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| Please help; Any advice? | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 24 2009, 05:40 PM (327 Views) | |
| hannahnicholls | Feb 24 2009, 05:40 PM Post #1 |
Chatterbox
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please can someone give me some advice? I feel at my wits end with my two at the moment. Molly is so demanding and clingy I could scream and she is still messing in the house every single day. We are decorating at the moment but I really feel like giving up as she scratches every door/door frame in the house. Molly pulls so much on the lead she pulls my back out and to top it all off I asked Jason to walk them ONCE last week and he didn't. I feel like I can not be bothered any more and thoughts keep sneaking in my head like they would be better of re-homed together but somewhere they get more exercise. They jump up at the back door to go out, you let them out and then they come straight back in, they jump up at the back door to go out, you let them out and…….. on and on and on. Snow is so aggressive with other dogs and yesterday it got stupid. We were in the park playing ball and he went up to another dog (about the 2nd time this year that he has been off his lead) and after the initial wagging tail, sniffy abouts he just went into one with the dog for no apparent reason. The Alsatian got him up-side-down and trod on him biting him and then Molly dove in to rescue him and she ended up in the same position. I was running towards them and the owner of the dog was trying to grab at his dog and I tried to pull it off my two, the guy then went for me and accused me of hitting his dog and ended up verbally abusing me and punching me in the arm and ribs. Not a nice experience at all and now I feel hateful towards Snow thinking if only he wasn't so aggressive and actually CAME BACK when I called him none of this would have happened. I have paid for one - to - one training with him, behaviourists to come out and see us and we weren't even allowed to stay at the training class because he was so aggressive. Any advice? Edited by hannahnicholls, Feb 24 2009, 05:55 PM.
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| Lu20 | Feb 24 2009, 05:44 PM Post #2 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Oh Hannah :stroke: Take a big breath - cup of tea, sit back and just stop getting anxious. This is a situation that can be sorted with some good advice and tips, I am just sorry that I can't offer anything but others here will - wait and see. :flower: |
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| zandd | Feb 24 2009, 06:10 PM Post #3 |
Moderator
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Oh hannah I really feel for you right now.First thing I think is you need to relax,Snow is picking up on your tension - as is Mollly.Jason needs to help you out with these two - does he regard the dogs as being for both of you or simply your responsibility? Snow's agression - he must not be let off lead until this is sorted,no compromise there - he is putting himself in danger by attacking other dogs - and of course the other dog as well.Is it at all possible to take them out seperately,I know working full time makes that difficult but I really feel he could benefit from one-to-one training.The agression has to be sorted before the recall,it's the most important subject that needs dealing with.I think you need professional help here as well.Which area are you in,maybe someone knows a good trainer? The other areas I'll give you my ideas on later. It really sounds to me as if the dogs are just too much for you alone at present,Jason must be involved with their training,exercise etc if he wants you to feel under less pressure :hug: Do they use a crate at all,Molly's clinginess and the in and out and in again business must be tiring,I think they'd benefit from having a crate each to relax in. |
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| piwoodhouse | Feb 24 2009, 06:39 PM Post #4 |
Total Gas Bag!
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I really sympathise, first of all. Secondly, I don't know what finances are like but I wonder if there would be any way of say paying a dog walker or if not a trusted friend/relative to take the dogs out (on lead obviously). As things are, I'm sure Molly and Snow must be picking up on your very understandable frustration and when things have got to that stage I think you almost need to do something entirely unpredictable to jolt them out of things. If someone else steps in to provide them with a change of scene (whether they want one or not!) they'll get exercise and you'll get some much needed relief and a chance to get on with other things. Being taken on a different route, by someone less familiar ( and who they can't influence) will have the added advantage of bombarding their senses too, so they may well sleep when they get back! I get the sense they could be looking for attention and probably because you are naturally kind and generous you may be feeding this manipulation simply by getting up to let them out over and over even though they don't really want to go. I was told (albeit in relation to Pixel's mood swings when having a phantom pregnancy) to treat my dog is a very matter-of-fact, almost brusque fashion because treating her as though she was fragile was actually quite harmful. Cutting down on picking her up and cuddling her, even eye contact and soothing words seemed to bring her round quite quickly. If you think there is some natural sensitivity there, have you thought of Bach's flower remedies or rescue remedy? Not a quick fix obviously, but started now it could have a positive effect within the next few months. As for aggression towards other dogs, I went through that myself with both of mine defending the other at times. The Multivet Citronella spray collar worked amazingly well for me - in about one week Widget was almost a different dog! It can be used to all manner of bad habits such as inappropriate toileting though you'd need to catch her doing it for it to have any value. One thing apart from the collar that made a difference was keeping Widget on lead in a sit as another dog approached and giving him treats for sitting quietly. Keeping his attention by virtue of the treats, I would only let hiom off the lead when the visiting dog was physically part of our little group; Widget generally went for other dogs as he saw them approaching, particularly if they were running towards him. Provided we could control the approach, his temper stayed pretty much on an even keel. Lots of treats though when new dogs are milling about so that Snow gets to learn their presence is a positive thing. But I'd recommend keeping Molly on lead while all this is going on. I'm sure the others will have some good advice though. |
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| Jules 114 | Feb 24 2009, 07:40 PM Post #5 |
Squeaker
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So sorry to here you are having so many problems, try not to let things get on top of you. Others have already suggested things that I would advised, but you may want to look into two products that may help one is DAP and the other is Zyklene which can be bought over the counter at your vets, they both should help to calm down dogs, may be useful for snows aggression, might be worth a try along with training. |
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| Laura | Feb 24 2009, 07:55 PM Post #6 |
One of the regulars
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some very good advice already. :flower: You sound like a lovely lady who loves her dogs to pieces! They are lucky to have an owner who can be bothered to look for a solution when things get hard. What you have written about Snow sounds exactly like what I would have written about my Sally 12 months ago! (To be honest, Molly sounds similar too) and I have gone through the stage of being almost angry at her for 'ruining our walks' etc. Then I realized me being upset at her was making her worse, and also that the reason she was being aggressive was not to annoy me! Here's what I did: I tried walking and letting her off lead when there were no other dogs around so she could get her exercise, and walking her on a lead in the park so she could be around other dogs but under control (at her worst she would run to a dog 100 yards away and do exactly what Snow did with the Alsatian) making sure i was praising any behavior which wasn't aggressive and ignoring any I didn't want. I walked around at a distance she was happy with, if she reacted, I had taken her too close too quickly. It was quite a slow process but now she can walk past other dogs on a path, on lead, and not show aggression. In the meantime I got her recall 100% perfect. She comes as soon as I call or whistle without questioning or hesitating. I can call this dog off a rabbit chase every time (we're on about a patterdale x BT/whippet!) It took lots of work, consistency and yummy treats but it is well worth having. I'm going to disagree with Zandd a little bit here, just because my experience is different. I have not got rid of Sally's aggression. I'm pretty sure if I let her go up to another dog and didn't say anything she would snap. She is not a sociable dog (not even with our Meg, really) and she is not a dog who will happily play with others at the moment, maybe ever. But she is a dog with a flawless recall. I can have her off lead in a busy dog park because if she does get too close to another dog, or a dog approaches her, I can call her knowing she will leave it straight away and come to me (even if she does give it a 'smile' as she turns around!) I gave up trying to introduce her to dogs and 'make friends' because she is not happy with it. She wasn't as a puppy, she isn't now. What i do agree with is that you should not let him off lead near other dogs if he is potentially aggressive and doesn't always come back when called. Accident waiting to happen. It took about 18months to get from Sally ignoring me and running off to have a go at other dogs, to walking through the park muttering the odd 'come on' if she get's too close. I can even stop and have a conversation with another dog owner, and make Sally 'stay' by my side. Sally has been to agility classes and competed a bit with no incidents, and she loves it, despite all the other dogs around. At one point i never thought we would even get close to this and I nearly gave up and stopped walking her. Please keep at it! I must have spent hours on the internet looking for different techniques, have read loads of books ('click to calm' Karen Pryor really played a big part in Sally's training) and spoke to 4 behaviorists in my search for a 'cure' to Sal's aggression! You have to find out what suits your dogs and your lifestyle so you can all be happy. Good luck! Make sure you don't get so upset about certain aspects of their behavior that you ignore what you love about them. |
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| Tafia | Feb 24 2009, 08:57 PM Post #7 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Just wanted to say that there have been times when I've come home after a walk at my wits end with Boo. You've got my sympathies. The only thing which I would add is the more exercised the dog, the easier it is to work with them - especially around other dogs. At 8 and 5 years of age, they still have at least 5-10 minutes training every day - it's a daft thing to say, but the more you can get them to listen to you, the more they hear you. Edited by Tafia, Feb 24 2009, 08:58 PM.
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| piwoodhouse | Feb 24 2009, 10:11 PM Post #8 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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What a LOVELY thing to say. I'll try and remember that when the going gets tough, as it does for all of us from time to time. |
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| Linda & Fred | Feb 25 2009, 08:57 AM Post #9 |
Chatterbox
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Sorry you are getting so upset, I know what it's like feeling like you want dogs to go back to where they came from, I was in the same position with Fred more than once when I first started to get him trained. Have you tried searching for an aggressive or anti-social dog trainer or class? There is one near me and he has done wonders with a lot of dogs. If you can't find a class you need someone experienced in aggression. Since I have had so much trouble with websites/aggression with Fred I steer away from advising, so I don't even talk about what I do with Fred, but I will say I had two behaviourists out to Fred (and interviewed and dismissed another 2 or 3 in between) before we managed to get to the bottom of his problems. He's not 'cured' and never will be, but he's under more control now. With recall you have to start small, and recall around the house and reward as many times as you can. Then add in the garden, then outside on lead. Recall is something I never stop teaching and practising. I'm just teaching it to an 8 year old Beagle who has a nasty poo eating habit. Before I can call him away from poo, I've got to be able to call him away from boring things. His owners don't understand how me sitting around calling and releasing, calling and releasing, calling and releasing is working on his poo eating, but they trust me. Once he's almost breaking his neck to get back to me, then we'll move on to something a bit more challenging. |
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| hannahnicholls | Feb 25 2009, 10:10 AM Post #10 |
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:flower: Thank you all so much for your advice, I contacted Epsom rescue where I got Snow from and Nikki has put me in touch with a lady that will help with his problems initially, she also holds a training class on Monday nights and Jason has (reluctantly) agreed to go to with Molls. He DID take them out this morning and although I had to sort of trick him :rolleyes: I will tackle this with him at another time but not at the moment. I can tell you guys though this morning watching him walk/being pulled down the road from behind the curtain was a great moment and I was forced to do a little victory dance! All in all it is helpful just to get all your grips down knowing that you are not going to get any back lash from people. Dogs are frustrating (particularly terriers) but they are our dogs our responsibility and so I will try everything to make them happier in there little lives. I will keep you posted of our progress. |
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| zandd | Feb 25 2009, 10:59 AM Post #11 |
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I know what Eco Worrier went through and can't understand it at all.The only people who can say what someone is doing with their dogs is helpful or not is someone who is actually working with them.You have 2 differing problems here and can see why it seems to be overwhelming at the moment :hug: Maybe your two have become over-reliant on your presence,do you work full time? I know I spent way too much time "doing things" with the Ds when I came home from work leading to them becoming over excited and dependant.They don't have to have someone playing with them all day long :rolleyes: You'll get there with help - and with Jason as well,it's great that he's going to take Molls to classes,that gives both of you one-to-one time with the other dog. :ph43r: I'm also not averse to considering putting the dogs in kennels for a couple of days if things really do seem to be insurmountable,some free time for you both is vital as well you know. |
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| hannahnicholls | Feb 25 2009, 11:07 AM Post #12 |
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Chatterbox
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Do you know I am seriosuly thinking aobut it, we have to paint the front room by the end of March and the thought of doing that with those to :help: It would be good to have a break from them. I don't know anyone who could walk them for me, we did have a girl who walked Snow but she was unwilling to walk Moll as well. Maybe after the training. |
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| zandd | Feb 25 2009, 11:12 AM Post #13 |
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Moderator
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Get searching for a good kennel then,you need to be assured that they understand completely Snow's issues and he must be exercised alone with Molls of course.I'd go for a decent kennel rather than someone looking after them to be honest,tell us where you live and we'll see if there are any recommendations around. |
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| hannahnicholls | Feb 25 2009, 12:10 PM Post #14 |
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Chatterbox
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I would proably go back to the kennels where he was in rescue, they have stayed there before when we went on holiday. But thank you :flower: |
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| hannahb | Feb 25 2009, 12:46 PM Post #15 |
Chatterbox
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Oh Hannah you do have my sympathy, we are working really hard to try and address Hari's dog aggression - I've felt simply dispairing at times but I do think things are gradually improving. Tom and I take our two to training - we swop dogs every week so that neither dog gets too reliant on either one of us - something which could easily happen. Do keep letting us know how its going (the good and the bad) :stroke: |
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