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Battlestar Galactica Razor; discussion of the mini-movie
Topic Started: Nov 24 2007, 09:16 PM (335 Views)
jdono
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Until I can think of some other photo...
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Well, we are about half-way through this, and I feel like tossing a few things out there.
First of all, what's with the 'and now we know...' stuff. Were we supposed to be figuring out some puzzle at some point?
Second of all is the news that in a week or so, we can go out and buy the unrated and uncut version of this. Neat, huh?
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jdono
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Ok. I guess that we were supposed to figure out those things, at least that's what I gathered from the commercial. Whoops.
As far as the show itself goes, it seems that the only real piece of info that we got was the thing about Starbuck. At least info as it pertains to the current story. I thought it was a good story. It bounced around a bit much for my liking time-wise, but it was good none-the-less.
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monty24llr
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It was ok, but I have to say overall I wasn't that impressed.
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Kerra
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20 Years Strong
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Warning: Please do not read if you have not seen Razor. There are spoilers past this point.

:ph43r: *********************************************** :ph43r:


I liked it, and the reason being is that it focused on the tough decsions people have to make in tough times. I see a lack of that in this first decade of a new century and so the philosopher in me was pleased that this subject was emphasiszed.

I like Cain. All her decsions were wise with the exception of the one, and although I understand the agrument behind it, I still can't go along with killing your own kind (especially families) to save the race. Humanity has to be better than that or they do not deserve to survive.

And now I hate the Cylons with an emotional passion. The are evil. They lack any sort of morality or ethic. Their God is false. I simply have no empathy for Cylons any longer. If that is what this snippet into the past was suppose to accomplish then the writers and producers met their objective.

I also liked Adama's storyline. It gives a better feel to how he thinks and his strategy against the Cylons. His passion is to always give humans a chance and it is because what he saw. My admiration for Adama went up and it was all ready high.

As for Lee, I seem to like him less and less. Even though Thrace is in complete question now (as I have always suspected she is the 5th or so it seems) he was still willing to kill her to get rid of his personal problem with her rather than try another path to meet the objective. Lee Adama would never be my boyfriend!
:(
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monty24llr
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Wow! I couldn't disagree more about Cain. One can't help but wonder how many bodies piled up on her way to admiral, never mind her lack of concern for the continuance of the human race after the attack. Every decision she made after the Cylon attack was purely based on emotion rather than logic:

She was embarrassed because her girlfriend turned out to be a Cylon sabatuer, so her main objective was to sadistically hurt and humiliate her rather than conduct a real interrogation.

She had to assume that Pegasus was the only remaining battlestar left in the fleet and it was damaged with a limited supply of weapons, but instead of getting her ship and crew to safety so they could regroup and decide on a rational course of action, she wants revenge and decides to go on the offensive against an overwhelming enemy.

When she discovers some humans have escaped the attack, instead of taking them under her protection, she decides to steal whatever she wants and plans to strip them of all useful material and take away any chance they had of survival. When these people naturally resist, she has them killed.

When one of her officers refuses to obey an irrational order, she gets mad and shoots him in the head with his own pistol.

Every decision she made was the exact opposite of the ones Adama made under the same circumstances. Adama takes the time to analyze a situation and come to the best conclusion while Cain merely went with emotional reactions.

However, I don't feel we really learned anything startingly new about Cain since we already knew she was heartless. To be truthful, she wasn't much different than the Cylons when it comes to her disregard for human life.

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MadAmosMalone
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Sorry, Kerra, I hafta agree with Monty about this one. I thought maybe I just wasn't paying much attention to the show and missed out on something that would justify Cain's actions. Monty's post sums up how I feel about Cain pretty concisely. It's one thing to make hard decisions. I would submit Lee had made a tough call when he decided to launch a missile at Starbuck and her team. To me, Lee's decision seemed a lot more rational than Cain's decision to raid the civilian flotilla.

Had I been her XO, it would be Cain dead on the deck by my sidearm instead of the other way around. I know "mutiny" is a dirty word but frankly I find this incarnation of Cain to be just plain loco. At least Lloyd Bridges' Cain from the original series was just gung-ho, not a bona-fide psychopath.

I certainly respect your opinion, Kerra and I look forward to your rebuttal. I'm just calling this one the way I see it. :)

At least the "reimagined" chrome toasters what with their throwbacks to the original series were way cool to look at. Loved seeing the old raider craft too. The effects on this one were quite impressive.
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Kerra
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Gosh you guys, I don't care if you disagree with me, in fact, I relish it. And remember this, I am not a BSG fan. I like the show and I tolerate its lack of humor only so far, but as far as it being one of the best scifi shows I do not hold it in high regards.

First, I want to start with this (sorry Monty you're first :D ...
"She was embarrassed because her girlfriend turned out to be a Cylon sabatuer, so her main objective was to sadistically hurt and humiliate her rather than conduct a real interrogation."

Oh yeah, and I know I would have done the same, and then afterward I would have walked into the room and killed her myself. I am not lying and if this shocks anyone my apologies. I loved when she went back into the room and just stared at that Cylon B*#ch. That Cylon was responsible for how many human deaths? That Cylon was responsible for how many colonies' destruction? That Cylon deserved every bit of what she got. I have no pity for her. None.

"She had to assume that Pegasus was the only remaining battlestar left ... she wants revenge and decides to go on the offensive against an overwhelming enemy.

When she discovers some humans have escaped the attack, ... she decides to ... strip them of all useful material ... When these people naturally resist, she has them killed."

And this shocks you? Do you believe that our miltary would be any different under these circumstances? That is why the hard decisions are left to those who will make them. Watch the movie, "28 Weeks Later." Is the fire bombing episode in the streets of London any different?

"Every decision she made was the exact opposite of the ones Adama made under the same circumstances. Adama takes the time to analyze a situation and come to the best conclusion while Cain merely went with emotional reactions."

Yes, and as I explained to my sons as we watched it what I hope the writers were trying to show was the two extreme differences in the commanders. Just remember Adama has left civilians behind also. And Madame president has authorized murder. In the BSG universe the ends always justify the means.

And Amos ...
"Had I been her XO, it would be Cain dead on the deck by my sidearm instead of the other way around. I know "mutiny" is a dirty word but frankly I find this incarnation of Cain to be just plain loco. At least Lloyd Bridges' Cain from the original series was just gung-ho, not a bona-fide psychopath."

So she was just shooting from the hip? Just gone crazy? If that's what you see then I cannot argue. But gung-ho wouldn't have made it out of space port alive. Didn't the space port attack remind you of the real life Pearl Harbor attack? At the point where she was going to shoot her XO, yes, someone should have stepped in, but those were extra, extra-ordinary conditions. In Cain's attack upon the Cylons they learn who the Cylon traitor is and how the Cylons have changed. Not only that, we as the audience learn just how far and deep the Cylon infiltration had become before the invasion. Every top ranking or professioned human must have had a Cylon working next to him or her, as confidant, best friend, lover. I'm not sure my emotions would be rational at that point either. The Cylons came to exterminate the human race.

How do you think Adama is going to react when he finds out that Tigh is a Cylon? Okay, certainly he is not going to torture Tigh as Cain tortured her lover, but I don't think he's going to be a happy guy.

Really, I love an extreme character. Its gives us so much more to talk about. And I loved the retro Cylons. So very B) .
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monty24llr
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I expect the person who believed she was the sole leader of the remaining human civilization to rise above her petty vindictiveness and do what was best for those under her protection. The best course would have been to put aside her injured pride and use whatever means necessary to get INFORMATION from the Cylon, not to order her to be tortured and raped for personal satisfaction.

There's a big difference between Adama having to leave people behind in order to save the majority of his people when the fleet came under attack and Cain deliberately stripping people of all defenses and vicariously murdering them when they wouldn't fall in line.

There's also a big difference between making hard decisions for the good of the majority and making decisions based on being mad at yourself for letting your guard down. Cain's motivation was revenge on her Cylon lover.

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MadAmosMalone
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Golly, Kerra, didn't know you had such a "harsh" streak about ya.


kinda excites me.... sorry, was that out loud? :)
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Kerra
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MadAmosMalone,Nov 25 2007
08:01 PM
Golly, Kerra, didn't know you had such a "harsh" streak about ya.


kinda excites me.... sorry, was that out loud? :)

Just remember, I've been a deputy sheriff in my lifetime and I have seen what normal people have never seen, and man's inhumanity to man never shocks me. Its when my hope for humankind lets me down that I get sad.

Oh, yeah, I own a side arm. :P


Cain's behavior does not shock me nor do I think that her behavior is out of the realm of possible results of the extreme situation set before her. Not everyone reacts in a rational way, or what others perceive as rational. Saving the human race means different things to different people. Be careful who you put in those high ranking places... you may end up with a battlestar commander whose a psychopath, or in an illegal war with a soveriegn country.

I understand they cut a lot about Cain's life out of this version of Razor. I am looking forward to seeing the uncut version.
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monty24llr
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Instead of handing over my sidearm, I would have had the Admiral confined to sickbay and ordered a psych evaluation.

All I can say is it's a shame that, in light of the writers' strike, the equivalent of two episodes were wasted on telling Cain's wacko story which didn't serve any real purpose.

But it was neat seeing the old Cylon models and hearing the "by your command" line.

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Kerra
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I am so sorry you didn't enjoy the story Monty. All that waiting and anticipation and you found it a terrible waste of time. Don't you just hate when that happens? I really feel for you. That's usually how I feel after every episode.

I wish I could do something to cheer you up. How's this??


Posted Image

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monty24llr
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Well, I wouldn't say I was waiting or anticipating, so it wasn't that it was so much a disappointment as it was a wasted opportunity. I knew Cain was certifiable going into it, so I wasn't shocked or surprized by her assinine choices. My biggest gripe was the herky jerky storytelling approach. I found it to be disjointed and jarring doing flash backs during a back story. Had they chosen to either tell Cain's revenge story or Lee's attack on the Cylon base story I would have found it to be much more satisfying. As it was, they didn't do full justice to either story. We knew that atrocities were committed by the Pegasus crew, so none of that came as a shock or revealed anything new. IMO the time would have been better spent on Lee's story and the Cylon base.

I am a big BSG fan and love the psychological/sociological issues it explores, but even though they fumbled the ball on this one, it just makes me appreciate the rest of the episodes of this excellent series.
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Kerra
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I agree with you on that point Monty... they should have chosen one story and stuck to it. But I believe that is one of the worst things about our TV storytellers these days. They just can't stick with one thing and make it interesting.

I am a fan of Heroes and I believe they are best at the flashback story-telling, but sometimes I get lost there too. And mentioning lost... the "Lost" writers are the absolute worst at jumping around a storyline.

I didn't really get lost with the flashbacks in the backstory so much, but I found it irritating that every time something important was about to be revealed they changed scenes. Properly done that is suppose to build suspense. Improperly done its just hash.

I can't pinpoint the moment I lost interest in Lee Adama. First season and in the miniseries I liked him. I just don't know when his behavior started grating on my nerves.

Oh well, one good thing... the commercial stated that the series begins in March, not April. Can we take that as a positive development?
:)
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monty24llr
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I always take anything the SciFi Channel states with a large grain of salt. Their batting average isn't exactly major league worthy.

As far as storytelling methods go, the flashbacks work for me on Lost because they serve to offer insight into the featured character and are germane to the current story. What I think will be irritating from now on will be the flashforwards that are apparently planned for upcoming episodes. But in a series as dark as BSG the suspense is better maintained when the story unfolds in linear fashion, and that includes backstory.
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geogirl
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Well, it's a little late but I'll throw my 2 cents into the conversation.

One of my favorite quotes goes something like this:

"If you can't set a good example then at least serve as a horrible warning" It is mostly meant as a joke but I think it actually would do well as a mantra for this episode.

I loved the character of Cain (not for what she did because yes, I agree it was wrong in so many ways) but because she served as a warning to what can happen to anyone when faced with the cruelties of war. Like Adama said...."Technically, there was nothing wrong with her decisions." Well yes, technically, if you remove all emotion and humanity, she did the exact right thing. She did what she needed to do to survive. This happens all too often in real life. Look at any country where there is abject poverty and lawlessness and you will see this reaction in many of its people. They do what they need to do to survive and there is very little thought of kindness or compassion. Those thoughts don't exist because they won't feed your family or worse...they get you killed.

Adama goes on to explain that he had been tempted to go down that path many times (remember in the mini series how his plan was to lead a counter attack and he was ready to go against the presidents orders) but there were many safeguards in place. The president, Saul, and Lee....all there, creating a persistent voice in his ear on the dangers of losing your humanity. Cain didn't have those safe guards and the sad fact is Cain's actions....as painful as they were to watch...were just as "human" as everyone else's.

I could make some points about how this all relates to present day and the war in Iraq and Abu Grabe but we are all intelligent people here and I'm sure you don't need me to point that out.

As for the rest of the story, I thought it was ok. I admit I was a little disappointed but I think that was mostly due to the fact that there was such a build up for it that it was doomed to not live up to my expectations.

So, here's my interesting question for the board. When the young Adama is in the Cylon lab and he gets grabbed by the hand coming out of the goo and then suddenly the hand disappears......did anyone else think that was kind of odd. Like maybe the cylons pulled some kind of switch-a-roo? I was just thinking when he looks up from the floor and doesn't see a hand they made it seem like he was imagining it but what if he was really a cylon version of Adma and they erased his memories up to that point so he wouldn't know he was a cylon (like what they did with Boomer. She didn't know she was a cylon either at first.)

Just a thought....
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monty24llr
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I've always thought Adama was going to turn out to the ultimate Cylon. so I think it's entirely plausible that they switched him. We already know that it's possible for Cylons to produce children with humans, so the fact that Adama is a father doesn't preclude him from being a Cylon.

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Kerra
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Razor, the Uncut Version hit the stores today.
I wish I could watch it.

Maybe this weekend.
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geogirl
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I just got mine in the mail today (pre-order from Amazon)

I am interested to watch it again because I understand it is the uncut version and I know they left out some scenes that showed more of Adm. Cain's background.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that's what disapointed me about this episode. I know some of you have said they could have done without the Cain part of the story all together but that's actually what I was looking forward to. That's what I thought Razor was suppose to be all about and I was surprised when we got the story about Lee running the ship and the mission to blow up the ....whatever it was.

What really would have made it better to me was if they focused on Pegasus and Cain. Maybe they could have shown some of the events that turned her into such a cold hearted person. Yes, I know she loved Gina who turned out to be a cylon but maybe they could have shown us some of the struggle she went through to get to that point instead of having her go from normal to psycho in 60 seconds flat.

Anyway, I'm hoping the uncut version will give me some of the backstory and maybe I'll enjoy it a little more.
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Kerra
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Okay Geo, I've got my hands on a copy of "Razor." I'll let you know what I think after I watch it.
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monty24llr
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So, has anyone had a chance to watch the uncut Razor? I'm anxious to know if it included any additional insight into what led to Cain's command decisions. Did it live up to your expectations, and is it worth $20.00? :unsure:
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MadAmosMalone
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It's weird you mention that because I just saw it today. The only extra insights we get are from Kendra's POV rather than Cain's.
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monty24llr
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I just think they took a totally wrong approach with this whole project. I don't think they needed to include Lee's mission at all. IMO this should have been purely the backstory of Cain and the Pegasus' crew. I feel the mission to find and destroy the abandoned Cylon project should have been a separate episode all together because they weren't able to do justice to either one, especially with the herky jerky storytelling technique.

I'm disappointed to hear they didn't offer any more enlightenment on Cain's character -- it's a shame because she really is a great character and deserved much better.
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MadAmosMalone
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monty24llr,Dec 16 2007
10:02 PM
I'm disappointed to hear they didn't offer any more enlightenment on Cain's character -- it's a shame because she really is a great character and deserved much better.

Y'know now that I think about it there was something pretty significant about Cain I neglected to mention. The reason I forgot to mention it was because I would have sworn it was in the non-extended episode. Now that I think back on it I may have goofed. Lemme just describe it and see if you all remember there being a scene like this in Razor.

Adama wasn't the only one with a flashback to the first Cylon war. Cain had her own as well.

She was a little girl and she, her sister Lucy and an adult male (presumably her father but I don't remember the precise dialog in the scene) were escaping a building under attack from the Cylons. The adult got wounded in a stairwell and told young Helena she was going to have to look after her sister and protect her. The two girls escaped the building, leaving him behind. As they got out into the open they could see Cylon spacecraft landing nearby.

Lucy tripped and hurt her foot just as another Cylon fighter landed almost right on top of them. Young Helena freaked and urged Lucy to get up and follow. Lucy stayed where she was, screaming for help. Helena just ran and didn't come back for Lucy. She hid in what looked to be a boxcar and tried to close the door behind her. Outside we hear Lucy's screams fade as the Cylons march in Helena's direction.

One Cylon walked past in one direction then another. Then we see the door pulled the rest of the way open. The Cylon walked right in on young Helena who defiantly picked up the pocket knife she so prominently displayed throughout this episode. The Cylon was about to shoot her when it suddenly froze, turned and walked out. As Helena ran back out to find her sister we hear crowd voices declaring the war is over. Helena only found Lucy's doll in the spot where Lucy was and we hear Cylon fighters blasting off.
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monty24llr
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No, that wasn't in the televised version. This gives a lot of insight into Cain's character; being forced to run away and leave both her father and sister to save herself certainly makes it more understandable that she wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice anyone who stood in her way to exact revenge.

I wonder why they chose to cut such an important scene; I would have cut a few of Starbuck's scenes so that one could be included.
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