does still get wary. |
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| piwoodhouse | Jan 8 2009, 06:53 PM Post #12 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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You're right Tafia, I see that now. Must say this topic is fascinating as it's dispelling all kinds of urban myths for me -the Rescues I'm involved with are so pro-castration that you almost get brainwashed into thinking testosterone is the instrument of the devil instead of just a natural hormone. And what you say about Widget is spot on. How DID you get to be so knowledgeable? Edited by piwoodhouse, Jan 8 2009, 06:55 PM.
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| Wells07 | Jan 9 2009, 12:49 AM Post #13 |
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One of the regulars
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Hi everyone and thank you again for your replies. When Archie was entire, he was a little timid, not greatly but a little timid. He could walk past other dogs barking and not bat an eyelid. This is why I am sure this behaviour is fear aggression. With regards to Suprelorin, Archie was 12 months old when we had him implanted. He was marking everywhere in the house and I was firm in my view that I did not want to physically castrate him. I had heard of Suprelorin and my vet had mentioned it to me as an alternative. I researched it and knew that the testosterone was the confidence giving hormone and yes it would deplete it, but I would take the risk as it was a temporary castration anyway, he seemed so balanced. The marking stopped for a while but his behaviour over the last few months has become different (he has had it in now for 4 months). He seems more timid, barks at other dogs whilst on the lead. When he's off the lead he barks at other dogs and he has been set upon a few times poor love. Each time he didn't retaliate at all, just ran away from the situation or back to me which makes me believe his outbursts are fear related. I do have the luxury of letting him revert back to his entire status, but I want to try and help in as much as I can in the meantime. Ttouch seems to be brilliant for that. Went out today and managed to distract him from barking at other dogs whilst on the lead (tasty sausage!) but I could tell by his body language that half his mind was on me and the other half on the dog on the other side of the road, very twitchy! The Turid Rugaas book is very informative, saying that in the wild dogs meet each other in a curve and not 'head on' as such, making it a more calmer affair. The lady who runs my dog training class phoned me a few days ago to discuss and she agrees with me that he has definately become more timid, her observations. She was the one who mentioned TTouch to me as she has been to a workshop and found it really beneficial. She also told me about the wrap and how that can act as a comfort blanket to Archie. She is lending me a book so I can find out more. I am also reading Turid Rugaas's book calming signals which has been good too. For Archie, and this doesn't apply to every dog, I am positive that the chemical castration hasn't been good for him really. Every dog is different and my trainer's dog who was castrated did not change in the slightest. I suppose I just perhaps underestimated how nervous he was before he had it done. Thanks again for all your replies, like you Piwoodhouse, I find things like this fascinating. How the power of touch can help our four legged friends... If only they could talk! |
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| Borders | Jan 9 2009, 07:22 AM Post #14 |
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Squeaker
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Hi all just to add a bit about castration, one of my boys is castrated, reason being he has an allergy so would never be used for stud, my own vet has always said in Border Terriers castration does not settle dogs down like it does in many other Breeds, i believe he is right because as soon as mine was castrated aged 20 months he turned into what Helen is saying about Archie, i now wish i had left well alone, what is working for him now is getting in there first with an order to leave it before he sets of on one, so basically i've had to be a stronger pack leader, if you don't get in first fast he will not hear you, it's working slowly but surely, thing is to once he's tryed to lay down the law to a new dog on the block he is the bestest friend ever to them......little tyke, keep at it Helen you'll get there. |
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| Tafia | Jan 9 2009, 02:10 PM Post #15 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Well I think Archie's a very lucky dog indeed having such a caring owner. Good luck and continue to let us know how he's getting on, I expect there are many of us interested in the TTouch results. |
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