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| Dominant or protective?; How do you know the difference? | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 9 2009, 04:41 PM (91 Views) | |
| Laura | Apr 9 2009, 04:41 PM Post #1 |
One of the regulars
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For whatever reason, Sally doesn't like other dogs. Nervous and submissive as a puppy, changed into showing teeth and giving warning barks as she got older. Her behaviour and character are perfect in every other way so we just accept that she doesn't like other dogs and she isn't asked to say hello to them! Before I accepted this, I spent a year and a half speaking to behaviourists, paying to see two proffessionals (both complete disasters), searching the internet, buying books, etc etc. trying to find some kind of 'cure' for Sal's aggression (I even started a behaviourists course myself!!) whilst trying to gently introduce her to nice dogs and meet up with dogs she did accept as much as possible. Nearly all the information I found told me that dog to dog agression was because of dominance. Sally was trying to be 'leader' of her pack, and the 'solutions' I was found were to change the way we do everything to let her know who was boss (not allowed to sleep on the bed, ignore requests for affection, make her sit before food...you know the drill) I didn't really try any of that seriously as it didn't fit in with our lifestyle and I thought it would ruin, or at least change, the amazing bond Sally and I have. I have never had any issues with any of her other behaviour so to change the whole lifestyle seemed drastic. Anyway, long story short, I got so stressed about her 'problem' and the fact that I couldn't fix it I just decided to stop it and learn to live with her as she was (best decision ever!) and at some point along the line I thought what if it's just her protecting me against something she thinks is scary? Does it still relate to dominance? She is so obedient and I wouldn't call any of her behaviour 'dominant' (demanding, yes, but she's a terrier!) even when she has a go at other dogs her head is down and tail between her legs, not really a dominant pose! I'm not an expert, but I would have thought a pack animal would make some effort to protect it's leader? Why is it that for all my research into aggression I never found anything about dogs being protective unless it went along with dominance? Is it possible Sally is just trying to keep the scary dogs away from herself and her 'mum'? Or have I just completely missed the point of everything that has ever been said on the subject? What do you reckon? Sorry, it went on longer than I thought! but I am very curious to find out what you all think, thanks! Laura, Sally & Meg |
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| Tafia | Apr 9 2009, 05:26 PM Post #2 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Well I'm no expert but personally think that most aggression is either due to simply not knowing how to behave with other dogs or fear. Saying that she was nervous and submissive as a pup could lead one to thinking Sally's was the latter. Reading between the lines from what you've written ie: she's protecting you, it sounds as though Sally is more likely to react when in close proximity to you rather than you being at some distance? If that were so, could it be she's reading anxiety from you (oh dear, how is Sally going to behave, what is it I should be doing, in this situation, to pre-empt Sally throwing a strop etc, etc) and that exacerbates her reaction? Edited by Tafia, Apr 9 2009, 07:08 PM.
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| cruisingkerry | Apr 9 2009, 06:47 PM Post #3 |
Squeaker
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very interesting read, a bit like Harry, will keep watching to see what folk say x |
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| piwoodhouse | Apr 9 2009, 11:23 PM Post #4 |
Total Gas Bag!
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I had a well documented struggle with Widget taking on the vast majority of dogs we met on our walks - this was due to him beocming protective of Pixel when she first arrived. The drill was she would bleat at a passing dog and PC Widget would steam in and metaphorically pin it to the floor by the throat. In Widget's case the reasons for his behaviour were quite clear and after only 2 days of using one of those Masterplus collars to deliver a quick jet of water when he got out of hand (preceded by a verbal command which is all I now need), I had a different dog. I would stress though that Widget's a confident, borderline-bolshy little dog and I was quietly confident that only his pride was going to get hurt. Pixel is a lot more sensitive and had she had this problem I would have dealt with it differently. I agree with Tafia in that it sounds as if Sally is frightened, probably some deep rooted fear from an incident when young. Being a terrier she has to 'get in there' first rather than wait and risk being hurt herself. Can I ask how she reacts when say a friend brings a dog into your house or this just an "outside" phenomenon? |
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| Linda & Fred | Apr 11 2009, 07:36 AM Post #5 |
Chatterbox
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I think it sounds more like fear/anxiety. When my brother's staffy is in an 'up for it' mood her tail is sticking right up, as is Fred's (although his is naturally there anyway) but when a tail is right down then that's when the dog is more anxious. How anxious can often be assessed by how tucked in the tail is! Fred has also had some problems which a lot of people said were to do with him sleeping on my bed etc, but the behaviourist who finally sorted him out said he had trained me! I can see another dog I walk doing something similar now I know what to watch out for. He said that sleeping on the bed wasn't causing the problem, and it wasn't really going to help a huge amount to make him sleep somewhere else, although it would make things go quicker. He did say I had to ignore requests for attention (ALL attention, not just affection, so any attention at all) but that was because Fred was using that specific method to 'train' me. That was three very lonely weeks when I felt like I never touched Fred at all. :( Because of course he felt very happy ignoring MY requests for attention/affection! It does give you away a bit when you say you felt stressed - your dog will pick up on this. I don't think dogs 'protect' their owners unless they have been bred to be protectors (eg GSDs) but there is always the exception to the rule! Protecting 'resources' is something slightly different. |
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| Laura | Apr 14 2009, 04:00 PM Post #6 |
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One of the regulars
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Thanks for your replies. Yes. I'm pretty sure Sally's dislike of other dogs comes from fear (again, plenty of the information I found said a dog will always favour 'flight' and if it shows aggression it is dominance not fear) I had her at a very young age of 5 weeks as her mum got bored of the pups just after 3 weeks and became aggressive so the pups were separated and sold as soon as possible. Obviously this is why she was so nervous of other dogs from the beginning. She is a bit worse when she's with me which is why I thought it was protectiveness, but she still gives other dogs a 'warning' if she is at a distance, this happens less frequently because I call her away if I see a dog coming up to her and get her to sit or give a paw of something (I do this randomly throughout walks with both dogs anyway to keep them on their toes and so it's not just linked with the sight of another dog) She will protect Meg, but only if the other dog (or Meg) growls or something, she isn't on guard all the time. Meg is really friendly and she just gets on with saying hello to every other dog whilst Sally stays out of the way. piwoodhouse. no it's not just an outside problem, she hates dogs everywhere! The dogs that come round, or whose houses we go to, are ones we have known a while. Sally doen't really like them so much as put up with them because they have learned to stay out of her way. With mum's dogs and my sisters' Sally was walked with them before they came into the house so they could get themselves sorted. She doesn't play with any dogs except Meg and the 2 mini poodles who live next door to dad (don't ask, she has just loved them from the beginning!) We do go to an agility class and she is fine being around a lot of loud, lively dogs as long as they don't get in her face. She leaves them alone, concentrates on her course, doesnt snap if they walk past. It's only if a dog tries to say hello. Eco Warrier - I enjoy reading about you and Fred, it sounds like you have achieved so much together. The advice you were getting is the sort of stuff I was being told, but I don't think it's what I need for Sally because she's so good in all other areas, it's just meeting dogs which is the problem. When I said I felt stressed I meant when the problem first started, and you're right it probably did make her worse, when I eventually did just decide to cope with her behavior rather than focusing on trying to 'fix' my broken dog is when she started making progress. |
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