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| Castration and aggression; rant/warning | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 7 2009, 02:59 PM (52 Views) | |
| Laura | Nov 7 2009, 02:59 PM Post #1 |
One of the regulars
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Billy was castrated 2 months ago at 10 months. He healed fine but his behaviour changed dramatically about a week later, he seemed almost depressed, just lying around or sleeping all day. The vet said it was just his hormones settling and he'd be fine in a couple of weeks. A week later he had a nasty fight with a border terrier - had to almost choke them both to separate them, the owner was lovely and said it was possibly her dog as much as Billy so I didn't think much about it (had plenty of fights between the girls and in this case both dogs were fine) he met a few large dogs after that with no reaction, though he didn't want to play like normal. However, a week later Billy attacked another terrier without any warning - no raised hackles, no growl, no snarl, he just walked over to it and grabbed it by the neck, it was horrible. Managed to get him off and made sure the dog and owner were both ok and took him home. He hasn't been off the lead since and I've been walking him early morning or evening and avoiding other dog walkers. He has livened up a bit - not to the level he used to be but we expected (and wanted!) that anyway, he is playing with Meg again and sticking his nose into everything we're doing. I had been letting him say hello to large dogs on lead with no problem, his tail goes crazy and he's lovely with them, I thought he might just have issues with small dogs. Except a few days ago we passed a lurcher type dog, he said hello, wagged his tail, looked fine and then tried to grab it's face with no warning. Thankfully I managed to pull him back far enough to make him miss but it still scared the other dog. Took him in to the vets they found nothing wrong with him I was told "unfortunately because of the dramatic change to their hormonal system SOMETIMES THESE THINGS JUST HAPPEN, YOU'LL HAVE TO GET HIM A MUZZLE"!! I am absolutely furious with the vets, not least for failing to mention this before I had him done. And I am devastated about Billy. He's lovely at home and such a happy loving dog, but because of this he's restricted to being on lead and in a muzzle. I'm thinking the rise in dog aggression in recent years has a lot to do with the rise in neutering. I know it's the 'responsible' thing to do because of the tragic amount of unwanted dogs/puppy's, but I think the vets withholding this kind of information is unacceptable, If I had any idea I would never have had Billy neutered. |
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| Linda & Fred | Nov 7 2009, 07:21 PM Post #2 |
Chatterbox
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So sorry to hear this, must admit haven't heard of dogs becoming aggressive *after* castration, although if the dog is nervy/fearful/anxious beforehand it can make things worse as the loss of testosterone takes away their confidence. I'd ask for a second opinion, most vets don't get very much training in dog behaviour as their is just so much else to learn! :hug: |
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| BorderDawn | Nov 7 2009, 09:00 PM Post #3 |
Moderator
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This is the problem with Vets they NEVER tell of the downsides to catration, Id pull them up on it severely!! :x: Why was your dog castrated? Any nervous or aggressive tendencies are sometimes exacerbated by castration. |
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| RJL | Nov 8 2009, 12:08 AM Post #4 |
Chatterbox
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I can't say for certain, but I suspect that castration was in part responsible for Dill developing the fear-based aggression that took so long to overcome. Before he was castrated, he was a really outgoing, sociable little pup who loved to play with other dogs. Afterwards, he appeared to favoure the 'get it there first' strategy. I also suspect that if he wasn't such a generally sensitive and driven little critter, the effects would not have been so noticeable - but its all speculation on my part, I'm afraid! Personally, I think he was too young to be done at 9 months old, but it was not my decision and at the time, his then-owners genuinely believed it was the best course of action in the circumstances, so I am definitely not blaming anybody. |
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| ClaireS | Nov 8 2009, 02:56 PM Post #5 |
Moderator
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What a sad situation to find yourself in. Poor Billy! I had Archie as a 2 year old and he hadn't been very well socialised. I took him to training classes and both the trainer and my then vet reccommended he be neutered to solve his 'dog aggression'. The problem didn't go away, rather it became worse :( Since then I have changed vets and trainers and now realise that Archie is a typical underconfident dominalt dog who without his testosterone is even more unsure of himself. With careful handling and careful introductions he can make friends, but I have to be on the ball all the time. I really think the vet school syllabus needs revising on this subject. Laura I agree there could be a link between the rise in dog aggression and the rise in the trend for neutering each and every dog :err: |
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| Tafia | Nov 8 2009, 08:20 PM Post #6 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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You cannot remove an important hormone from a dog without there being some sort of side effect. Hormones are incredibly important to ones feeling of well being and confidence, in the same way that some people cope with the flux and flow of their hormones - others don't. It's the same way with dogs. Testosterone is incredibly important for confience and feelings of well being, RJL bought up a very valid point on another thread about this issue - whilst castration reduces those feelings of confidence it does not reduce their adrenelin levels in any shape or form. A young dog, when meeting others would naturally have a release of adrenelin in the brain to a lesser or greater degree, but a castrated dog no longer has testosterone born confidence. Many dogs can cope with this with no problem at all, but some dogs - possibly those who are nervier or had a disrupted socialisation period or plain old naturally less confident could be at a complete loss to understand how to cope with the situation. Edited by Tafia, Nov 8 2009, 08:22 PM.
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| Laura | Nov 9 2009, 05:16 PM Post #7 |
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One of the regulars
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Thanks for all your replies. A few of you mentioned what Billy was like before, as a nervous dog can loose confidence, but that's the wierd thing - he wasn't at all nervous! He was so friendly, wanted to say hi to every dog we saw, was confident, tail never stopped wagging amd was willing to play with everyone. That's why this is so hard, because it's such an extreme change in him. I had him done for a few reasons, firstly because I have two un-neutetred bitches and have no intension of getting them done, and because I didn't want to breed him, and importantly because all the information I was given was that it was not a major op and would not affect him!!! If I had known of side effects this servere I would have just left it. Another thing is that I'm not sure it's fear aggression, he's showing no signs of nerves, fear or being unsure. I wouldn't mind so much if it was because I have dealt with that with Sally for three years and done sooo much research, spoken to trainers and countless dog owners and tried loads of stuff and she has slowly gained confidence and is a completely different girl who can be around other dogs. This just seems like aggression and I don't know how to deal with it!! |
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| Linda & Fred | Nov 9 2009, 05:26 PM Post #8 |
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Chatterbox
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It's best to speak to someone who can come out to see Billy sooner rather than later. No-one will be able to really help without seeing him. It's a minefield getting someone good, but if you check on the KCAI website to see if there is someone local that's a good place to start. Tells you something when getting qualified is so hard only three people have done it for behaviour so far... http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1448 I've been taught that if the dog is off lead and free to do what it likes - it's unlikely to be fearful if it runs TOWARDS whatever it is aggressing towards. I wouldn't suggest you test that! I'm not entirely sure I 100% put my faith in that. |
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| Tafia | Nov 9 2009, 09:38 PM Post #9 |
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Total Gas Bag!
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I thinK Linda's advice is the best - you need someone experienced to come and help. Hormones are incredibly complicated and I don't care what anyone says, there is always a reaction to their removal and no two dogs will react identically. You had little choice in getting one or the other done - it's incredibly hard work keeping an entire male away from females and the height of irresponsibility to allow a pregnancy - you made the best call you knew in the circumstances. Similarly I decided that my bitch would be spayed rather than the male. It is the far more intrusive proceedure but at least there is evidence to suggest some benefits - where there are none in a male. |
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