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| Hari snapped at me today | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 2 2009, 11:07 PM (144 Views) | |
| hannahb | Jul 2 2009, 11:07 PM Post #1 |
Chatterbox
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I'm really worried and feeling very guilty. I was out walking with Hari in the park when a friendly group of three dogs came up. Initially Hari was ok but as they got closer and then stopped to greet Ted and Tom who were at least 5m away, Hari started snarling and pulling - totally ignoring the treat I had to distract her with. Then she turned around and snapped at my arm - I have quite a scratch. I did say a loud NO and Hari did settle almost immediately and then I was able to get her to lie down and focus on me. Then we just continued with the walk. The thing is I feel like she crossed a totally unacceptable line tonight. We have worked really hard around other dogs, and as long as they are under control then Hari is, but the park is always full of roaming friendly dogs out of control. I can't bear the thought of having a dog that snaps at me and am very concerned that this is a slippery slope. So we really need to make sure that she gets the message that this is totally unacceptable. We do walk her on the lead 2x every single day, often take her running and go to training weekly. We will talk to Jo our trainer as well. We have stopped letting her off the lead as her recall is not reliable, however she walks to heel well and we are working on allowing her to go a little way away from us with the lead dropped and then ask her to come back. I am also going to try her on a treadmill and see if I can teach her to like it - that way she can get some additional excercise as she is a high energy dog. She was getting gradually better with other dogs, but I'm clearly not getting it right. I'd be really grateful for some suggestions before I have to start thinking the unthinkable. |
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| Lu20 | Jul 3 2009, 08:20 AM Post #2 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Oh Bea, :hug: :flower: I have no advice to offer but you know someone here will have. Try not to let it spoil your relationship with Hari, she is such a special girl and I can just imagine how upset you must feel. :hug: |
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| Nic | Jul 3 2009, 11:57 AM Post #3 |
Competition Manager
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:stroke: poor you, it sounds like you have had a tyough walk, as Lu says I am sure it was a one off, prob a bit hyped and dont let it spoil your relationship :flower: |
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| Tafia | Jul 3 2009, 01:01 PM Post #4 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Don't be down hearted please! The major positive that shone through when I read your post was that even though Hari snapped & scratched your arm - when you gave your assertive NO she settled immediately, went into a down and focussed! Well done you - I'd say that's pretty fantastic and it could well be that the reaction you gave is just enough for her to temper her response next time. Boo used to be really bossy to Davey in bed at night, if he so much as moved he could get nailed - poor lad, especially so on chilly nights because she's practically lie on top of him. Her reaction was to instantly wake up and tell him off - until one night it was me and I woke up with her jaws around my skull. :yikes: and gave out the most almighty yell. She'd realised immediately what she was doing and her bite inhibition is excellent anyway so no harm done to me. The reason I'm telling you this story is that never once in the years that have followed has she since woken in a fury and nailed Davey - these days he can turn over, stretch etc and she doesn't even stir. Mind games and puzzles are excellent for tiring an overactive/frustrated brain - so is "fun" training. This summer we've been having fun using me as a piece of agility equipment, turning legs into a tunnel to go under, then a jump to go over sort of thing and they've been loving every second of it - even better it mentally tires them out. Last night after a game Davey even walked past an entire Staffy without bothering to sniff! |
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| RJL | Jul 3 2009, 03:58 PM Post #5 |
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:flower: don't worry! As Tafia said, the main thing is that Hari listened to you when you responded to the snap. When you say you offered her a treat, you quite possibly just tipped her over her snapping threshold. The fact it was a snap is a positive - it wasn't a bite! She was just saying 'aaagghhhh - out of my WAY! I need to sort this situation out but I'm all panicky and :help: :cry: :help: ' when your arm came into view with the treat. What you can deduce from this is that when it comes to a situation of this magnitude (as far as Hari is concerned) a mere treat just does not cut it! Imagine the most stressful time in your life and what you might have said if somebody had tried to shove a polo in your mouth (the sweet - not the car) So - you need to be able to do 2 things. One is that you need to be able to get in there earlier in these situations to bring her focus back on you. Two - you need to stay calm (you have already proved to yourself that the firm, calm approach works and the flapping about offering a treat does not) Odd question, but when you go for a walk, are you just walking, or do you break off for some really fun games and opportunities for Hari to win herself some really quality time with you? Would you say that when she goes out she is anticipating a really fun time with you and the most high quality interaction she gets with you at any time - or is she switching off from you and getting tense and wary, waiting for the next 'situation' to flare up and worrying how she will cope, because you are just, well, wandering along? Walks should be the highlight of a dog's day and the chance to really have some fun - on or off the lead. If the lead is just a thing that pops on and signals that you are going somewhere, she isn't going to be happy intil she gets there. However, if the lead signals some real fun and things to do, like heelwork ( ;) which bores me to tears, but Dill likes it!) or picking up things you drop, or speaking on command or anything really, then you are getting the focus back on you. If you see dogs approaching, there is nothing wrong with asking that they are put on a lead and just be honest and say your dog can be aggressive - hence the lead. If the owners get smart, just politely ignore them: they are the ones who aren't in control of their dogs. It is hugely hard at first, but try to focus Hari on you earlier (and if you are already making focussing on you a feature of the whole walk it will be easier) If she does even so much as tense up and prepare to lunge, get the 'no!' in straight away. Don't try to distract her as she has gone mentally past that point and into 'fight, flyte, freeze or fiddle' mode. It is much, much more difficult than it seems to get the timing right sometimes. If she actually lunges - have a phrase like 'oh dear!' (or something stronger) and march her back home in disgrace, or at leat turn around and head back a few hundred yards, so she knows she's blown it! Of course, this will only work if you have already turmed walks on the lead into something every bit as entertaining as walks off the lead and the lead is no longer a sign for her to effectively get somewhere else and be responsible for sorting out any problems on the way. Rather, it will be a signal that you are both in charge of the situation and ready to have fun - if she follows your rules. I am sure you will get through this - you are doing an amazing job with her. :ok: |
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| hannahb | Jul 3 2009, 04:43 PM Post #6 |
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Thanks you guys - some lovely support and great advice I will re-read and have a think. Please don't worry that I'm angry with Hari or frightened of her - if she had been trying to hurt me I would have been seriously hurt - she is a dog who bit a mobile phone in half in one playful chew. I just want to manage things so that I never get to the point of being frightened of her. Hari's main focus has been playing with Ted on walks and we have put a stop to that as she really then doesn't give a rats bum about us when she has lovely Ted to play with. She does really like playing hide and seek so lots more finding things might be a great way of creating focus. The reason I'm going to try a treadmill is so that Hari can then use the walk as much for mental stimulation as energy burning, she will hopefully be calmer and more able to enjoy herself rather than being ever ready to explode (even after a 10k run Hari is just warmed up and ready to get on the go), she has truely phenominal energy even my mum's collies have never had as much energy and endurance as Hari. Tom says we should put her on a street rat diet ;) (as she is just to highly adapted at creating energy from food). I do have a slight fear that the treadmill may create a monster who just becomes ever fitter - I have visions of her setting it up when we are out and secretly training. :hyper: |
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| Marean | Jul 3 2009, 04:51 PM Post #7 |
Total Gas Bag!
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:lol: :lol: I hope you feel reassured by the good advice given here Bea, I know how horrible it must have made you feel at the time but you really are doing such a great job with her so don't lose confidence :hug: |
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| Linda & Fred | Jul 3 2009, 05:43 PM Post #8 |
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Fred used to do this to me when he couldn't get to what he wanted. The only solution I found was to keep him under his threshold, so we'd increase distance with whatever was upsetting him, because often that was the only thing I could control. I rarely ask other people to control their dogs because frankly most of the time they can't call them away. Once dogs gone into 'emotional' mode (sorry can't remember proper word!), they can't access the learning part of their brain, so it's just a waste of your breath and time to give her commands, although from my own experience it's hard not to say something! With some of the dogs I walk the only answer is simply to turn and walk the other way. If you are walking with more than one dog the offlead dogs should be trained to return to you if you stop, and to follow you if you change direction. My initial reaction to offlead dogs is to instruct Fred to 'stay close' which means to come back to me and walk with me (not heelwork), then he's allowed to greet when I say 'say hello', so if I turn and walk the other way because, say, the Bulldog I walk is being a pain in the bum (not a bad bone in him, but he throws himself at other dogs, which they don't like), Fred follows, then there's a pack of 3 going the other way and any other dogs I'm walking can't bear not to follow. ETA sorry, meant to say what most people think of as relentless energy is the equivalent of a toddler running round and round and round to prevent himself falling asleep the minute he stops still. When Fred arrived he needed 5-10 miles of running about a day. Or rather, he needed to learn it was safe to go to sleep, now he's ready fr a snooze after just a mile or two. Edited by Linda & Fred, Jul 3 2009, 05:48 PM.
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| hannahb | Jul 6 2009, 09:13 PM Post #9 |
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Thanks Marean Linda great advice about keeping Hari moving - it does really help. She does sleep a lot and loves a good snooze. She just is an endurance dog. |
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| RJL | Jul 6 2009, 10:30 PM Post #10 |
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If Hari does sneakily assemble the treadmill at night for some extra practice she is definitely the long lost cousin of the heeler :yikes: I've just bought a blender and I suspect Dill is waking up in the night and making power-smoothies :D Looks like you have a promising career in CaniX :) should you decide you want to spend your days running along with a dog on a bungee rope :hyper: |
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| roo roo | Jul 6 2009, 11:48 PM Post #11 |
Total Gas Bag!
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i have a friend on another forum and she got hell from the whippet folk cos she said she walked her beagle for so many hours a day at a few months old.every single person jumped in and gave her hell.without listening to what she had said.she goes for a long leisurely walk in the woods and she does frequent stops for sniffing sitting down etc etc .they just read what they thought she had put.what i am saying is that a beagle is one of the more tireless of dogs they really can be a pain in the bum theyre bred to run for miles and miles tracking etc.and their recall is terrible once their nose is down on a scent. :rolleyes: whippys are bred for short bursts of speed and this sort of exercise would be far too much for a whippet but not a beagle.the ladys an experienced beagle person.my brain damaged Tess bit me on the arm last week and im still bruised but it was my fault id put the pool in the garden and thought she would enjoy a dip in the pool as she loves to go swimming.wrong!as soon as i lifted her gently into the few inches of water she turned round on me and bit, but luckily i got more of a scratch than a bite.(lucky for me as it was in the crook of my elbow on the inside where my veins are near the surface) :phew: theres some excellent advice on this thread,dont give up on Hari and dont get down,every dog can have an off day and make a mistake.just get on with your training and put this behind you.i dont think for a minute it was meant with malice it was just one of those things.also i think in this hot weather both children and dogs (as well as adults) get ratty and short tempered so will react to things that normally theyd let pass. :yes: |
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| piwoodhouse | Jul 7 2009, 01:42 PM Post #12 |
Total Gas Bag!
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Widget's recall isn't 100% either. Oh if he's in the mood and I have the equivalent of a large roast chicken in my bag then he'll always make himself available but if a squirrel turns up, I'm dust. I've tried many training techniques and while he's certainly a lot better compared to the teenage yob he used to be , I have to factor in his typical terrierish wilfulness and accept he's never going to be a biddable labrador. Consequently, I exercise him only in traffic free places and the meadows are ideal because even if he didn't come back to me, he'd still always be too far from a road for me to worry about. On meeting certain dogs that I know don't get on with him, I clip him back on the lead but of course on lead, with no escape route he's far more likely to be reactive. If you add treats to the mix while he's on lead, that's simply more ammunition to add to an already explosive situation. If you think it possible she is frustrated at being kept on the lead, would it be worth going back to basics again, putting her on a long line perhaps (it may be Border Dawn that uses it for training - if not it's definitely someone else on TT - by calling the dog and "drawing" the line in simultaneously so the dog learns when it's name is called, it moves towards you every time) so she gets her freedom but in a controlled way? Also what about deploying Ted in a halfway house way - occasionally when I'm walking two extra dogs I've clipped Widget and Pixel's leads together so they can romp away but fortunately slowly enough to be caught. And I know I bang on about it all the time but that spray collar I used transformed Widget in less than a week from a reactive little spitfire to a cuddlesome pussycat aound other dogs. But I do sympathise hugely Bea and can sense the shock you find yourself in. Thinking of you :hug: |
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| hannahb | Jul 7 2009, 04:03 PM Post #13 |
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:yay: :yay: :yay: for you folks on this forum - such lovely support and wise advice :yay: |
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| Tafia | Jul 7 2009, 07:57 PM Post #14 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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Davey nipped my mum this afternoon after she trod on his tail ...... Don't think he meant to do it more he meant to grab her trousers but still he was in the dog house. I know he's totally capable of controlling his reactions, he'd never even think about nipping my trousers in the same circumstances. But in this case my mum's got to accept a huge amount of responsibility for this, I've told her time and time again that she's too soft with him and she carries on regardless. He needs totally unmoveable behaviour guidelines at all time and the second you deviate he's a handful but it just falls on deaf ears. |
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| hannahb | Jul 8 2009, 09:49 AM Post #15 |
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It is interesting how different dogs are - Ted is generally easy to manage and once he knows a behaviour is unnaceptable he doesn't do it again (though he lacks the concentration and focus Hari has so can be harder to teach tricks to). Hari on the other hand constantly tests the boundaries to see if we have changed our position. When she stayed with my mum, mum simply didn't have the energy to hold a firm line and Hari basically ran riot. |
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