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What is our wisest response?
Topic Started: Nov 15 2015, 02:28 PM (1,097 Views)
Darcie
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Skeptic
Sent to me by my granddaughter in BC - She didn't say where she got it but I think it is a lot right on.

Quote:
 

In his address to the nation on Friday night, French President François Hollande said: "This is a terrible ordeal which once again assails us. We know where it comes from, who these criminals are, who these terrorists are."

On Saturday morning he identified the source as the Islamic State, also known by its Arabic acronym Daesh. Even at this early stage we can draw some reasonable conclusions about IS just from the nature of the attacks. We can speculate equally reasonably about their motives and goals, and our wisest response.

First, this was a highly professional operation. The only recent attack like Paris was in Mumbai in 2008, when a handful of young Pakistanis, trained by Pakistan's intelligence agency ISI, assaulted a city of 12 million and sustained the attack for four days. That operation took years of planning and training.

So if IS is in fact the instigator, it has serious resources and skills. Many groups in the Middle East and South Asia have had over 30 years' practical experience in both combat and terrorist action. The Islamic State didn't come out of nowhere; its roots go back to the "Arab Afghans" who fought the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s. That it evaded Western intelligence eavesdropping suggests very sophisticated communications ability.

A strategic attack

Second, the planning means it was highly premeditated, not just retaliation for some recent insult to the Islamic State or another group -- like the Charlie Hebdo killings almost a year ago. That means it's a serious provocation, strategic rather than tactical. The attackers chose Paris not because of any particular French offence, but because when Paris is attacked the entire West feels attacked. The entire West, not just France, can be expected to react.

Third, the reaction will punish the innocent more than the guilty. A routine terrorist goal is to delegitimize its enemy by goading it into violent repression. European Muslims in general, and refugees in particular, will suffer for this attack. Some on Twitter have pointed out that the terrorists are exactly what the refugees are running from, but the tweets are already lost in the firestorm.

Anti-Muslim backlash in turn will stress all the countries now dealing with refugees, from Italy and Greece to Sweden and Finland. European racists will be emboldened to attack the refugees and their shelters. Sweden has already seen numerous arson attacks against refugees.

Those still in Lebanon, Turkey, and Jordan will stay where they are, putting more stress on their hosts. Turkey alone has 650,000 refugees in camps, and Jordan almost as many. Lebanon has 1.5 million. (And we think 25,000 would be a burden.)

Fourth, we could see an international demand for a kind of world war against Islamic radicalism. With Europe, the United States, Canada, and many Muslim nations dragged into a serious counterattack, the Islamic State and Al-Qaeda would welcome the opportunity for martyrdom.

But before martyrdom they could hope to see other Muslim nations’ current governments -- all of them betrayers of true Islam, in Islamist eyes -- shaken and perhaps overthrown, from Morocco to Indonesia. That would leave ordinary Muslims with no choice but to side with the extremists or flee.

Weakening all Western nations

Not only the Muslim governments would suffer. The French government will go through a major upheaval, with a purge of its intelligence service. Other European Union and North American governments will be equally furious with their spies' failure to spot the Paris attacks.

Meanwhile, our governments are likely to stress and divide their own people, whether they punish their local Muslims or protect them. Politically divided, Western nations will be less of a threat to the Islamists.

Fifth, we'd better recognize our own part in this mess. Many books, including the recent Black Flags: The Rise of Isis, have documented the opportunity George W. Bush gave the Islamists by his invasion of Iraq and utter lack of postwar planning.

Thanks to Bush, a Jordanian street thug named Abu Musab al-Zarqawi could recruit thousands of Iraqi soldiers and bureaucrats who'd been sacked by the American occupiers. Zarqawi orchestrated the Iraqi insurgency that continues to this day, and which has now migrated into Syria as the Islamic State.

Canada, thanks to Jean Chretien, stayed out of that obvious quagmire, and Stephen Harper nudged us into it. Now Justin Trudeau wants to get us out yet again, which has suddenly become a much harder job than it was last week. When you find yourself in a stampede, you've got to move or be trampled underfoot.

Or you somehow keep the stampede from even starting. Surely by now even the most narcissistic Western governments must understand how well the Islamists have taken our measure. They know just how to drive us crazy. Like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown, they can predict we'll end up on our asses.

So the right response is not to take their bait. Hunt down the attackers, interrogate the survivors, and put serious pressure on any government that in any way aided the attacks.

Ferociously suppress anti-Muslim, anti-refugee agitation. Invite local Muslims to cooperate in identifying Islamic extremism's supporters -- they are ordinary Muslims' worst enemies, after all. Find the attackers' sources of funding, and choke them off.

Then remember that revenge is a dish best eaten cold.
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Trotsky
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Big City Boy
angora
Nov 17 2015, 03:06 AM
Even if Obama decided to and was successful in bringing every American combatant home there is no way he could persuade the rest of the world to follow suit just on his orders. So the violence would go on minus the efforts of the USA. I don't believe for a minute that ISIS would discontinue terrorising the rest of the world nor would they spare the US.

I am pretty sure attacks on the U.S. would stop. As for attacks on the rest of the world, that is for THEM to choose. They can continue to wage war or not.
I think also, if France or the UK were to take this action, attack on their soil would stop.

This is all quid pro quo, always has been back to daddy Bush's invasion of Iraq, perhaps back to Saladin. It's not rocket science, just the way every escalating conflict goes. It stops only when somebody stops.
We must STOP.
Edited by Trotsky, Nov 17 2015, 05:24 AM.
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Delphi51
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What Middle East countries are supporting ISIS? I think all those countries are frightened of IS. the armoured cars the Saudis are buying are far more likely to be used in defence against IS. IS has openly declared it wants to wipe out all the governments in the Middle East.

I think we are looking at something rather like the Nazi party in the 1930s. Left alone, IS will take over the Islamic states just as the NAZIs took over Germany. Then they will try for the world.

What would have been the best way to stop the NAZIs? Leave them alone until they conquered Europe was "a very close run thing."
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Bitsy
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Delphi51
Nov 17 2015, 05:57 AM
I think we are looking at something rather like the Nazi party in the 1930s. Left alone, IS will take over the Islamic states just as the NAZIs took over Germany. Then they will try for the world.

What would have been the best way to stop the NAZIs? Leave them alone until they conquered Europe was "a very close run thing."
I disagree, ISIS is a cult.
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angora
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WWS Book Club Coordinator
I think Hitler was cultish too. And I also think that saying that most muslims don't support or agree with Isis is the same as saying that most/many Germans didn't support Hitler and his views but we bombed them anyway.
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Durgan
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At the height of Hitlers popularity almost every German was compliant. Even if one disagreed they could object at the peril of their lives. Few people are willing to take such a risk.

Appeasement not an option from where I sit. Hug a Muslim has it limits. They had better get their house in order among themselves or face the consequences.

Chamberlain after signing an agreement with Hitler. Peace in our time. 30 September 1938.
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friendshipgal
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Guess everyone wants their own Trudashians
Trotsky
Nov 17 2015, 05:17 AM
I am pretty sure attacks on the U.S. would stop. As for attacks on the rest of the world, that is for THEM to choose. They can continue to wage war or not.
I think also, if France or the UK were to take this action, attack on their soil would stop.

This is all quid pro quo, always has been back to daddy Bush's invasion of Iraq, perhaps back to Saladin. It's not rocket science, just the way every escalating conflict goes. It stops only when somebody stops.
We must STOP.
Are you sure they would stop, regardless of Bush etc. because we cannot go back in time.

I wonder if Glenn Dyer still believes that terrorism is overblown (as per one of his 2014 articles) That was Glenn Dyer's solution too, stay away do nothing, just simply ignore the attacks, provocations and loss of lives, an approach seemingly favoured by the left. The Islamists are now metastasizing to other parts of the Muslim world as well as infiltrating the West.

The M.E. today isn't ruled by despots per se, It is ruled by lunatics intent on savagely killing people and building a caliphate, intent on destruction of the entire world by holy war. Should we just leave them alone to get stronger?

France will be convening Parliament and I suspect this will be to declare and carry out war against Isis. There's a real possibility that they will invoke NATO article five to call on the allies to join them.

This presents an interesting problem for Canada and the United States both led by idiots who refuse to even acknowledge the existence of Islamic terrorism. In Canada's case, it's possible we could default on our NATO obligations.

The U.S. is in an interesting situation. Congress has the power to declare war, but it's a power that has only ever been exercised at the request of the President. The current President is effectively allied with ISIL. Congress, on the other hand, is controlled by Republicans who are itching to declare war. Would Obama veto a declaration of war? It seems likely that he would and in so doing would have to expressly use his power to default on the United States obligations to NATO.

We could easily see the end of NATO with both North American partners defaulting while one of our allies has been attacked in its own soil.

Just to ad, Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall is asking the gov't to reconsider the timeline for the refugees, and a former Liberal cabinet minister is speaking against Trudeau's decisions.
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Bitsy
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Durgan
Nov 17 2015, 08:07 AM
Appeasement not an option from where I sit. Hug a Muslim has it limits.
What do you see as appeasement to Muslims?
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Bitsy
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I have to wonder where FSG gets information such as this.

"The U.S. is in an interesting situation. Congress has the power to declare war, but it's a power that has only ever been exercised at the request of the President. The current President is effectively allied with ISIL. Congress, on the other hand, is controlled by Republicans who are itching to declare war. Would Obama veto a declaration of war? It seems likely that he would and in so doing would have to expressly use his power to default on the United States obligations to NATO."

Here is the reality not the alternate reality of ill-informed conservative supporters. They didn't want to go on record as being for war. That may have changed now with the Paris attacks but I will have to read a few more sources before forming an opinion.


Quote:
 
And President Obama's decision last week to order up 50 special operations forces to Syria has revived calls for Congress to weigh in on the war against the Islamic State. Obama himself has urged lawmakers to vote on giving him specific authority to wage that war. But the Republican-led Congress has resisted. As NPR's David Welna reports, many lawmakers don't see what's in it for them.


http://www.npr.org/2015/11/05/454829097/gop-lawmakers-reluctant-to-act-on-isis-war-authorization-request

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Trotsky
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Big City Boy
I don't like the comparisons between IS (I like that shortened version) and Hitler.

Hitler was a cult figure, a unification around THE MAN, and IS is more a multinational cross border unification and yes, they seem determined to remove the heads of all the "state" leaders in the Middle East, not unlike the French Revolution.

Similarities are also to the goals of "World Communism" <humming the Nationale here.>

Think also on this: Germany was perhaps the manufacturing giant of the world in the 1930's. IS wouldn't have a single gun or bullet had not it been made elsewhere...probably in the U.S., Russia, China or FRANCE. Their takeover of the world would have to be done with scimitars if not for their being armed by others. They are not a real threat except perhaps to rich fat princes of the House of Saud. Their removal is only painful to the oil companies...nobody else on Earth could GAS.

If we stop killing IS, they may likely stop killing us.

Looks like France has gone to Martial Law...how predictable.
Edited by Trotsky, Nov 17 2015, 10:51 AM.
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Durgan
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Bitsy
Nov 17 2015, 08:12 AM
Durgan
Nov 17 2015, 08:07 AM
Appeasement not an option from where I sit. Hug a Muslim has it limits.
What do you see as appeasement to Muslims?
Appeasement:If we do this, ISIS will do that, as most of the posts indicate.

First ISIS is not even defined. My information is that they are not a single identity, but a conglomeration of smaller organizations.
Second their aims of violent actions appears to be without a meaningful purpose(s).
We, the targets, cannot tolerate such behavior and indeed will not do so at least judging about the throwing about of the rhetoric.

How does one go about defeating a ghost? I am sure ISIS in Syria are not conglomerating in areas where they can be taken out by air power without much collateral damage, meaning destruction of innocents assuming there is such. I assume there is really no-one to bring to a conference due to ISIS being such a scattered organization.

Every Western country is at risk of some brutal act. Our only defense appears to be constant vigilance and reactingg to the attacks in the appropriate manner.

Israel could be used as a model. They are surrounded by enemies and live constantly under the threat of attack by their neighbors. Peace in out time, I doubt not. The new reality.
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Oldsalt
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Darcie
Nov 15 2015, 02:28 PM
Sent to me by my granddaughter in BC - She didn't say where she got it but I think it is a lot right on.


Its an article from the Tyee

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/11/14/Paris-Attacks/
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Trotsky
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Big City Boy
I use "quid pro quo" in this scenario to mean if you bomb me, I will bomb YOU.

We are the invaders here.

What would be the reaction of Canadians if China invaded British Columbia? Would Canadians who shot up Beijing in response properly be called "terrorists?"

Edited by Trotsky, Nov 17 2015, 10:55 AM.
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Dana
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We would have to check the TPP on that one, Trotsky !
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David
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Quote:
 
The current President is effectively allied with ISIL.



This is an effectively ridiculous statement.
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Durgan
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Oldsalt
Nov 17 2015, 10:51 AM
Darcie
Nov 15 2015, 02:28 PM
Sent to me by my granddaughter in BC - She didn't say where she got it but I think it is a lot right on.


Its an article from the Tyee

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/11/14/Paris-Attacks/
Good article. Close to my views anyway.
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