Italian schools told to remove crucifixes

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Italian schools told to remove crucifixes
Topic Started: Nov 4 2009, 05:19 PM (71 Views)
Kahu	Nov 4 2009, 05:19 PM Post #1
Admin Posts: 8,942 Group: Administration Member #150 Joined: December 14, 2005	Italian schools told to remove crucifixes Reuters Last updated 07:49 04/11/2009 The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that Italian schools should remove crucifixes from classrooms, sparking uproar in Italy, where such icons are embedded in the national psyche. "This is an abhorrent ruling," said Rocco Buttiglione, a former culture minister who helped write papal encyclicals. "It must be rejected with firmness. Italy has its culture, its traditions and its history. Those who come among us must understand and accept this culture and this history," he said. The court ruling, which Italy said it would appeal, said crucifixes on school walls, a common sight that is part of every Italian's life, could disturb children who were not Christians. Italy has been in the throes of national debate on how to deal with a growing population of immigrants, mostly Muslims, and the court sentence is likely to become another battle cry for the centre-right government's policy to restrict newcomers. The Vatican spokesman said he would not comment until he knew more about the ruling but Italy's powerful bishops' conference said the ruling "evokes sadness and bewilderment." Members of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government bristled, weighing in with words such as "shameful," "offensive," "absurd," "unacceptable," and "pagan." Story Link



agate	Nov 5 2009, 04:21 AM Post #2
Admin Posts: 9,219 Group: Administration Member #203 Joined: February 2, 2006	I hope they stick to their stand and get it thrown out. After all it is their country and their heritage. We have had the same problem here and the same heated debates.



Begete	Nov 5 2009, 04:33 AM Post #3
Blue Star Member Posts: 1,701 Group: Member Member #85 Joined: September 18, 2005	I think it should depend on Italy's own constitution. If there is separation of church and state, then the cruxifixes should go. Not sure I understand the power of the European court of human rights. Does it have higher jurisdiction that each European Unions member's own constitution?



Kahu	Nov 5 2009, 11:51 AM Post #4
Admin Posts: 8,942 Group: Administration Member #150 Joined: December 14, 2005	There is a very clear distinction in France between church and state, and has been since 1789. England/UK seems to have gone through a bit of a battle within Europe with all sorts of things they took for granted .... Imperial weights & Measures, double decker London buses amongst other things. Italy as a modern nation is relatively young with the Vatican and the Venetian questions only being settled by Mussolini before WW2 ...... but of course with a much more diverse long history. You'd think it'll be a frosty Friday when the 'mother of parliaments' gives up its influence, but within Europe there are so many differences in government as well a Justice systems. 017



Delphi51	Nov 6 2009, 12:15 PM Post #5
Blue Star Member Posts: 1,423 Group: Member Member #441 Joined: October 10, 2006	But it may have a negative effect on their mathematics marks! The story is a boy was failing math in public school, so his mom moved him to the Catholic school. His math mark improved dramatically. When asked why, the boy said the first thing he saw in the new school was a guy nailed to a big plus sign and that made quite an impression on him.



hello	Nov 6 2009, 08:36 PM Post #6
Super Poster Posts: 330 Group: Member Member #520 Joined: February 3, 2007	:blowup: Boy, that makes me angry! It is just like here. We phone somewhere and we have to push one for English, 2 for French and 3 for Cantonese etc, etc,! Well the immigrants came to a country with 2 official languages ! It used to be that you HAD to speak one of the languages to live here in Canada.. Not now.. I go to shop and rarely hear English or French! If we moved to their countries we would HAVE to speak the language to get in!!!! Fair is Fair!What ever happened to that? And Italy has had the custom of the Crucifix for hundreds of years.. Why change for the newcomers? They didn't ask us to change!Here we have signs that say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas! I find it insulting. They came here to be Canadian and the politicians should butt out! I find most newcomers want to do what we do. And not one who is not Christian complains and in fact enjoys it all!!! If you want to be Canadian,,,, be one, and we should not have to change things for them ,,, they should adapt!As we should, if we moved to another country.And learn to talk to us.And best of all, become friends! blue wave32 The Australian PM said it all and I do not have it in front of me but he does not mince words at all! Be Australian or get out!!! huh099 :mellowyellow: Very strong language but it made sense... I do not think Immigrants want us to change at all!!! But I wish I could get to know some but they do not speak one our 2 languages! Must be very frustating for them... Sure is for us that were born here. Well I will get off the soap box now..... Sorry if I upset anyone.. But we are an English speaking and French speaking country! What happened? :soapbox.gif: Edited by hello, Nov 6 2009, 08:39 PM.



Trotsky	Nov 10 2009, 03:32 AM Post #7
Gold Star Member Posts: 3,784 Group: Member Member #79 Joined: September 8, 2005	If Italy cannot separate Church from State they should be thrown out of the European Union. It seems quite simple to me. Put crucifixes in CHURCHES and COMPUTERS, and books, in schools. Respect culture and history YES, but religion has no part in that. If you get a history question wrong you have displayed ignorance, if you get a RELIGIOUS tenet wrong you are guilty of HERESY! Quite a difference. The mangled body of Jesus Christ, Savior for Catholics has no place in any public school. In fact, mangled bodies have no place being shown to toddlers even in Catholic schools...it's BARBARIC. Edited by Trotsky, Nov 10 2009, 03:43 AM.



Kahu	Nov 10 2009, 09:21 AM Post #8
Admin Posts: 8,942 Group: Administration Member #150 Joined: December 14, 2005	Delphi51 Nov 6 2009, 12:15 PM But it may have a negative effect on their mathematics marks! I heard that story too Delphi ..... biggrin 04



Kahu	Nov 10 2009, 09:40 AM Post #9
Admin Posts: 8,942 Group: Administration Member #150 Joined: December 14, 2005	Trotsky Nov 10 2009, 03:32 AM Respect culture and history YES, but religion has no part in that. In most english speaking societies that is certainly the norm ..... but in the case of modern Italy you cannot separate the culture, or the history, from the religion .... it is an integral part of the culture. Mussolini solved the problem of the Vatican State and the Venetian Republic, which Napoleon III couldn't, before WWII ....... but San Marino is still independent and not part of the EU.



Trotsky	Nov 11 2009, 04:42 AM Post #10
Gold Star Member Posts: 3,784 Group: Member Member #79 Joined: September 8, 2005	On a purely practical note, I went to Catholic Parochial School and we started the schoolday with Mass (say 45 minutes) and then the first class was always RELIGION...Catechism (50 minutes)...then after this 2 hour waste of time we learned something useful. After luunch it was time for Bible History...another wasted hour. So that's 3 hours out of the school day down the drain with useless superstitious yammering and frightening children about Hell and obedience and the evils of "touching oneself." Even into high school, the Catechism was replaced by things like Church History or Apologetics but still the same old waste of time. ANd still the mangled mess of a Christ on the cross that we children had put there becasue we are so evil. That kind of bullshit is mind and psyche destroying and has no place in civilized society. Edited by Trotsky, Nov 11 2009, 04:45 AM.



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