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| Playfighting | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 29 2009, 09:42 AM (158 Views) | |
| Linda & Fred | Jan 29 2009, 09:42 AM Post #1 |
Chatterbox
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Just wondered about something - my Fred is NOT allowed to playfight with other dogs because of the problems I've had with him snapping at other dogs and trying to beat up Beauty, I was told by my behaviourist not to let him. I've got a friend's dog staying with me (not for the first time) and they've always been great playfighters. So now I keep breaking it up, but what exactly IS playfighting? I've contacted my behaviourist but on the off-chance he takes a while to get back to me just wondered if anyone else had any clue what sort of playing they could do? I don't think they'd play tug as Fred can be quite jealous of his toys and might start up his snotty 'I'm the boss' routine again, and I think he'll scare the other dog into dropping the toy with all the noise he makes when he's tugging with another dog. Perhaps I'm being too sensitive over what playfighting is, snapping jaws, is that okay? But no biting or wrestling? Hmmm... On the other hand, it is quite funny when he tries to hump this much bigger dog... Fred always wants to hump visitors for the first day or so. |
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| zandd | Jan 29 2009, 10:39 AM Post #2 |
Moderator
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Terriers playfighting can be quite scary to someone who hasn't seen it before,all that growling and showing teeth :o When Daisy first came I got really worried thinking Duncan was hurting her dragging her across the floor by her leg - until I saw her nudging him for more when I stopped them :lol: So I'd judge the behaviour of the two of them,it does sometimes step over the line and playing becomes a bit too serious and tempers flare.Definitely no toys if he's possessive,but most what you describe sounds fine to me - snapping jaws is part of play,biting definitely not. |
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| piwoodhouse | Jan 29 2009, 02:42 PM Post #3 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Zandd's quite right, to the uninitiated play fighting can seem brutal to say the least. All that snarling, gnashing of teeth, darting retreats and immediate head-on clashes and my goodness those vocals!! Below are photos of Widget having an absolute ball with mad, crazy Pickle (JRTxSpaniel) - and even though it looks scary thanks to all those teeth, in the 2nd photo especially, it's clear Widge is almost grinning and definitiely an eager playmate. Posted Image Posted Image Now, compare the above with this series of photos below. Max and Molly (black & white spaniel x terriers) were defensive of each other and would occasionally lash out at dogs they perceived as a threat, even when there was no real reason to. In the first shot, Widget is out of the frame. In the second, Max sees him and whips round and in the thiird, Max lunges at Widget to bite him. Even though the photo isn't particularly good, you can tell that Widge is quite taken aback by the recessive body language: he clearly feels uncomfortable and wants to get away. Max's tail is down and judging the mouth end, he clearly wants Widge out of the way. Hopefully you can see the difference, but if not you'll soon learn to distinguish between behaviours. Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image I was also given a bit of useful advice - forget the noise and ignore what their mouths are doing. Watch their tails instead. If they are wagging or perkily upright, they're having the time of their lives. If one carries it's tail classically curled between it's legs, looks anxiously behind and is obviously attempting to get free (ie no retaliatory moves!), then I'd step in :lol: Edited by piwoodhouse, Jan 29 2009, 03:25 PM.
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| Linda & Fred | Jan 29 2009, 04:32 PM Post #4 |
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Thanks for the descriptions and photos! Fred isn't allowed to playfight AT ALL no matter how innocent it is. It's not a case of me thinking a playfight is serious. Fred is very good at playfighting but is not allowed to enjoy it. :( Just spotted him playing with Shamen again now - he's very definitely biting - not closing his jaws, but putting them round Shamen's legs and tail. I'm not sure he's innocent at all - he's playfighting, but he looks as if he's working on his techniques, which is what his behaviourist said caused the problems with Beauty to get out of hand. I think he looks as if he's waiting for a chance to make SURE it gets out of hand... Here's Shamen laughing at Fred, who has just thrown a cushion off the sofa in annoyance that I stopped the game. Posted Image If you look at that photo of Pickle, scroll so you can't see Widget. I think we should post that up and ask for captions. ;) |
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| piwoodhouse | Jan 29 2009, 04:39 PM Post #5 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Wonder if you'd be able to video this behaviour? It's so hard to understand it from a still photograph and of course your TT friends are cheaper than a behaviourist :lol: |
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| flagship | Jan 29 2009, 06:39 PM Post #6 |
Squeaker
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Piwoodhouse, that is a terrific photograph - the first one - very amusing and illustrates how playfighting is fun for the dogs. You should enter it for a competition. In my limited experience, I have found that play fighting is a method of sorting out rank as much as just letting off steam. You can instinctively know when things arn't too friendly and it's usually between two complete same sex animals. If the dogs emit a low pitched growl, then there's a likelyhood of a bit of testosterone being vented, otherwise it's just play. If your dog is on a lead, you can usually feel vibrations through the lead before you hear a growl. Terriers playing rough is fun to see and normally comes to nothing. |
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| cruisingkerry | Jan 29 2009, 08:31 PM Post #7 |
Squeaker
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Hiya, I'm not an expert by any means but when Gordon comes over he and George playfight. It does look quite aggressive with leg biting, but then George will run crazy around the room jumping on the furniture and bed etc teasing Gordon because he knows Gordon can;t jump up like he can. As was said in a previous post looking at the tails gives it all away, and I judge it by how quick they are to stop when I tell them. if they're proper fighting then george for sure would take no ntice of me at all! |
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| Laura | Jan 29 2009, 09:49 PM Post #8 |
One of the regulars
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Has Fred's behaviour gone backwards at all since you have been letting him play fight? (Mainly towards Beauty) I'd say let him have short play sessions, step in before it gets too heated, and keep a close eye on him. If his behavior goes downhill in any way stop the play. If it doesn't change let him have his fun! Maybe he'll realsise he can behave differently with this dog. |
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| Linda & Fred | Jan 29 2009, 10:09 PM Post #9 |
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He only started it a short while before I posted, but he has been generally grumpier today - he came to work with me today so I didn't have to leave him with Shamen, just in case. He's kept away from Beauty. I don't want to let him play long enough to video it, sorry, simply because he very often didn't bother with Beauty when he had another dog here to direct it at. The behaviourist said he'd probably always want to go for Beauty as he was trying to drive her out of the house, it would just be 'fear' of the consequences (ie me) stop him, so I don't want to risk him playing with Shamen and it being all okay, then Shamen goes home and I am back at the beginning with poor old Beauty. She's been so much brighter since Rob came round, I don't want her going back to being afraid all the time. |
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| zandd | Jan 30 2009, 06:29 PM Post #10 |
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Tricky situation,can see now why you're concerned about him playfighting though,would probably set Beauty back if he were to start it on her. |
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| piwoodhouse | Jan 31 2009, 02:11 AM Post #11 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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I agree, but I think at the same time he really needs some kind of outlet for this physical letting off steam. It sounds as if he sets out to play but it gets out of hand, he crosses boundaries and then finds it impossible to back down. He sounds a very bright little dog too so possibly would enjoy some activity where he can derive both physical and mental stimulation from it. Obviously there's stuff like agility but have you thought of Canix (short for canine cross country): http://www.cani-cross.co.uk/ As well as running as a singleton there is dual racing where two dogs are harnessed together and while they can have a good companiable romp around, it's also activity with a purpose. |
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| Linda & Fred | Jan 31 2009, 09:41 AM Post #12 |
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They seem to have settled down with some toys, which is nice! No arguing! And you can just see Beauty in the top right corner snoozing among her many toys. Posted Image Fred was licking that bear! |
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| Linda & Fred | Jan 31 2009, 09:55 AM Post #13 |
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Fred can't do running - he's got hip dysplasia. :( And I definitely don't do running! I've been told that walking about all day is fine, which is why he does come into work with me if the weather isn't too hot or too cold, but I make sure he has at least as much time crated in the van as he does walking, so we're building his stamina back up slowly. It's ideal for him to have lots of lead walks, although sometimes I do let him go off lead. This morning we are going to an agillity class - the trainer is a friend of mine and she's going to treat Fred like a young dog, so no jumps and being careful to see how that goes. We tried agility before, but he got really over excited and went for other dogs - here's a quote from his diary back in 2007
Or if he didn't do that, he'd get the zoomies. But I think slow and gentle agility will be helpful to encourage him to think, and he did enjoy it when we were learning each obstacle, he just couldn't cope with the general environment. My friend Joe is a much better trainer than the people who were teaching (not qualified in agility at all most of the people who were training us, just obedience instructors!). We've also got k9 multisports and RallyO lined up over the next few months and I do train with him at home when I'm not too tired. We're doing relaxation protocal as well as working through Control Unleashed. I think now his dysplasia is being treated he won't be quite so bonkers, but some of the exercises in there I think are great for any dog to learn. I want him to learn to settle down no matter what the environment, currently he paces and paces in new places and I'd quite like to be able to have a quiet drink in a country pub after a nice country walk sometimes without worrying what he's up to. Edited by Linda & Fred, Jan 31 2009, 09:56 AM.
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| piwoodhouse | Jan 31 2009, 10:57 AM Post #14 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Well it's good that you're willing to try anything that Fred is able to do - I do hope you get results soon. You deserve it after all your efforts! |
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| Linda & Fred | Jan 31 2009, 09:21 PM Post #15 |
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Saw a fabulous result today at the agility class. I was watching Fred closely as an excitable staffy was taking four jumps across the front of us, and he sat, alert, but chilled. I clicked and treated him, and while I was fiddling about the staffy had eluded his owner and ran back even closer in front of us, and Fred - well I won't say he didn't move a muscle, he was certainly twitching but he stayed put and was obviously controlling himself. I hadn't even noticed the staffy as I was looking at what I was doing with the threats, so wasn't actively doing anything with Fred to make sure he behaved. :wub: He did really well, although admittedly he is more grumpy this evenng if we need to ask him to move off the sofa, but as he's snarling and growling I'm ttouching him and he's calming down, reluctantly! |
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