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| Sun Room | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 13 2014, 04:57 PM (1,641 Views) | |
| campy | Oct 31 2014, 09:29 AM Post #46 |
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Handyman Extraordinaire
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Who picked the paint colors? My personal research claims 97% of the paint on a wall is picked by the female gender. They had considered a female pope until she came in with colour samples to paint over the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel because it was 'dated'. Ecru I believe was the choice. |
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| Delphi51 | Oct 31 2014, 12:38 PM Post #47 |
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DW took care of the colors - and most of the painting. I never did maintenance on our windows other than scraping and painting. Quite a treat to have lost that job! The house had double glaze in wood frames for its first 35 or 40 years. There was some fog in some of them. No leaks in the 5 year old ones so far. They are factory sealed packs that look like they are good for quite a few years. I was told the Argon will leak away but I don't think it will make a lot of difference. I guess the noble gas carries no rotational energy as it connects. How much difference would that make, Trotsky? I don't recall ever having storm windows. Oh, when I was a little kid but I think my dad left them on all year round. I remember the cracked ones had a pair of buttons sown on the crack to hold the glass together. The wind blew nicely through that house! |
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| Darcie | Oct 31 2014, 01:06 PM Post #48 |
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Skeptic
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I have double glazed windows here and a little over 19 feet of windows in the living room. Some are double glazed, the ones that do not open. They are the responsibility of the condo. The window company came and put a device on the pane which had a dial that moved. The man told me that it registered whether or not the gas had escaped. Mine were OK. |
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| wildie | Oct 31 2014, 01:40 PM Post #49 |
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Veteran Member
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laugh123 |
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| wildie | Oct 31 2014, 01:54 PM Post #50 |
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Veteran Member
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At my cottage, I had double glazed windows installed in the early 90s and none have had any maintenance problems. At a later date, I installed a none opening sky-light which is gas filled and its been good also! In my present home someone installed double glazed, gas filled windows that are dated 1999 and they are without maintenance issues as well! These windows are without doubt the nicest windows that I have ever seen. They are double hung and can be swung out from the inside, to allow cleaning of the outside surfaces. Maintenance issues here, are unheard of! |
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| Trotsky | Nov 3 2014, 01:54 AM Post #51 |
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Big City Boy
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That's your best post this season. :snowflake: |
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| Trotsky | Nov 3 2014, 02:18 AM Post #52 |
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Big City Boy
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The seeming paradox comes from the fact that a window pane cuts down the loss of warmth a little dependent on the temperature differential. Adding a second pane might cut even that by half, for argument sake, so then the second pain is much warmer than the outer passing little heat into the room. So then adding another pane might cut the heat from the warm pain by half again (again, dependent on the temperature differential with the inside of the middle pane. So you might be looking at 1 + .5 + .25 etc. You can see that progression gets to a limit where the last pane adds no further heat resistance at all. Good storm windows are terrific. Assume you have a tight outer window and then 3 inches inside you have ANOTHER tight storm window. Cheap and all surfaces are easily washable. Ugly? No argument there. But less ugly than the many people who staple up plastic sheets every winter. Nothing can beat that for ugly and it means you cannot even open your windows. We lived in a rent controlled (dirt cheap) old hole long ago (but big apartment with real plaster and 1918 type luxury marble, solid oak floors.) Windows of death...leaked like sieves (wood, single paned, and 70 years old). The slumlord screwed on $39 storm windows and voila, it was like we moved to the Carribbean. I'm trying to frame in my mind the difference between 1/2 inch of convective space compared to 3 inches...not sure but I think the 3 inch space is the winner every time? I could be wrong though. Another angle though, some windows are very leaky, like old double hung...add another window of any kind and odds are good you will stop or slow the air leaks. From some limited experience, my guesstimate is that 25% of sealed windows will fail in 15 years. (I've got double glaze that is showing the slightest haze on one pane (out of 9), almost like dust inside but I am trying to avoid it rather than make a fuss. And it's only 25 x 30 double hung, so if I need to replace it, the cost should not be too high. BIG plus for double and triple glaze is QUIET...same for storm windows. This is important in a big city. A small minus for multiple glaze: if you are a perfectionist you will never get your windows perfectly clean...there is always SOMETHING inside, maybe only a spot of schmutz in a corner. Teeny-tiny maybe, but SOMETHING. Here's a trick we used with last apartment with electrical resistance heating $$$$$. Sew magnets into heavy puddled drapes so they stick to the metal studs in the wall. That's even better than a third pane of glass. On super cold sub-zero days we would often see 50-55 degrees between the window and the curtain while the room was at 70. So the ultimate cold transfer was only over a very small temperature gradation. My bugaboo, and it's almost universal is the STUPID aluminum, steel, or metal coated vinyl frames without thermal breaks on all these damned super windows. The glass is cool, doing its job, while you get ICE forming on the inside of the frames. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Imagine quadruple paned krypton filled $1000 windows with aluminum frames. Edited by Trotsky, Nov 3 2014, 03:17 AM.
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| Delphi51 | Nov 3 2014, 12:26 PM Post #53 |
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The frame conductivity may be the explanation! Adding another pane has no effect on that. I can already feel that the frame is cooler than the glass. I remember thinking I should try to fill the frames with foam and DW warning that the expanding foam might break the frame. Also really difficult to get that insulating foam into a confined space. The optimum spacing between panes is around half an inch according to a website I read the other day. Larger than that, convection becomes important and heat flow increases. Conduction is linear - the temperature changes equally over every delta x of insulation. Formula and calculator here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatcond.html So doubling the R value halves the heat flow. The constant k in the formula depends only on the conductivity of the material. An interesting consequence of this is that at -20 outside and +20 inside, the freezing point is at the middle of the wall. You can't have your inside air going there because it will make ice that will melt in the spring and wreck your insulation. The vapour barrier must go on the inside. But the electricians poke holes in it. So the really serious builders make a 6 inch wall with a vapour barrier on its inside, then put a 4 inch wall inside of that with no vapour barrier. The electricians, plumbers, etc can play around in the 4 inch wall without damaging the vapor barrier and there is no freezing on the barrier unless it is really cold outside. Edited by Delphi51, Nov 3 2014, 12:36 PM.
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| campy | Nov 3 2014, 09:06 PM Post #54 |
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Handyman Extraordinaire
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The nights are cold and no sun for warmth. That's were you get the most heat loss. So drapes or curtains are the answer. And certain panes and frames are suitable in one climate zone but not another. Wood frames work the best but need more maintenance. |
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| Trotsky | Nov 4 2014, 04:22 AM Post #55 |
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Big City Boy
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Some really good metal windows have thermal breaks in the frames, usually wood or very firm foam. No way of telling without seeing a cross-section. But my last two have had vinyl convered metal and once the humidity hits 40% inside (my goal for my nasal passages so I must use a humidifier in Winter) and the outside temperature drops to freezing, first the water starts running down the frames and then the ice starts forming. So I know I have no thermal breaks. I guess the problem with these breaks is that they vastly weaken the strength of an all metal frame. Campy is correct. You cannot beat wooden frames for heat flow resistance but they are a maintenance pain: painting, warping, absorbing moisture, poor fit, sticking. I think you'd be hard pressed to find them anymore. Wood frames with double and triple glazing might be an engineering nightmare. Look at this jazzy frame with polyamide breaks between outer and inner aluminum Posted Image But see, all that is avoided with old ugly storm windows. No matter how fancy you get, two windows are way better than one. Edited by Trotsky, Nov 4 2014, 04:29 AM.
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| Darcie | Nov 4 2014, 05:56 AM Post #56 |
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Skeptic
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Would you say that the shrink wrap we put over windows helps? I know it seems to help stop the cold wind as last year I could see the wrap bulge out on windy days. In my richer days I had plexiglass frames made to put inside my windows in my house, was quite expensive but it cut the heating bill by about 1/3rd. Looked into it for here, OMG the cost would be prohibitive. |
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| Dana | Nov 4 2014, 06:31 AM Post #57 |
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WWS Hummingbird Guru & Wildlife photographer extrordinaire
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I still have those on the bedroom windows. A glass man offered me a deal to do that 20 yrs ago when he picked up the remnants of the trade from another glass man who was retiring. It was cheap at the price and though not as tight as one would like, still cut the sound as well as the cold saving me money on heating for many years. The new owner is slowly replacing the windows with modern double panes, a tough, noisy, dusty, job with the stucco exterior. |
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| campy | Nov 4 2014, 07:19 AM Post #58 |
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Handyman Extraordinaire
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Here,s is a top grade window made in Canada. http://www.loewen.com/windows/index.html These are to of the line and are low maintenance. You don't paint them. Top quality wood. |
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| Trotsky | Nov 4 2014, 01:32 PM Post #59 |
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Big City Boy
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Darcie, It helps immensely especially if you can get it tight enough to bulge indicating it is resisting air flow from a leaky window. It works as well as a storm window, probably better because you have no cold metal frame. The downside is that it is a pain to install and uninstall, prevents you from opening your window if you forget about a pot on the stove and is about as pretty as a moustache on the Mona Lisa. But last housing was electric resistance heat and in spite of elevators, doormen, and parquet floors, huge sliding double paned picture windows, Hudson River views (what passes for "luxury" today laugh123 ) lots of people glued or stapled up the plastic. No denying they work as advertised. Some few people use them here although I cannot imagine why. We have three boilers that could rival anything on the Titanic and the heat is prix fixe...included in maintenance bill. With both radiators on and a sunny Winter day, we could fry eggs on the desk and all last year we had both radiators on all day in mid-Winter perhaps for 2 days. Edited by Trotsky, Nov 4 2014, 01:40 PM.
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| Trotsky | Nov 4 2014, 01:46 PM Post #60 |
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Big City Boy
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I mean really though, How can you beat these prices: http://www.lowes.com/Windows-Doors/Windows/Storm-Windows/_/N-1z11pon/pl#! |
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