| Hi and welcome to Terrier Talk! You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features. |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| Help needed for my friend, please | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: May 11 2009, 08:11 PM (234 Views) | |
| dirtychicken | May 11 2009, 08:11 PM Post #1 |
One of the regulars
  ![]](http://209.85.122.87/static/1/pip_r.png)
|
I've just posted a photo of Cooper in the K9 Lounge as we're trying to establish his breeding. He's meant to be JRT/Patterdale but is 14" to the shoulder and weighs 13kgs! My friend took him on last September/October time when he was 12-15 weeks old. Cooper has not been an easy dog at all right from the very start :err: As a young pup he would bark continually when he left the house, went for a walk, played in the garden, looked out of the window. He has been taken to training classes right from the very start and his obedience has come on well, but he still has shocking recall and still has a nasty tendency towards aggression. He has been neutered and vet checked (just to make sure that the aggression is not pain related), plus my friend has had a behaviourist out who has instructed her in the ways of the alpha leader. She has been following this carefully and Cooper managed a few weeks without biting anyone. However, he is now back to biting and biting hard :no: Her arms are covered in scratches and bite marks and bruises. Recently, she was taking care of her 5 year old niece who had spent the day playing nicely with Cooper in the garden but when she fell asleep on the sofa, Cooper tried to bite her leg :err: From time to time, Cooper was muzzled with a fabric muzzle, but she now has a baskerville muzzle for him. However, he hates it and will attack both her and the muzzle and the fight to get it on him ends up with both of them being incredibly frustrated and Cooper being very hyped up. There have been issues with my friend's daughter's boyfriend hitting Cooper. In a way, it's easy to see where it started as his young son often stays over and Cooper has growled and nipped on occasion (for no obvious reason), but it progressed well beyond anything resembling appropriate. This has now been thoroughly addressed and has stopped. I have tried very hard to support my friend with Cooper's training but I've run out of ideas. I can't see why he does this. He really is like Jekyll and Hyde. He can be the most loving, sweet, fun dog, but will resort to biting with no warning and over nothing :err: We have discussed the fact that he may be better being rehomed to somebody more experienced with terriers and even to a working home, but she is very torn between loving the very sweet Cooper and being afraid of - and for - the bitey Cooper. She is fully aware that as the biting becomes more frequent and extends to a further circle, he could very easily be faced with a pts order, so really wants to find a way to make this work for everybody. Please does anybody have any ideas or suggestions that might help? :crossedfingers: |
 |
 
|
| Marean | May 11 2009, 08:15 PM Post #2 |
Total Gas Bag!
|
Oh dear, I'm sorry for this situation :( your friend seems to have done all the right things. Hopefully someone on here will be a long soon with advice. |
|
|
|
| piwoodhouse | May 11 2009, 09:03 PM Post #3 |
Total Gas Bag!
|
The Jekyll and Hyde characteristics you describe are very similar to Alfie, a Parson Russell I fostered. Delightful dog 95% of the time but would attack inappropriately and is sadly quite a frustrated, mixed up boy. Whatever happens, your friend must NEVER leave him alone with a little child again (sorry to sound bossy, but she was lucky this time and the outcome may not be so fortunate next time) as any dog with an unpredictable nature cannot be relied upon. You say Cooper's recall is shocking and he is aggressive (with people, dogs or both?)- does this mean he spends a lot of time on the lead when he's out? In which case, he certainly isn't the only terrier to act this way - on a lead he's stuck, so will play up any mean streak as a self-preservation strategy. Easier said than done but is there anywhere at all you can let him off lead? Disused tennis court in the park for instance? If you take away any risk of hime escaping, your friend could relax more and so there won't be any fear from her for Cooper to pick up on. Does your friend know any sensible, calm and friendly bitch he could meet up and play with? In my limited experience, aggression is generally directed from males to other males. Whether or not a lot can be done here is I guess dependent upon how much time and patience your friend is prepared to devote, in the knowledge that however much she gives it may still not be enough. (Perhaps Lorna (Halfpint) has some practical suggestions) I know of a Patterdale terrier at our local riding stables; in a 'normal' domestic setting he was dog from hell apparently - snappy, destructive etc. With his options fast running out he was 'gifted' to the stables and spends his day ratting and patrolling the premises, now always stopping for a pat because he has the option of taking himself away from people if they get too close (if that makes sense). He's so happy now he has a job to do. I don't know if you've considered one of those Masterplus collars that sprays a jet of water from a remote control unit, but I tried one when my dog became protective and honestly, after three days I had a different dog. It worked for me but I accept it might not work for everyone. Having looked at his picture by the way, the coat looks very Patterdale-esque I have to say and 14" isn't out of range for this breed of dog. The colouring is more Border Collie though! |
|
|
|
| dirtychicken | May 11 2009, 09:32 PM Post #4 |
|
One of the regulars
|
Thank you for your reply :) He wasn't on his own when he went for the child :no: My friend was sat next to the little girl on the sofa and grabbed Cooper as he went for her. He is never left alone with children as she doesn't trust him anyway. He is absolutely wonderful with other dogs - all other dogs. He is walked on lead at all times now - although it is a long line - when my friend walks him on her own, but if I walk with her then he is allowed offlead because I have a steady young lab boy that he can both run with, chase with and come back with. Apart from pulling (which is mostly controlled now by a body harness), he doesn't have any other problems with being onlead. The story of the patterdale is one which we've discussed many times and we have wondered whether he'd be happier having a job to do :err: She's not tried anything like the Masterplus collar but does have a rattle bottle after the behaviourist introduced one during her visit. Maybe the breeding's not as far out as we thought then ;) The collie thing wouldn't be a huge shock either because he does the whole herding thing as well :rolleyes: |
|
|
|
| zandd | May 11 2009, 09:54 PM Post #5 |
Moderator
|
He sounds like a very frustrated dog who is suffering from missing that vital early socialisation period.I honestly think Cooper's owner needs to stop and think this through with a calm non-emotional head.I wouldn't have him anywhere near children without a muzzle - even if there are adults present,it takes a split second to inflict an injury and it's just not worth the risk.I wonder if Lynne from Terrier Rescue could offer some advice,she has so much experience with working Terriers and may know of a behaviourist locally who could help.They also have a forum and sound advice on their websiteIt will be a tough job breaking this cycle,if she is determined to keep him she will need all the help she can get to do so. |
|
|
|
| piwoodhouse | May 12 2009, 01:28 PM Post #6 |
|
Total Gas Bag!
|
Think I may have misunderstood part of your post - thought it was your friend who had fallen asleep, not the 5 yr old she was looking after. Sorry about that! His behaviour would seem to indicate either a fear or dislike of young children, maybe it's the unpredictable movements they make? If so, a baby gate could be the answer, so neither party feels threatened but can observe each other from a same distance. Even though he's missed out on puppy socialisation, l'd look at obedience classes. At the one I go to there are lots of adult dogs getting their first proper taste of learning acceptable behaviours around other people and other dogs. One of them is a 7 yr staffie who has significant issues with aggression. He started off wearing a muzzle and the owner brings along a friend who walks alongside with one of those DAP diffusers and he has made obvious progress, to the extent that last week he did the whole class unmuzzled. Dog training clubs nowadays welcome "problem" dogs and I'm sure your friend would find the environment a supportive one. And if he has issues with other dogs, you can one of two ways: one is to keep him apart from them as much as possible which is completely at odds with his history as a pack animal and the other is to have him learn that mixing with other dogs can be a positive and happy experience. Edited by piwoodhouse, May 12 2009, 01:30 PM.
|
|
|
|
| dirtychicken | May 13 2009, 12:43 PM Post #7 |
|
One of the regulars
|
He does go to weekly obedience classes and has been going since he first arrived :flower: Fortunately, the biggest thing that he has in his favour is that he has no problems at all with other dogs :) Thank you so much for your help and advice :flower: |
|
|
|
| Linda & Fred | May 13 2009, 03:58 PM Post #8 |
Chatterbox
|
He sounds a bit like a JRT I once fostered - he was a gorgeous, cracking little dog, but he'd bite, and hard, suddenly and without warning. We also did a lot of that sort of work with him, and he was 'only' biting once a week instead of daily after a couple of months. He's the only dog I have had to ask to be removed as he bit my son (13 at the time and very sensible with dogs). He went to a couple with a lot of land, who never let him on furniture, never had kids over and never went near him when he was sleeping and seem to deal with him without any effort. Either what they are doing is working, or they're not bothered about the bites! When I got a behaviourist in for Fred, he told me I'd 'trained' Fred to within an inch of his life but hadn't taught him how to 'behave nicely' in the real world. I knew what he meant - he'd walk to heel, recall, finally calmed down in the training sessions, but at home would leap on my other dog at the slightest noise because he just felt like having a go at her. I was told he'd trained me, and now I was trained he was starting to work on Beauty and her fate was apparently to be driven out of the house. He had to stop taking whatever he fancied and had to wait for invitations etc - I was told letting him on furniture wasn't the problem although things would move quicker if I stopped letting him up, but that he should never jump up uninvited. I was also told I praised him WAY too much - probably as a result of the trauma of training classes. So now if he's told something once and he responds, he's praised/rewarded. If I have to make him do what I've asked, or ask more than once, he doesn't get even a 'good dog' which I thought was really harsh, but it was explained to me that Fred felt he never had to do what I said until I made him do it, and he'd get no consequences for misbehaviour (ie not doing what I asked) and still he'd get the praise/reward! What reason did he have to do what he was told? As he was a HUGE attention seeker I had to ignore all requests for attention until he stopped requesting it, then I could invite him for attention. It took 3 very lonely weeks before he stopped demanding and started responding to my requests! I felt like I never got to even speak to him. Fred responded really well to the rattle when he was being rude and bossy and I was advised that a spray collar would work very well on him, but in the end the rattles worked so well we didn't get one. I still find that if I relax too much, his old behaviour creeps back in. If Cooper was responding well and now 'is back' to biting, is your friend still keeping up what she was doing? It's so hard to do, and I only really notice I've slipped with Fred when he plays up again. I just don't notice I'm giving into demands for attention, or back to praising him when he's not deserved it etc. Is your friend really still keeping up the work she started? I would also recheck with the vet. It took me a long time before the vet would give Fred an xray, and even then another 6 months and a second xray before they diagnosed his HD and put him on painkillers. With the knowledge and treatment Fred bites a hell of a lot less (he used to bite 'for no reason'), and when he does bite I know I've overdone it with him - like when I did flatwork agility with him on the Saturday and on Sunday K9 multisports and on sunday night he bit me. Also it explains why he was so very angry the day I was helping organise a big dog show and I had him walking around with me all day long. As soon as we stopped at about 3pm for 'lunch' he went bonkers after me, my mum, the other dogs, and had to be crated for the rest of the afternoon. A terrier should have the stamina for that. That was in between the xrays he had when I was told there was nothing wrong with him. Not saying that is the same for your friend, but these things do happen. Sorry that's quite long and is very my 'my own story' but thought there might be something in there that makes you think 'aha' that sounds worth looking into. I am so glad I persevered with Fred - now he's doing so well I've heard things like 'my BT isn't placcid like your dog' and 'your terrier has a good temperament unlike mine' and this is the dog who had me in tears for nearly a year, had bitten and drawn blood from me, wasn't safe around children, especially toddlers, gone for Beauty, gone for numerous other dogs and bitten my dad too. |
|
|
|
| dirtychicken | May 13 2009, 07:14 PM Post #9 |
|
One of the regulars
|
That's an awful lot of useful information in that post, thank you :flower: I have mentioned his hips before as he seems to be uncomfortable when you touch his back end. You can fuss him anywhere on his head (if he's in the mood), around his shoulders and front legs, his tummy and he's perfectly relaxed and happy, but often when you get to his back end he turns to watch what you're doing. It only flagged something with me because both my ABD and my lab have HD. Although my lab is a lot milder and not very symptomatic, my ABD would do the exact same thing when she was having discomfort in her hips. I believe that he has been checked over by the vet, but not x-rayed. I'll definitely mention it again though :ok: |
|
|
|
| piwoodhouse | May 13 2009, 07:53 PM Post #10 |
|
Total Gas Bag!
|
Coincidentally, Alfie the little Parso I mentioned came into rescue when he was two and a half. His previous owner had had him sicne he was a tiny puppy and when he was just eight weeks old, he fell off her sofa, got his leg tangled in a throw she had on it and damaged his leg. The owner didn't get him anty medical treatment and in fact it wasn't until he came to us that our vet diagnosed a broken/crumbled hip - the femoral head had broken off either through trauma or Perthe's Disease or both and it had been floating about, the jagged edges creating masses of scar tissue for almost two and a half years. If only they could talk! |
|
|
|
| Red Rascal | May 13 2009, 08:02 PM Post #11 |
Chatterbox
|
The only thing I can think of is trying T-touch, if the regular training isn't working. Maybe a weekend course down in Tilley Farm being assessed might come up with some answers. Especially after reading he shows some discomfort when touched around the back end. I was lucky enough to go to a talk in our dog class given by Sarah Fisher and she had many stories very like yours where she was told the dog was biting for no reason, but found the dog actually had very good reasons and was/had givien signals that weren't being picked up on. I'd definitely give it a go if the dog is biting. :flower: |
|
|
|
| Linda & Fred | May 13 2009, 08:04 PM Post #12 |
|
Chatterbox
|
Oh that's wicked! Poor little devil. My dogs go in to the vets for every little mmishap it seems! I hope there is something useful there, sometimes the vets won't take us seriously even though we know our dogs better than anyone. My main problem was going to a training class that worked against Fred's natural terrier instincts and one of the things I had to do was check him when he lunged and put him back into a sit, which usually meant pressure on his back end. How I must have been hurting the poor sod, no wonder he bit me, and he was there 3 times a week for 18 months! He did get up to the top class though. :wub: But forwards, for Fred, never backwards. We're sorted now and I hope your little Cooper gets himself sorted too. |
|
|
|
| RJL | May 14 2009, 10:47 PM Post #13 |
Chatterbox
|
I know you already have lots of infromation and advice to digest...........but here's some more :flower: I know Cooper belongs to your friend, but it's easier just to type 'you' rather than 'your friend' all the time.... Firstly, please do not blame any aggressive traits on the fact that he is a so-called 'working' terrier. A true working terrier, bred by people who are passionate about terrier work and know what they are doing are not the least bit aggressive towards people, generally. They have to be focussed on the quarry, but in the course of a dig, or a ratting expedition, or being asked to bolt the quarry from a tight spot, they can be picked up, passed around, dragged out by the tail, flung on the back of a quad bike....A dog that flies and bites just isn't tolerated. Sadly, a lot of what is advertised as 'Patterdales' etc., are bred by people who have absolutely no real understanding of terriers and are just out to make money and trade in on the whole 'aren't terriers bossy little characters' thing. People buy them because they are generally cheaper than the KC registered breeds. Having said that, most proper working terriers live in kennels or yards and do not have to tolerate the constant buzz of a household. That minor rant aside (sorry - it is something I feel really strongly about) the advice you have been given here is great. Consistency is the key. I'd start with just one signal or word, or even noise, that means you intend to interact with Cooper. Forget clickers - to get a really consistent signal, that you can deliver in a non-threatening way - you could even try singing softly the first few words of a song you like. This will calm you too! As you sing, just drop a treat or two for Cooper. Don't pet him; don't talk to him - just repeat your little tune and drop treats. After a minute or so, say 'that'll do' turn away and walk quietly out of the room. :help: OK - I bet you think I'm completely mad by now.... Make this the only interaction you have for a few days (you can do the same when you feed him. Also make his food more challenging, with chicken wings and food hidden in kongs etc., so he has to engage his brain a bit more to get it) Don't feed too high protein either. At this stage, I would keep him confined to one room, or even a large crate (so it's kennel-size) and only let him out when you sing your song. Some dogs are very, very reactive and sensitive to touch and really don't like it as they lack the confidence to deal with it. This can be part due to breeding and part to early experiences. You just have to build up the touching very, very slowly. Stage 2 is to go in, start your song (which makes you all relaxed and calm and nice and produces a consistent noise) and then, hold the treat near (DO NOT thrust your hand towards him, just kneel down NOT leaning in over him - and hold it) and when he sits, as he will, say 'good boy!' or 'yes!' or some other happy refrain and let him have it. A couple of minutes of this is enough before you say 'that'll do' and leave again. If you are using a crate, get him in the crate before you leave the room, by placing a treat in the crate and using your 'good boy!' happy phrase or word as he goes in. This could take a couple of weeks, but gradually, in the play sessions, you can begin to teach sits, lie down, stays and all manner of things without actually stroking or fussing him. Hyper sensitive dogs are often super-bright but wary (they think too much!!!) Making him use his brain will help calm him and keeping your words and physical actions to a bare minimum will help reassure him that you are a logical and harmless creature - rather than this big tall random thing that comes out with all kinds of gibberish and insists on thrusting your hands towards him for no apparent reason :rolleyes: Eventually, you get a dog that really wants to spend time with you and only when you have built up that bond, should you expect him to stay calm for a cuddle - he'll do that in his own time. Really gradually (as in months) you can start spending more time with him, but realistically, if he's the type of dog who has that very reactive streak, he'll probably be happiest with a proper routine, where he gets a couple of good walks and a few sessions where he has your company and then is left in peace the rest of the time. I'm sure he will become a really devoted little dog. Before I got Dill he had bitten his owner and her partner in the face and attacked a young child all by 8 months old. There is nothing 'wrong' with him and it's not because he's a heeler - or any other such excuses: he just happens to be a very sensitive, reactive specimen and with clear 'rules' and consistent handling, he's a super little worker. He's never likely to be a cuddly sort and if he's not absolutely sure of what I'm tyrying to tell him - or if he feels he should be 'working' he will bark - but that's part of his character and to be honest I'm not bothered by it. We've got a really strong relationship and trust one another totally. Definitely investigate his joints etc. with the vet at the same time though, as there could be something structural making him grouchy. If his leptospirosis jab is up to date and once you have his total trust, why not take him ratting? He might thrive as a stable dog or farm yard dog, because he would have the opportunity to keep himself out of human's way if he chose to do so. I'm sure you can bring him around - if you can bring the whole household on side and don't rush things. I loaned a booklet on dog aggression to someone on this forum - if you are reading this - please PM me: I want it back :wave: I still have the proof of posting, so if it never reached you I can tell the PO. Anyway, if I ever see it again, I could let you borrow it. I'm sure everyone will now think I'm completely bonkers :hyper: but nothing replaces patience and consistency. |
|
|
| Linda & Fred | May 15 2009, 07:38 AM Post #14 |
|
Chatterbox
|
totally agree with all that, but this bit I REALLY agree with. Fred seems much happier now I am back out at work. He gets fed, then his hour walk in the morning with Beauty and whatever customers dogs I have that morning, then I come home, potter about, then go out for three hours. He gets to spend all that time asleep with no worrying what I am doing, am I about to move, am I going to do something exciting, does he need to be ready for anything? etc. Then I come home and if not too tired he gets another short walk followed by play time. He knows what's coming most of the time. The routine has really settled him. Some days there are breaks - but he copes well now. He sleeps sosoooooooooooooo much I keep wondering if something is wrong, but the behaviourist told me he would once he was less anxious. And we haven't had an indoor poo for weeks - except once when I went out first thing in the morning without feeding him. I learnt my lesson! |
|
|
|
| dirtychicken | May 15 2009, 12:35 PM Post #15 |
|
One of the regulars
|
Thank you so much for all the advice :flower: RJL - I'll send all that info on immediately :flower: I forgot to mention that Cooper also has indoor toiletting issues :doh: but that's sort of been covered as well :) I really really appreciate your help and I'm sure my friend will too :flower: |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Training & Behaviour · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
12:42 PM Nov 23
