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Asking For A Chance; Meeting with Thomas More
Topic Started: Jul 6 2017, 01:14 PM (258 Views)
Henry Stafford
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[align=center]July, 1540[/align]

They were hardly settled in London when the time had come for his meeting with the Lord Chancellor. Henry was, if he told the truth on the matter, rather dreading the coming meeting. From his limited knowledge of the man Thomas More was quite the honorable sort and the very image of honesty and honor. In fact he rather thought they could be friends someday if politics didn't get in the way. Both Henry and Thomas were men of letters and seemed to share similar opinions on religion, philosophy and politics.

Sadly politics was always the issue in England anymore. Politics had been the cause that his father was killed. Killed, not executed for treason in Henry's mind. He knew his fathers failings fairly well and was sure he was guilty of something but certainly not treason. And it hardly lent any credence to the legality of the proceedings when the King himself and the nobles with him had so quickly divided up and siezed both his father's lands and Henry's own. All that made it look more like a prearranged murder with the intent of stealing the lands of a noble unpopular with the King.

Thomas More had been involved in the trial but from what Henry had gathered was different than the rest. He had spoken out after the fact questioning the verdict. The Lord High Chancellor had even gone so far as to publicly state that the evidence presented was circumstantial and the testimony against Edward Stafford had been hear say.

None of this had mattered to the King or the nobles who had pillaged the Stafford lands. It did though give Henry some small amount of hope. Henry VIII was dead now and Thomas More yet lived. With his advice and sufferance there might be some chance....some small chance that he could petition for the return of some of the family estates, titles or honors.

With all of that in mind Henry kissed his wife and children in turn and left the modest manor home they had purchased on the outskirts of London. It was only a short carriage ride then into the city and then to the building which housed the governmental offices. Henry studied the outside of the building for a long moment and sighed. Even if Thomas More were sympathetic to his cause would it matter?

He ran through what in his mind were the reasons for his fathers death. Their familial descent from Edward III which King Henry had taken as a threat to his reign was on the top of the list. Might Queen Mary not feel the same? Was it not likely that Parliament might view him, as the son of a disgraced noble, to be a possible threat to those who had stolen his inheritance? Henry scarcely knew what forces were at work here or even who all the players might be.

'Well, nothing ventured nothing gained," he muttered to himself with a sigh. He had already made the decision not to pass quietly into the night and hide in obscurity forever. His wife and children deserved more so he would put it all at risk and try to salvage something from the mess his life had become.

Making his way inside he asked for directions and was eventually directed to Thomas More's offices. Henry marveled for a moment at the grandeur of it all. So much of the business of the Kingdom of England passed through these doors. As important as his own personal matters were they were just a tiny speck of what the Chancellor had to deal with. Steeling his nerve he approached a servant and made his introductions.

"A moment please kind sir," he said to the man, blushing a bit in shame that he didn't even have a title to introduce himself under. Some nobleman he was to find himself in such a sad state. "I'm Henry Stafford and I have an appointment with the Lord High Chancellor. Please let him know that I'm here and I'll await his company."

There, it was done. Now all he had to do was wait and then seek the advice of the one soul who might be inclined to help him.

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As Thomas More stood by the window, his folded hands behind his back, he took a walk in his memories and although he hated to admit, not all of it was pleasant. Henry Tudor or Henry VIII. For most of the people, Henry was a fearful monarch, who was strong willed, stubborn, passionate who had made right and wrong decisions in his life, during his reign. Who became King after his brother's untimely death. Who knows if Henry wanted to be king or he just accepted the faith that God gave him. More couldn't remember now if he ever asked this question of Harry. Yes, as for him, Thomas More Henry VIII was just Harry on many occasions. He was not just his King, but his friend. They were close since Henry Tudor's young age. They studied the stars together from the roof of the Palace, and later they started their fight together against Luther and his adherent lies. They went through to a lot together, maybe this was the reason that their relationship wasn't ruined even when they had differences. And they had that quite often, But More was always proud that he was in a position that he could oppose the King without dreading for his life.

He acted likewise in the time when the Duke of Buckingham was executed for treason, All that happened long ago, but he remembered clearly even now. He wasn't convinced that the Duke was guilty, he did not feel the evidence strong enough, Fron time to time he wondered ever since how could he act differently, in a right verdict was made or not, And although he knew very well that the past cannot be changed, his thoughts returned to the events so long ago, ever since he felt that the past haunted him in image of the reappearance of Henry Stafford.

He got a letter from him a week ago in which he asked for a meeting. Although More, of course, had some ideas what this meeting could be about, couldn't be sure. But of course, he agreed in the meeting and promised himself that he will behave as unbiased as possible. It didn't matter that the return of Stafford could be seen suspicious because of its timing he cannot judge him in advance. Although Stafford's brother in law was more and more suspicious, most probably Stafford had nothing to do with it. And More knew he has to be patient and cautious with his judgements.

When it was announced that Stafford arrived, he turned away from the window and walked into the antechamber to greet him. He so a serious, relatively simply dressed man, whose eyes told volumes of his not so easy past. More had to admit to himself that the very first impression was pleasant. My Lord, let me welcome you here at Court. I hope your journey was comfortable. These were not just polite words. More knew how hard it must be for Henry to return here. And he respected him for having the strength to do so, Please, follow me to my office, there we can talk privately and without interruption. Do you wish to have some refreshment

That simple office was More's real realm, with its simplicity and practicality. It wasn't lavish at all what suited More perfectly. More closed the door and walked back behind his desk. Please take a seat. What can I do for you?


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Tag: Henry Stafford.

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Henry Stafford
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He returned More's greeting with all the courtesy that was due the man and his station. Truth be told Henry had the utmost respect for the man. Sir Thomas More represented, in his mind anyway, all of the things that were right with England. The realm would be well served to have many more like him in service.

"Thank you for agreeing to see me. No refreshments for me please but thank you for the offer."

Henry followed him them to the office, eyes not missing a single detail as they passed. He couldn't help but not the modesty shown in the simplicity of the decor. Yes, he got the feeling that More was a man he could talk to and trust. Soon they were seated and he was asked for the reason he was here.

"Good Sir, I am in need of your advice. You know well what befell my father, though I'm not sure you realize what it meant for those of us who survived."

Here Henry paused for a moment. He did not want to be seen as complaining or demanding, though by most peoples reckoning he would have reason to complain. Sir Thomas was one of the few people in the world though who might be sympathetic and he did not want to alienate him.

"To speak plainly I believe my father's real crime was to speak out against Cardinal Wolsey's policies in the privy council. They were opposed to each other over various policies and as was the way in those dark times used the courts and attempts to poison the King's mind as weapons. Obviously the Cardinal won out in the end but he too fell prey to King Henry's ire in short order, avoiding execution only because he had died too soon."

Those were dark and bitter times for everyone Henry realized. Wolsey had only outlived his father by a few years. How he wished by the grace of God that it could have been the other way around. Then he might not find himself in such dire straits.

"All of that is past history though. We cannot change it but I do seek your advice to gain relief for myself and my family. By the terms of his attainder not only was my father declared guilty but our family was stripped of all lands and titles and forbidden to hold any. Not only was his own titles and lands taken by force but my own as well. I had been, on my own account and not inherited of my father, styled the Earl of Stafford with lands and honors of my own.

I still remember the day that the Kings men came and none too gently 'escorted' us from Thornbury castle. We were allowed to leave but only with the clothes on our back. They all but ripped the rings from my wife's fingers in their haste to profit from our misfortune. Even now, under the terms of that verdict, I could be found in contempt for having purchased a home for my children to grow up in. Were it not for the fact that I had invested well and my wife's dowery we would be nothing more than beggars on the street."


Of course he had no doubt that was exactly what Wolsey had intended. Though he hadn't expected what had happened Henry's foresight had saved them from such a fate. Now though he was little more than a country squire and businessman. Hardly what he could legally expect given the status he was born to.

"Now I believe that I am within my rights to petition parliament and the Queen for some relief and to void the terms of the attainder, especially since it was in hindsight more egregious in term than any that had come before it in the modern legal era. In fact I think that I could request reinstatement of my fathers titles or other lands to be awarded as compensation. That is where I need your advice though.

Politics played a major part in our downfall. I do not know the players now or the circumstances in court well enough to navigate such proceedings. For all I know Queen Mary feels the same about my family as her father did towards the end. If such is the case where would I stand?

I am a loyal servant to Her Majesty. I want what is just for my family but also to help her in securing her reign and the peace of England. For all I know my bringing this case now could endanger all of that. So, I ask you as a man of justice and an officer of our Queen.....how should I proceed? Should I await another term or press forward? And will you help me to see some justice done in all of this?"


It was a lot to take in he knew so, having spoken his mind Henry sat back to await whatever reply Sir Thomas would make.

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As More listened to Henry Stafford first words, he knew this won't be an easy conversation. Nor a short one, He put his fingertips together in his lap and his mind went back again to those days, The situation wasn't simply that time and wasn't easy now either. And More wanted to see at first what kind of man Stafford became through the years. He couldn't know if he could trust him if he could believe a single word that leaves his lips, He might be an honest man but maybe the wish for revenge blackened his soul. More tried to look at him as a blank page and waited that he would show his true self. My Lord, of course, I'm very well aware what happened to your belated father. As you may remember I was part of it in a way too, And of course what happened after that. Confiscations are really the common procedure by this verdict. More wasn't cold nor cruel, he just stated facts. If you are charged with treason it is no wonder if your means are taken away t try it again. Whether the treason happened, was a different question.

More raised an eyebrow and his face darkened. What does Stafford expect? That he, More will course Wolsey the same way he does? That kind of openness would be suicidal, And More couldn't even agree with that, He and Wolsey had differences, fights over the years, but More was well aware that Wolsey had huge knowledge and also abilities which even he, Thomas More lacked. My Lord... although no douth Thomas Wolsey was involved in the happening past, if I were you I wouldn't blame him so categorically You seem to forget something. King Henry was never a man who could be influenced so easily. I know it's always easier if we find someone whom we can curse, we can blame. He lifted up his hand to stop any opposition. Don't get me wrong, I don't say Wolsey was blameless... You should simply talk more carefully. As you said so yourself the death of your father was a political matter. Yes, maybe it was. But don't have illusions if you want to win your estates and titles back... that will be a political matter too. And if you take my advice, if you wish to have any success, you have to learn to speak more... diplomatically. Otherwise, you will have too many enemies too soon enough. More was really glad that this conversation had no witnesses. Stafford accusation could cause the man a lot of trouble.

As for the Queen... If I were you I would not judge her too quickly. She might be young, but she is clever and just. And you will find that she is more her mother's daughter than her late father. And she won't be influenced by her father's earlier decisions. She likes to make decisions herself, And More was really proud of her because of that, On my next audience with her I might bring up his request to see how she reacts. Right now I would say I would see a very good chance to get your own estates and title back. And with time and after you proved yourself,,, He didn't finish the sentence. He did not want to make empty promises.

My I have a question, my Lord? Why did you return now? Why now? Not earlier or later? This reply could tell a lot too.
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Henry Stafford
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Henry let Sir Thomas speak. That was of course why he was here after all, to seek the other man's council and advice. And as it turned out he seemed to speak just the words the landless noble most needed to hear.

"I must beg your pardon good sir. Yes, I did let my frustrations get away from me and speak too much from emotion rather than logic."

He sighed for a moment, gathering his thoughts before continuing.

"That is just the reason I came to you. You are well known throughout the realm as being an honest man...one of honor. To me you seemed the best one to speak to concerning all of this as my first step. I do hope you can forgive my indiscretion but it seemed important to be honest first and foremost with you so you would know the position I find myself in."

The Chancellor was right though. Henry would need to start thinking like a politician if he wanted to succeed. His father had trained him such things but he was out of practice and, as a scholar by nature, the games of intrigue did not come so naturally to him. Perhaps he was just too honest by nature for this sort of thing.

"At any rate your council is sound and I will endeavor to follow your advice. My moments of anger and hurt pride are not proper Christian behavior. Thank you for reminding me of that.

As for Her Majesty, that is much how I remember her from days past. Years ago, before all of this and in happier times, I actually had the opportunity to meet her and Queen Katherine in court. They were both of them very impressive and I was taken with how the young princess seemed so self assured and clever even at such a tender age.

It pleases me greatly to hear she has grown into her new role as Queen. Come what may with my own issues I can only wish her well and hope that England prospers under her care. If you would be so kind as to speak to her on my behalf I would surely be in your debt."


Despite himself Henry smiled at Sir Thomas' question. He had wondered when that would be coming.

"In my exile in the country, away from all the news of court, I'm afraid that everything that has been happening reached me a bit later than it did most people. I heard tale of the Regency and then how well our young Queen seemed to be doing once given the chance. Especially interesting to me was how power had shifted from the Privy Council to the Parliament.

To be quite honest I was afraid to press the issue before because I didn't think the Privy Council would welcome me or my claims. Since Her Majesty seems more secure now and with a strong mind of her own it seemed now was my best chance at success. And, if I may be so bold, I wanted to take the opportunity to come serve in her court in whatever capacity she might wish. She is a Monarch I would gladly serve and it seemed only my good Catholic duty to offer my services in times like this."


And all politics aside that was the God's honest truth. He didn't want to come to court as a beggar seeking favors. Better by far to prove himself as well and to earn any honors the Queen might see fit to bestow. The cause of Catholicism was far from safe in England as he saw it. Now he saw a chance to serve Queen and his faith and Henry did not want to be found wanting in his service to either cause.



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Thomas More
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Well. this conversation had a very rough start, to say the least. but More honestly didn't blame Henry Stafford for it. His visitor went through hell in the past years, lost his family, his fortune.... And still, More was almost sure now that Henry Stafford remained an honest man through the years. Some might say too honest but now More considered it as God's guidance that he lead Henry Stafford in his first. They were similar in many ways and More could really agree that Wolsey or the late Henry wasn't easy people to deal with or live with. They could cause great harm to many. But if the person was lucky and strong enough they could have a second chance, a new start. And Henry Stafford was close to having it. It was also up to him that this return could be a successful one. He shook his head and a soft smile played on his lips. There is absolutely no need to apologize, my lord. It just shows that you are a human being. But you need to know that this world can be cruel to human beings, so you have to be cautious.

As More listened to him further More started to feel uncomfortable. An honest man, a man of honour... Oh, if Henry Stafford would know if the world would know...But of course, they won't know as he promised to keep this secret. He shook his head slightly to force himself return to the present. Don't worry, I wouldn't call it an indiscretion.You just haven't played the Court's chess game for a long time. But I think you will find back with ease. More really meant what he said. Stafford seemed to be intelligent and flexible enough. And something told More that Henry Stafford has very good chances to get at least a part of his property back.

More listened with a proud smile how Stafford remembered the young Mary Tudor. He remembered those days very well, And if he considered that Mary just became more grown up, wiser, a real Queen. He hoped that soon Stafford himself will see that Mary is a true blessing to the country. Mary was indeed an impressive young woman. And although God took away her father way too early Queen Mary had grown up to the task.But she might stand before a period full of changes full of challenges, More was careful not to mention the imminent marriage. ]There is a drought on the Continent and we still have to fight a vicious battle against the heretics, those mislead followers of Luther. So... if you indeed plan to be loyal to the Queen then I can tell you there is always a need for men. There are always tasks to do, duties to fulfil. And I would lie if I would say I wouldn't need one or two helping hands. Then More realised that his words could be taken in a wrong way so he quickly corrected himself.
But please don't think that my help to you has conditions. The fact that I help you because I feel you deserve it and the fact that I would always need supporters are not connected, but facts.
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Henry Stafford
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Henry nodded as More continued to speak. While he resolved to be more cautious with his words in the future the Chancellor's words gave him some relief and some small hope. Maybe his quest would prove fruitful after all. It was apparently most wise that he had come to Sir Thomas before anyone else.

"I do plan to be loyal to the Queen. How could I not?" he replied after a moment's thought. "Despite my own personal troubles I'm still an Englishman. It is my duty. And even if it wasn't she is, from what I gather, the best parts of both her mother and father. That is a formidable combination to rule a realm."

As More elaborated some of the problems facing England and her Queen Henry frowned thoughtfully.Even though he had been an exile of sorts he had heard tale of most of this. Things must be really bad now though for the Chancellor to speak so openly of it.

"I had heard of the drought from my correspondences abroad. It sounds serious...more than serious really. The loss of life and crops is already staggering...."

He couldn't really elaborate any more than that. What was there to say? What part England might play in that was beyond Henry at the moment but he was sure it would all become plain in time.

"And of course the heretics as a problem is to be expected. Poor misguided souls....such a shame really but we can't let heretics prosper. To do so would make the Queen seem weak and ineffective. And of course we have the problems to come. The low countries are a powder keg now, ripe for revolt against the Spanish. When that erupts into war it will no doubt affect us as well."

There was little point though in worrying over much about problems that hadn't happened yet. Henry had enough to worry about with the present. He would still try to be mindful of the future though so such things wouldn't catch him by surprise.

"Whatever the case I am the Queen's humble servant. Just let me know what I can do and I'll help any way I can."

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More himself started to feel more relaxed. And started honestly feel that it was God's work that they met here and now as it was more and more apparent that they could both help each other. How could you not? Interesting question. But believe me, there are many who are not this loyal. And a great part of them tries to hide this, and they are playing falsely. But it's really the first step that you made in the right direction. And I hope that soon enough you can meet the Queen yourself and you can judge for yourself how she is. But I can honestly say that I serve her not just because I consider that my duty, but I do it willingly and with pride. Mary indeed inherited the determination from both of her parents but her father's cruelty and over-stubbornness were missing from her. And as More thought about this now he realized again how vital it is to find a right husband for her who will help her and will make her even greater.

As Stafford mentioned his correspondence, More's eyes lit up. So it's true then that we are both men of letters? It's good to hear that you stayed in touch with the world even in the hardest years. The correspondence with my friends is also an important part of my life. I always try to find some time for it even if it means sleeping less. A half smile appeared on his lips, which suddenly disappeared though. I just hope that your disappointment and feel of neglect didn't poison your letter too much and you did not paint a too dark picture of England. That would be most unfortunate. More realised that maybe it was a mistake that he didn't pay more attention to Stafford. But hopefully, it wasn't.

He silently nodded as Stafford talked about how he saw the situation about the heretics. His observations were painfully accurate. Can I have a question, my lord? If you had the means and opportunity what would YOU do against Luther and his heretics? I'm well aware that my question might sound strange, but I'm always glad to hear new perspectives, new approaches.

Then he suddenly felt the urge to know this man better. Are you sure you don't want anything as a refreshment? And if I don't want to offend you but I would be pleased to hear about your life, how you spend the days. Or am I too curious?


OOC: So, so, so sorry for the wait .... :(
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"There is wisdom to what you say," Henry said after a moment's thought. It did his heart good to hear More's kind words about the Queen. In fact it gave him more hope than he had had before. But not having seen the truth of this himself he couldn't let his hopes get too high. After all, after his first meeting with King Henry he had such admiration for the man that the later events only seemed an even worse betrayal.

"I'll have to meet her as you say to understand. Not that I doubt your word of course. I truly hope that she is all you say. If so then I too would gladly serve her with a glad heart and not only out of obligation."

When his host started speaking of them both being men of letters Henry couldn't hide the smile on his face. His intellectual pursuits had become such an important part of his life during his time away from court. It was good to find someone else who appreciated such things.

"Ah yes, missing sleep to write a letter or for a good book. That too has been my way of life. I've quite a few books you know. In my time away I took to collecting them. Perhaps you would like to see what I've managed to gather one of these days."

He had come here for help and it appeared that he might have found a friend.

"I never spoke ill of England in any of my correspondence. Though I did keep it in mind that should things not work out when I returned then I might be forced to move abroad. It wouldn't have been my first choice but if my reception in court were too....negative....then I would have tried to save my family by moving to another country where we could live in peace."

Fortunately it did not seem like he would have to do that. There was still much to discover of course and the final decision hadn't been made on his fate. It did seem though like there was a place in England for them after all and maybe he could redeem himself in some way.

More's next questions caused him to hesitate a bit. It struck him as odd that a man so accomplished would seek his opinion on such an important matter. Even more so that his host would show any interest in him as a person. Maybe there was much more to the Lord Chancellor than he had dared believe. Could Thomas More actually be such a good and caring soul?

"Ah yes, Luther....at the risk of sounding less than pious I must confess that I view it more as an intellectual problem and less as a spiritual one. By this I mean that I never really questions the religious convictions of others so long as they don't threaten me. In a way I think of the words of Jesus when he said 'Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.' It always seemed that it was a matter for the Pope or the Monarch to address."

Henry was quiet for a moment gathering his thoughts. The question was what would he do, not why had he done nothing.

"My advice to anyone who is dealing with the problem Luther presents though is not persecute his followers too directly. Most are simple people and their only sin is believing the words of a man whom they see as a servant of God. Attacking his followers only makes them believe all the more in what he says.

I would think we would need to kill his heresy at the top. Discredit Luther himself in some way. Make those who follow him question his vision and his work. It isn't the easiest way to do it mind you. Ideas are terribly difficult to destroy once they have been set loose. But better a slow and certain solution than an easy answer that only causes more problems in the long run."


He was at a bit of a loss to answer the rest of More's question. Henry paused a bit, pondering how to best answer.

[/b]"How do I spend the days?"[/b] he asked thoughtfully. "Mostly in quiet contemplation. That and spending time with my family. My exile has been a mixed blessing I suppose. Though our future was always uncertain I was able to get to know my children and spend time alone with my wife in ways that most nobles never enjoy since they must tend to their lands, plots and titles. It's been a blessing in many ways you know. I would still like to be back into the Queen's good graces and secure a legacy for my children though. We've secured them a warm and loving past but now I need to look to their future as well."


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Ooc: No worries. Life can be like that sometimes.
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More was more than happy to hear that Henry Stafford seemed to warm up towards the Queen but in the next moment he knew as well, that the whole situation was very delicate. I promise you I will do everything in my power to grant you an audience with her, but please, my lord... and I know this might sound strange after what I just said, but please, don't have too high hopes. I mean I praised Mary to you and I would never take back any of my words, but don't forget Mary is young and she is human. More just wanted to make sure there won't be too much pressure on any party when this meeting takes place.

Then an almost apologetic smile appeared on More's face. And does your wife nag about reading instead of sleeping or that is just my privilege? It was a never stopping battle between him and Alice. Although they did not share a bed Alice somehow always knew what he did and when. That was among the many reasons why he spent less and less time at home. But then he shoved that thought away, and at the mentioning of Stafford's book collection, his eyes started to shine excitedly. Oh, I would like to see that very much. There are times when there are no better, safer and more comforting friends than books. More meant every word he said. There might be things in books you cannot agree, but they never betray you,

Well, although I cannot speak with utter certainty, I would say your family shouldn't prepare for an imminent move. I think it's highly the time to try to mend the wounds of the past and look into the future. I'm convinced that that is what serves's England's best interest. We can prosper just in peace.

"Ah yes, Luther....at the risk of sounding less than pious I must confess that I view it more as an intellectual problem and less as a spiritual one." At this sentence, More raised an eyebrow but forced himself to stay silent and don't judge too harshly anything his visitor has to say. Exactly this was the reason he asked his opinion. For one to see was the stands and for two to possibly hear about new perspectives. And then as he heard the sentence about sins and the stone he needed every ounce of his self-control not to betray himself. Stafford probably had no idea what a sore point he had hit. But he did everything to hide his feelings. So you are the supporter of the religious freedom to say? So you don't think that those who follow Luther's doctrines are wrong, mislead, maybe even committing a sin against our Lord?

Then as Stafford went on More became more and more silent. What Stafford said was almost against everything he held secret and still a tiny part of him wanted to believe. Something told him though that Stafford is not such a great supporter as he first thought. But what if Stafford is right? What if really burning people is unnecessary and wrong, as a tiny part of him sometimes felt? My dear Lord, do you want to teach me something? Or is that the Satan's whisper I hear in my hears? When he answered his words were slow as if he would search for them. I see... I will consider your words. But please, never believe that I would search for an easy path. I search for the right one.

Then as he listened to Stafford he was surprised but felt enví. Envy for this kind of blissful and safe life. I know what are you coming from, my family, my children are the most important for me too. Maybe that what happened to you, your exile and everything was not a punishment but a way to lead you back to your family and to find peace. Are you sure you want to risk it?

And it was the bitterest of all the thoughts that he will never have such a full bliss Stafford experienced. The thought left a bitter taste in his mouth and pain in his heart.

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He was thoughtfully silent while More cautioned against being overly optimistic. It was a bit odd after his earlier words but Henry considered it as wise council. Sir Thomas knew the Queen well but who could really predict how she might react? Best not to expect too much, at least not right away. Still, he had to take the chance.

His expression changed to one of amusement when asked about his wife's reaction to Henry's late hours. It was ironically enough one of the more difficult parts of their marriage. Ursula required a fair amount of attention at the best of times. If he had been too involved in his studies of late she could be down right indignant over it.

"Ah yes, I too share in that privilege. Sometimes I can be neglectful of her and then make every effort to spend as much time as I can afterwards. For now though she is so pleased to be back in proper society....or at least close to it. That is one of the most important reasons I want to redeem my name. She deserves so much more than I've been able to give her so far."

Henry was pleased by Thomas' reaction to his invitation. It would seem that there was a certain brotherhood between scholars and men of letters. What More said about books being good friends struck a cord in his own mind. That was how he too saw them.

He was less pleased when his host asked about his views on religious freedoms. Truth be told Henry wasn't entirely certain of his views. It was something he didn't like to dwell on because he couldn't see any real answer to it all. He was not about to back down though from the intellectual challenge of it all. That and it seemed in the moment to be entirely honest with More was the best option.

"To be honest I'm not entirely certain what to make of the whole thing," he said, clearly at a loss. The embarassment showed plainly on his face but he pressed on none the less.

"You know, I've studied the Bible many times and the writings of theologians as well. I do my humble best to understand the will of God but the finer points seem to elude me. Maybe that is why I take such comfort in our faith. The certainty of it appeals to me. Well understood canon and guidelines that we can all understand and live by...."

Here he paused, taking a moment to gather his thoughts. Sir Thomas asked good questions that made him think. Henry hoped they could talk about this and many other topics in the future once his own place in society was more properly sorted.

"They do sin. I understand that. But I keep coming back to the fact that most are simple people trying to live good lives. Their trust in Luther is misplaced for certain but then is the sin not more his then theirs? If a man is tricked into a sinful life by means he cannot understand is it truly right to burn him? Or would understanding and re-education not be better?

Don't get me wrong. I see where heresy must be stamped out. But I've seen God's stern, angry side in scriptures and then contrast it to the loving, forgiving side of the new testament. Which is the proper response here? The vengeful or the compassionate? I'm glad that it's not my responsibility to decide. While I believe in the gospel with all my heart I don't feel even close to wise enough to make the choice in such a matter."


That and he knew that he was no where near as pious as the church fathers would wish him to be. If he were entirely honest with himself Henry would admit that their were some legitimate complaints about worldly priests and church excesses. Turning against the Pope and the Holy Church entirely though was a great over reach and he believed Luther needed to be punished for it. But on the matter of the masses he had misled....did they deserve so harsh a fate? He couldn't say for sure.

"So I hope you don't judge me too harshly. I'm a believer but sometimes not as pious as I should be. The affairs of the world and my studies blind me after a fashion to the more spiritual world beyond. I fear that I might not have the wisdom to make sound scriptual judgements in such things. Discussing it with you now though makes me remember I am long over do for the confessional. It is high time perhaps that I ponder these things more closely."

Despite the seriousness of the conversation he couldn't help but smile at what his host said next. It was something that Henry had also wondered about. His decision had been made though and it seemed only proper to give More the reasons for that decision.

"We did find peace but it was like a gilded cage. We were safe but only so long as we remained unnoticed and unheard. How can I raise my children to strive for the very best life has to offer if I don't demonstrate the same commitment. My daughter is nearing the age where we would try to find her a proper husband and my oldest son has shown some interest in serving in the military one day. If those things are to come to pass I must have some finality to our position in society."

Again he paused. More had a way of making him think. It wasn't entirely comfortable but these were topics that needed to be addressed.

"Ursula, my wife, loves the glamor of society. She misses the company of her peers. I cannot begrudge her that. She is descended from Kings, as am I....though I hope not to sound overly proud of the fact. It is my opinion that nobles should try to make the world a better place and to change it for the better....and that is what I hope to do. Maybe my experiences will make me appreciate nobility all the more and to be the sort of man who fulfills his obligation to make the world better."

The Poles and the Staffords had both been ruined and cast aside by King Henry because they were popular and both had strong ties to the earlier Plantagenant dynasty. He it seemed had seen them as threats. Henry hoped to rewrite that narrative and redeem his family for his children's sake, his ancestors sake and his own too. Maybe he was overly proud in that but it was a quest he could not let go of.

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Thomas More
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More listened to what Stafford told about his life, how his wife stood to his love of books. He could get a glimpse into a world he never really knew and most probably never will. And that caused such a sharp pang in his inside that he had to get up and pour a goblet of water for himself. He looked at his guest again if he still doesn't want anything. Alice's problem with his late night reading was not that she felt neglected. Oh, that wasn't in the nature of their marriage. She was worried that her husband would overuse his eyes or was nagging that they were using too many candles. And for her books were a nonsense waste of time anyway, as she sometimes said, but as she was proud that her husband was known as wise and well-read he repeated this opinion of hers just rarely, And if he could have the bliss of sharing his life with Elizabeth... Her he would never neglect, How could he? And he wouldn't even have to as Elizabeth loves books herself, so they could even share their passion for reading, More now thought how strange life was. Stafford lost everything and still had something that More longed for. A real family life. And now he realized that he will be the one who will never have this, as Eliza hopefully will experience it in her marriage. Now he forced his thoughts to return to the present and to the reality. Don't be too harsh on yourself, my dear lord. I'm sure your wife appreciates what you did for your family. That you did everything you could. And the most important is that through all this hardship and danger you stayed together. You both stayed true to your vows and all this just made your union stronger.

More saw clearly that the topic of religious freedom was far more comfortable for Henry Stafford. For now, he wasn't sure why. Was it because he really didn't know what to say? Or was it because it was so long ago when Stafford could share his opinion on serious matters? Or he was afraid, to be honest with him as he still thought he is the pious, almost monk-like Thomas More? Time will tell. He slowly walked back to his desk, in the meantime he listened attentively. Please, don't feel uncomfortable because of my question, Then as Stafford went on More just nodded softly. You see, that is what I'm talking about. We share our trust in faith. There were so many times in my life that I was lost, I didn't know how to go on, I always knew that our Lord will take me up, will help me. It gave me strength and comfort. Is it that terrible that I want this blessed state for every soul? And... you know we fathers sometimes see that our children run toward an abyss and we sometimes step in a bit forceful in their sake, I feel the same about the followers of Luther? Or am I too bumptious if I think myself such a father-like figure?

He listened to Stafford attentively softly tapping his chin in the meantime. Then he started to speak slowly. If I follow my own analogy... If a child makes a mistake... Is it entirely their fault or their parents who failed to raise him properly. Hm... there is something in your words. But we still had to do against the masses as well otherwise there will be more and more of them who spread Luther's lies. And how could we "re-educate" them as you say? And this leads to the main problem. I fight against Luther for decades. And he always manages to slip out of my fingers. What could I do? What could we do? What could anyone do? Sometimes I even wonder if our Lord is on his side. Then he smiled bitterly. You say you don't think you are wise enough. But who judges that? Who says what is a right decision? More left the question open, as he himself wasn't sure what to answer. And as so often ever since he got his office from the late Henry VIII, he felt the real weight of his chain of office.

You say you are "not as pious", and it is a common charge against me that I'm too pious. Maybe our association can be eye-opening for both of us.

As they returned to the topic of Stafford's family, More was grateful that he had time to gather his thoughts and calm down. And soon he had to realize that he can't forget that he is the Chancellor of England, even here and now, And although he completely understood where Stafford was coming from with the wishes for his family, as he would do the same, he became alert.

I couldn't agree more on your thoughts about the noble's responsibility on bettering the world. And I wouldn't condemn you for being proud of your wife. However... He hesitated, wasn't sure how to form his words as he wouldn't want to offend his visitor. If I were you... I wouldn't be too proud. Your wife's Plantagenet heritage can still impose threat in the eyes of many. And imagine yourself in my place. Just for a second. What would you think if you would see that members of a rival royal family slowly would start to return to Court and power?



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Henry Stafford
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"It is not terribly to want that state for every soul," Henry replied thoughtfully. "But we feel the comfort of our Lord and have not turned from the church. How much suffering can we as good Christians condone to bring these lost souls back home? And how strong will their faith be even if they return to the flock out of fear? That is what I cannot fathom. I can only trust in those wiser than myself to make such choices."

Henry really did find the whole business of fighting over faith to be tedious. While he could see the need for it there was still some stubbornly logical part of his mind that wondered if there couldn't be a better way.

"How to re-educate them? I can't say for certain. Maybe it is just me trying to find a perfect, peaceful solution where none exists. No doubt the Lord is testing us by putting such challenges in our way. This particular challenge though....I just feel so inadequate to answer for it. I can only hope that He will send us some manner of inspiration to make sense of it all."

Sir Thomas then changed the subject to a different but still peril fraught topic.

"I can be proud, within reason, if only in the privacy of my own thoughts. Trust me I know not to speak of such things too openly. In fact I only mention them here because I feel I can trust you to understand my intent. Royal ancestry is of little use if it amounts to a death sentence for the living."

Henry paused for a moment, trying to gather his thoughts. It was oddly invigorating to discuss such wonderfully deep topics with someone else who could match his own with. He had to be mindful though that this could also be incredibly dangerous as well. Henry trusted More but only so far for the moment.

"I do imagine myself in your place and thought what I might say. You are right to be suspicious and that is the reason I had considered just fleeing into exile. It is very confounding for me. All I want is to belong and have a position in the court....not necessarily so powerful as my father enjoyed...but I do hope to earn the Queens trust to better my standing in time."

It was terribly difficult to put it all into words. Henry didn't want to be King. Duke maybe in time but he had no illusions on that point. But didn't he deserve some title....an Earldom perhaps, considering his lineage and past suffering inflicted upon him? That didn't sound terribly unreasonable all things considered. But politics, as usual, had to make things more difficult.

"It's funny in a way," he said after a long moment. "Both branches of the Plantagenent dynasty couldn't restrain themselves from fighting over the throne. The Lancasters, whom I am descended from and the Yorkists who were my wifes family, did such awful things to each other and England in their lust for power. And what did they accomplish other than nearly destroying the country?

If we are honest about it even the Tudors are Plantagenants. Henry the VII was descended from the Lancastrians and married an influential Yorkist princess to combine the two clans. From my position it is almost as if the war still continues and all I want is peace."


Henry felt a bit guilty in laying all of that out for his host to consider. No doubt Sir Thomas knew all of that but the thoughts had been building in Henry's head for ages and needed to be let out before he went mad.

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